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Reduced frequency of Cross-Country services from Bournemouth to Manchester?

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Philip

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Once Avanti start running their Azumas and cascade their 221s to CrossCountry, will this mean they have enough Voyagers for the best of both worlds; double sets Manchester-South Coast whilst retaining the hourly Manchester to Bristol/South West service?
 
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The Planner

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Once Avanti start running their Azumas and cascade their 221s to CrossCountry, will this mean they have enough Voyagers for the best of both worlds; double sets Manchester-South Coast whilst retaining the hourly Manchester to Bristol/South West service?
New forum bingo line. There is no confirmation to say that is even going to happen, even if its the blindingly obvious thing to do.
 

dk1

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Once Avanti start running their Azumas and cascade their 221s to CrossCountry, will this mean they have enough Voyagers for the best of both worlds; double sets Manchester-South Coast whilst retaining the hourly Manchester to Bristol/South West service?

Don’t you mean once Avanti start running their Nishis? ;)
 

sprinterguy

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That's on Saturdays. Weekdays it's a change at Birmingham New Street onto the 19:04 Bournemouth train (hopefully it won't be 4 coaches)!
That one's booked for a 5-car set, which doesn't preclude a 4-car turning up when diagrams get mixed about (It's happened one day this week so far).
 

Watershed

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Once Avanti start running their Azumas and cascade their 221s to CrossCountry, will this mean they have enough Voyagers for the best of both worlds; double sets Manchester-South Coast whilst retaining the hourly Manchester to Bristol/South West service?
The DfT has shown its penchant for penny-wise pound-foolish cost cutting time and again; it would be dangerous to assume that Avanti's off-lease 221s will necessarily be taken on by XC.
 

nw1

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New forum bingo line. There is no confirmation to say that is even going to happen, even if its the blindingly obvious thing to do.

The joys of 2020s rail. ;)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

True, but LNER does operate 2tph.

If DfT won't let XC have extra units, then the only sensible answer does appear to be to retrench further to ensure capacity on the core. As you say not running north of York is one option, as is removing all the occasional extensions (stuff like the Penzance-Aberdeen) and just running the regular interval core, i.e. Plymouth-York, Manchester-Reading and Manchester-Bristol (I think I've got that right) plus the 170 services.

I would agree to some extent but does "Manchester-Reading" involve curtailing the Bournemouth services at Reading? I think there are too many through passengers south of Reading for this to be feasible. Plus, there is no other alternative through service from Reading to Southampton and Bournemouth, so you'd lose that link too.

However Reading to York does make sense, as there are plenty of services from York to Newcastle already.



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All cross county train used to stop their

The removal of Brockenhurst from certain XC services does seem to me to be a completely pointless step, with little in the way of discernible benefits but significant disadvantages. Doubtless the trains which skip it arrive at Bournemouth at the same time anyway (and even if they don't, cutting 2 minutes off a multi-hour journey is scarcely a significant advantage...)
 
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dk1

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The removal of Brockenhurst from certain XC services does seem to me to be a completely pointless step, with little in the way of discernible benefits but significant disadvantages. Doubtless the trains which skip it arrive at Bournemouth at the same time anyway (and even if they don't, cutting 2 minutes off a multi-hour journey is scarcely a significant advantage...)

It’s easy to see how when running as a franchise it was important to call at stations such as this & Chesterfield if only to get a slice of the local revenue. Now as a concession & with DfT at the controlling end this no longer matters as much.
 

irish_rail

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Last couple of days I've seen nothing but single 220s in the south west. No 221s whatsoever, and no pairings. This is of course anecdotal, but I've counted around about 8 different 4 car sets in last 2 days , all operating singly, and nothing else. And this is before the HSTs are withdrawn?!!! What the hell happened to the 221s and the pairings? All on the Reading route one assumes??
 

Dr Day

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It’s easy to see how when running as a franchise it was important to call at stations such as this & Chesterfield if only to get a slice of the local revenue. Now as a concession & with DfT at the controlling end this no longer matters as much.
Maybe, but some of these off pattern minor stops in ‘intercity’ services go back to BR days when it made sense from a passenger carrying perspective to have a bigger train carrying a high volume local flow at a peak time when it happened to be passing. The principles of this shouldn’t have gone away- indeed arguably with a more centrally controlled railway we should be seeing more of this. Ruins takt type timetabling and neat definitions of which TOCs should stop where but more suited to a closer overall matching of supply to demand.

There have probably been previous threads with examples but there used to be an off-pattern Didcot call in the cross country service that left Oxford around 1730 which provided additional peak capacity for Oxford-Didcot commuters which wasn’t needed the rest of the day and possibly freed up a DMU for peak capacity strengthening for a branch line. Similar in the morning peak. But probably straying off topic.
 

dk1

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Maybe, but some of these off pattern minor stops in ‘intercity’ services go back to BR days when it made sense from a passenger carrying perspective to have a bigger train carrying a high volume local flow at a peak time when it happened to be passing. The principles of this shouldn’t have gone away- indeed arguably with a more centrally controlled railway we should be seeing more of this. Ruins takt type timetabling and neat definitions of which TOCs should stop where but more suited to a closer overall matching of supply to demand.

There have probably been previous threads with examples but there used to be an off-pattern Didcot call in the cross country service that left Oxford around 1730 which provided additional peak capacity for Oxford-Didcot commuters which wasn’t needed the rest of the day and possibly freed up a DMU for peak capacity strengthening for a branch line. Similar in the morning peak. But probably straying off topic.

To a lesser degree EMR do this on their Liverpool-Norwich service. Additional calls are made at various stations along the entire route inc Attleborough & Wymondham to assist with peak morning flows into Norwich with calls on the 15:48, 16:56 & 17:50 return in the afternoon/evening.
 

sprinterguy

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Last couple of days I've seen nothing but single 220s in the south west. No 221s whatsoever, and no pairings. This is of course anecdotal, but I've counted around about 8 different 4 car sets in last 2 days , all operating singly, and nothing else. And this is before the HSTs are withdrawn?!!! What the hell happened to the 221s and the pairings? All on the Reading route one assumes??
Of the 11 northbound departures from Plymouth on South West - North East services each day, the following have been more than 4-car formations this week:

Monday: 2 x 221, 3 x Double set, 2 x HST
Tuesday: 3 x 221, 3 x Double set, 2 x HST
Wednesday: 3 x 221, 3 x Double set, 1 x HST (And 1S53 unknown)
Thursday: 3 x 221, 3 x Double set, 2 x HST
Friday: 2 x 221, 3 x Double set, 0 x HST
 
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RPI

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If XC were to curtail the Reading to Newcastle into Reading to York, would that provide enough sets to extend the Bristol to Manchester to Exeter instead. That would then provide actual decent connections on to the greater south west. Running the voyager under the wires from York to Newcastle seems wasteful in the extreme when there are God knows how many trains per hour already running on that route for passengers to change onto at York. Surely it would be like for like in terms of units needed as Bristol to Exeter is actually less time than York to Newcastle.
There aren't many paths now for the Exeter to Manchester services, they used to depart Exeter at around xx52 on the up, these paths every two hours have now been taken by the two hourly Penzance to Cardiff services.

Currently the 07:27 (ish) service from Plymouth North is a double set and is often full and standing between Newton Abbot and Exeter, to the point where when it has been a single set passengers get left behind at Newton Abbot.
 

WibbleWobble

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The removal of Brockenhurst from certain XC services does seem to me to be a completely pointless step, with little in the way of discernible benefits but significant disadvantages. Doubtless the trains which skip it arrive at Bournemouth at the same time anyway (and even if they don't, cutting 2 minutes off a multi-hour journey is scarcely a significant advantage...)
And Brockenhurst isn't just a small stop, it's an important interchange for Lymington and the Isle of Wight via Wightlink. Not only that, it serves a very large sixth form college which has large volumes of traffic from right across Dorset and Hampshire.
 

Rich McLean

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New forum bingo line. There is no confirmation to say that is even going to happen, even if its the blindingly obvious thing to do.
Let's hope the ROSCOs have the storage form them (221s) as they come off lease and wait until after the January 2025 GE and see what happens. Still a chance that 175s, ex AWC 221s and Ex EMR 222s all head off for scrap.
 

railfan99

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XC actually need more trains to deliver more seats, as anyone recently left behind or squashed into a vestibule will attest to. B
The full hourly service to Plymouth and Edinburgh returns in May along with more services extending to Penzance.

On 29 September 2022 as part of my two month first class Eurailpass, I travelled on the 1453 hours Taunton to Birmingham New Street.

My notes for that day aren't clear when it comes to the consist but I believe 221135 as car E was at the front with car A (in which I travelled) 221139.

From searching the National Rail site, this train doesn't seem to be operating on weekdays as it was then.

I walked through part of the set, and found only six car B seats unoccupied (car number 60489 if correctly recorded). Car A was not full, though busier after Britsol as a total of 11 joined at two stops (Temple Meads and Parkway).

Your patronage was impressive. There were very few poorly patronised trains. Punctuality was better than some assert, with this train a minute late at Taunton but four and a half minutes late at Birmingham New Street on arrival. Hardly disastrous.

Without going OT, this year I have already included Barton on Humber in my itinerary, and at the terminus even though I have a pass I may buy a child's ticket to the next station to bump up the figures by a grand total of one. :lol:
 

sprinterguy

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On 29 September 2022 as part of my two month first class Eurailpass, I travelled on the 1453 hours Taunton to Birmingham New Street.

My notes for that day aren't clear when it comes to the consist but I believe 221135 as car E was at the front with car A (in which I travelled) 221139.

From searching the National Rail site, this train doesn't seem to be operating on weekdays as it was then.

I walked through part of the set, and found only six car B seats unoccupied (car number 60489 if correctly recorded). Car A was not full, though busier after Britsol as a total of 11 joined at two stops (Temple Meads and Parkway).

Your patronage was impressive. There were very few poorly patronised trains. Punctuality was better than some assert, with this train a minute late at Taunton but four and a half minutes late at Birmingham New Street on arrival. Hardly disastrous.

Without going OT, this year I have already included Barton on Humber in my itinerary, and at the terminus even though I have a pass I may buy a child's ticket to the next station to bump up the figures by a grand total of one. :lol:
Coach B would be vehicle number 60889: 60489 is the first class Coach A on that unit. First class is generally quieter than standard class on Crosscountry services, despite the limited provision.

There is no Coach E on Crosscountry services, the carriages of a five car set being designated A - B - C - D - F.

The 14:53 from Taunton would be 1S53, the 13:27 Plymouth - Edinburgh service. I believe it's presently booked to run as a single 5-car unit.
 

Halish Railway

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Sadly I fear that CrossCountry will stay as grim as it is until this country becomes good enough at electrification to start decarbonising significant amounts of the CrossCountry network. The problem is that CrossCountry's trains all drink through fuel like there's no tomorrow, thus gaining Avanti's Voyager's and EMR's Meridians to increase train length will make an already expensive operation even more expensive.

I'd say the obvious candidates for decarbonising the CrossCountry network are:
- Birmingham to Bristol (With bi-modes running towards Plymouth/Penzance)
- Birmingham/Coventry to Didcot
- Reading to Basingstoke
- Various Midland Mainline 'fill ins', i.e. Birmingham to Derby and Leicester and Sheffield to South Kirkby Jn and Doncaster

Electrification would not only reduce running costs, but also facilitate the procurement of rolling stock that is more space-efficient than Voyagers, with options available from many manufacturers. Regarding the Manchester to Bournemouth service mentioned in the title, I think that this is a route that could be worked by a dual-voltage, 110mph EMUs in the style of Class 444s. The lack of 125mph running on this route removing the need for crumple zones which sap away space that could otherwise be used for seats.
 

heathrowrail

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Surely not much more grim than it was pre-Covid. Whilst the loss of the HSTs is symbolic of everything that's wrong with the DfT's penny wise pound foolish attitude, XC has long been a grim way to travel.
Made worse now by the loss of Flybe with no South - North connections from Exeter or Southampton to Manchester or Newcastle.
 

david1212

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Sadly I fear that CrossCountry will stay as grim as it is until this country becomes good enough at electrification to start decarbonising significant amounts of the CrossCountry network. The problem is that CrossCountry's trains all drink through fuel like there's no tomorrow, thus gaining Avanti's Voyager's and EMR's Meridians to increase train length will make an already expensive operation even more expensive.

I'd say the obvious candidates for decarbonising the CrossCountry network are:
- Birmingham to Bristol (With bi-modes running towards Plymouth/Penzance)
- Birmingham/Coventry to Didcot
- Reading to Basingstoke
- Various Midland Mainline 'fill ins', i.e. Birmingham to Derby and Leicester and Sheffield to South Kirkby Jn and Doncaster

Electrification would not only reduce running costs, but also facilitate the procurement of rolling stock that is more space-efficient than Voyagers, with options available from many manufacturers. Regarding the Manchester to Bournemouth service mentioned in the title, I think that this is a route that could be worked by a dual-voltage, 110mph EMUs in the style of Class 444s. The lack of 125mph running on this route removing the need for crumple zones which sap away space that could otherwise be used for seats.

Indeed but I can not see wires appearing Bromsgrove - Bristol, Coventry - Oxford, Reading - Basingstoke in even 10 years. Didcot - Oxford might be first then with the MML wired through to Sheffield Birmingham - Derby could follow.

What would help right now is curtailing most XC services to the north-east at York. There are several departures each hour north from York plus the XC paths could be given over to other operators using electric stock.
Birmingham - Manchester is of course wired too however curtailing XC at Birmingham requires alternative 125mph stock for Birmingham - Manchester.
 

Class 170101

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Regarding the Manchester to Bournemouth service mentioned in the title, I think that this is a route that could be worked by a dual-voltage, 110mph EMUs in the style of Class 444s. The lack of 125mph running on this route removing the need for crumple zones which sap away space that could otherwise be used for seats.
Birmingham to Manchester has some 125mph running on it.
 

Peterthegreat

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Indeed but I can not see wires appearing Bromsgrove - Bristol, Coventry - Oxford, Reading - Basingstoke in even 10 years. Didcot - Oxford might be first then with the MML wired through to Sheffield Birmingham - Derby could follow.

What would help right now is curtailing most XC services to the north-east at York. There are several departures each hour north from York plus the XC paths could be given over to other operators using electric stock.
Birmingham - Manchester is of course wired too however curtailing XC at Birmingham requires alternative 125mph stock for Birmingham - Manchester.
No. There is only LNER who operate reliably from York northwards. TPE have insufficient electric stock to provide additional services even if they sorted the current mess out.
 

JonathanH

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No. There is only LNER who operate reliably from York northwards. TPE have insufficient electric stock to provide additional services even if they sorted the current mess out.
For most of the time, LNER would provide adequate capacity on their own between York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. However, I concede that there are some times when a half hourly service of 9 car trains might not be enough.
 

Peterthegreat

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For most of the time, LNER would provide adequate capacity on their own between York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. However, I concede that there are some times when a half hourly service of 9 car trains might not be enough.
I disagree. LNER north of York is very busy most of the time. In any case why should Edinburgh lose trains to Leeds and Sheffield and Newcastle land Darlington lose trains to Sheffield and Birmingham?
 

dk1

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I think we would stand a better chance of bimodal traction for XC if only those Voyagers were that little bit older. Unfortunately they ate only around mid-life & no obvious cascade to take the entire fleet away from the current operator.
 

Halish Railway

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I think we would stand a better chance of bimodal traction for XC if only those Voyagers were that little bit older. Unfortunately they ate only around mid-life & no obvious cascade to take the entire fleet away from the current operator.
Having said that EMR are replacing their younger Meridians, although that's to make use of the piecemeal electrification on the Midland Mainline. The CrossCountry network already has long stretches of electric running, as well as high speed electric running. Once TRU sees Leeds to York electrified, there will be a 252 mile stretch of electrified track between Edinburgh and South Kirkby Jn, most of which will be at or above 100mph. In addition, bi-mode trains can make use of future electrification on the 40 mile stretch of track from Derby to Sheffield.

Also removing Voyagers from Birmingham New Street would be a godsend, especially if bi-modes don't need to use their Diesel engines at all - You can really feel the air quality degrade when a Voyager arrives into the covered platforms at New Street. The current edition of Modern Railways says that the long distance CrossCountry services will remain at New Street post-Bordesley chords, meaning that the more aerated Moor Street won't be used.
 
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