GwR potential rolling stock provision once HSTs are stood down

[Dan G]

Doesn’t matter how full the trains are. If DfT don’t want to pay, GWR don’t get.

So are you saying that GWR is being told to cut the number of vehicles in service? This surprises me, given that the NRC award was big on service improvement. I thought the high load-factors around Exeter would mean the services are cost-effective.

 

[43096]

I cannot believe we're still seeing the comments about what the TOC should do to get new trains. It is really simple: the TOCs do not get the final say in what trains they have, it is down to DfT and they say. The TOC cannot do anything about it - it is in their contract. To be clear, DfT have had final say on fleet changes for many years - it's just even more noticeable now.

 

[michael74]

Or a number of 150's could be made into 3 cars for Exeter! Exeter could then not have so much reliance of turbos, on paper it would be a loss of a vehicle on a lot of services on the Devon Metro, but in reality (with the constant short formations) it would be an increase of one vehicle on most trains!

Admittedly this does reduce the flexibility within the fleet though but generally the 150 fleet is more reliable than the turbo fleet.

A 3 car 150... indeed not enough flexibility, you can't attach anything onto it in the morning and evening peaks (where x4 150 swallows up shed loads of pax) without starting to have to use the local door at a few stations (they do try to avoid 150+158) and in the evening will be too big, when you could be having 2 cars running pai-exm and oke while the turbos and a 158 go to bed....

 

[Clarence Yard]

The DfT are looking for budget cuts for 2023/24 and stock that is coming up for lease end is vulnerable. Service improvements are now secondary to the budget situation. However, both the DfT and GWR want to see some improvements but nearly as many as the DA3 award would have brought in.

Currently the 800/802 5 car fleet isn’t being diagrammed fully, even allowing for the maintenance rules. You could probably get another 4 GTi diagrams out of them without any short forming.

 

[michael74]

The DfT are looking for budget cuts for 2023/24 and stock that is coming up for lease end is vulnerable. Service improvements are now secondary to the budget situation. However, both the DfT and GWR want to see some improvements but nearly as many as the DA3 award would have brought in.

Currently the 800/802 5 car fleet isn’t being diagrammed fully, even allowing for the maintenance rules. You could probably get another 4 GTi diagrams out of them without any short forming.

This is the way.... the next trick is to rejig the guards diagrams or get agreements in place for the May December timetables.

 

[RPI]

A 3 car 150... indeed not enough flexibility, you can't attach anything onto it in the morning and evening peaks (where x4 150 swallows up shed loads of pax) without starting to have to use the local door at a few stations (they do try to avoid 150+158) and in the evening will be too big, when you could be having 2 cars running pai-exm and oke while the turbos and a 158 go to bed....

You wouldn't need to strengthen anything up from a 3 car really, the busiest diagrams on the Exmouth-Paignton are booked 166, the 0753 Exmouth-Paignton is meant to be a 4 car 150 but ends up as a 2 car way to often, yet a 3 car 150 would probably suffice

 

[Anonymous10]

You wouldn't need to strengthen anything up from a 3 car really, the busiest diagrams on the Exmouth-Paignton are booked 166, the 0753 Exmouth-Paignton is meant to be a 4 car 150 but ends up as a 2 car way to often, yet a 3 car 150 would probably suffice

A standing room 2 carriage are normally all seated on a 3 carriage from My experience in Wales

 

[FGW_DID]

Both 150001 & 002 were often working devon metro services towards the end of their time with GWR, it certainly helped in my opinion (having travelled on them far too many times back when that happened!)

Where have 001 & 002 gone to?

Average of three, sometimes two and very occasionally four. There has been a few more 2 car 158s lately. I've given up recording them on strike days.

To me the ideal Paignton- Exmouth service is 3 turbos and 8 150s as 4 X4 car trains. They do reduce the 150s to one unit in the evenings.

That‘s just whats available, the actual number of diagrams isn’t going to change. If there is 4 16x diagrams, for example, that involve work around the Exeter area M-F then you should see 4x 16x units. Unit availability may not always mean that’s achieved.

IMO Diagrams is a most often misused term!

 

[fgwrich]

Where have 001 & 002 gone to?

Northern Rail - to work with their reformed 150/0s (Centro Style) on whichever routes they are supposed to be on (Penistone I think). They were part of the Angel 4 (202, 216, 209, 001 & 002) but only the latter units left.

 

[Rich McLean]

Would there even be a mechanism in place for the TOCs to go out seek and procure more stock ?
I cannot imagine it. I see the TOCs (with a responsibility to their stakeholders) as purely attempting to run the DfT timetable with whatever they have. Would investment in additional rolling stock leases be born by the TOC or DfT

I am afraid i just see a return to the 1995 carve up of 25 companies into TOCs - all nicely set solid in aspic to prevent any significant. Who remembers the old Central Trains Coventry-Nottingham service which serviced cities of learning like Coventry, Leicester, Loughborough and Nottingham. I imagine if it were relaunched to skint students it might be popular, sadly the original being sacrificed on the altar of inconvenience to the railway operators

Is it possible to have flair these days, or is the timetable sliced ore trashed because there isn't enough X / / X delete as appropriate

The DfT is worried about costs. If they don't want to sanction the costs of extra stock, they will just be stripped for spares (where possible) and sent for scrap. If situation changes in a few year, it will be new stock.

 

[Dan G]

The DfT are looking for budget cuts for 2023/24 and stock that is coming up for lease end is vulnerable. Service improvements are now secondary to the budget situation. However, both the DfT and GWR want to see some improvements but nearly as many as the DA3 award would have brought in.

Currently the 800/802 5 car fleet isn’t being diagrammed fully, even allowing for the maintenance rules. You could probably get another 4 GTi diagrams out of them without any short forming.

GTi?

So looking through the NCR contract doc and the MetroWest plans, I guess the thinking is make-do with the existing Turbo and Sprinter vehicles until at least 2026, and then have a conflab between DfT and GWR about what rolling stock is required for Portishead and Henbury.

Where have 001 & 002 gone to?


That‘s just whats available, the actual number of diagrams isn’t going to change. If there is 4 16x diagrams, for example, that involve work around the Exeter area M-F then you should see 4x 16x units. Unit availability may not always mean that’s achieved.

IMO Diagrams is a most often misused term!

How many vehicles is each train on the Devon Metro supposed to have?

 

[Class172]

GTi?

A nickname some give to the Castle HST sets, I believe on the basis of their performance being rather spritely compared to the traditional 2+7 formations, much like the Golf GTi is to the regular model.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I was actually meaning availability, rather than trying to compare anything else. As although I know about electronic, electrical and electro-mechanical engineering, I know very little about the different systems used on rolling stock/locomotives/trains.

But thank you for explaining what the actual problems are. Parts going obsolete also affect other parts of the railways. I know, I’ve been in a situation where we had to phone around in an attempt to get spare parts…

Sound like the problems with the Turbos is worse though.

GTi?

So looking through the NCR contract doc and the MetroWest plans, I guess the thinking is make-do with the existing Turbo and Sprinter vehicles until at least 2026, and then have a conflab between DfT and GWR about what rolling stock is required for Portishead and Henbury.



How many vehicles is each train on the Devon Metro supposed to have?

Devon Metro trains are largely booked to be 4 car 150s or 3 car 166s there’s a handful of early and late trains booked 2 car 150s.

 

[DelW]

The DfT are looking for budget cuts for 2023/24 and stock that is coming up for lease end is vulnerable. Service improvements are now secondary to the budget situation. However, both the DfT and GWR want to see some improvements but nearly as many as the DA3 award would have brought in.

Just for clarity, should that have read "... but not nearly as many ..."? Otherwise the "but" seems wrong.

 

[Dan G]

That's how I read it! But on the other hand I'm not sure what "DA3" is. There was a direct award for 2020 to 2023 and there's now the NRC for April 2023 onwards. So what was "DA3"?

PS thanks, Class172, for the GTi explanation!

 

[Techniquest]

A nickname some give to the Castle HST sets, I believe on the basis of their performance being rather spritely compared to the traditional 2+7 formations, much like the Golf GTi is to the regular model.

Absolutely, and now I have the GTi Club arcade machine's theme in my head

 

[Wyrleybart]

That's how I read it! But on the other hand I'm not sure what "DA3" is. There was a direct award for 2020 to 2023 and there's now the NRC for April 2023 onwards. So what was "DA3"?

I believe DA3 was Direct award III which GWR spent a lot of time working on, but Covid got in the way, leading to the complete collapse of John Major's passenger rail franchising model.

From what I understand, DfT write the rail contracts, the preexisting railcos sign them and try to operate them. All revenue goes to the Treasury and DfT pay the railcos a fixed fee and possibly a "good behaviour" payment. What I don't see is how DfT are going to bring anything "fresh" in terms of thoughts, ideas, new practices, new business, new rolling stock, increased revenue etc to the industry. Income is undoubtedly down due to the sliding off the cliff of season tickets, particularly First class offerings, but that doesn't mean to say the "real railway" has, nor that those passengers should take the hit.

 

[Trainbike46]

Does anyone know what is likely to happen with the GWR/First owned sets? Will they be trying to resell them for freight/scotrail/etc., or just scrap them?

 

[Razorblades]

Does anyone know what is likely to happen with the GWR/First owned sets? Will they be trying to resell them for freight/scotrail/etc., or just scrap them?

Freight is an extremely unlikely use for HSTs, ScotRail won't be taking any additional units, so it's likely that they'll be retired into scrap or odds and ends into preservation.

 

[87electric]

That's correct (although 43022/041 are now stopped, of course).

I knew I could rely on your knowledge. Great stuff.

 

[D1537]

Freight is an extremely unlikely use for HSTs, ScotRail won't be taking any additional units, so it's likely that they'll be retired into scrap or odds and ends into preservation.

Freight as such, yes. Dragging random lighter items around ... perhaps not so much.

HST unit drag

 

[Razorblades]

Freight as such, yes. Dragging random lighter items around ... perhaps not so much.

HST unit drag

That market is pretty well saturated now though; as well as Rail Adventure with its frankly odd use of Power Cars, you've assorted 20s, 37s, 47s, 56s and even 50s dedicated or borrowed for these ECS/ delivery moves. And now we've passed Peak New Trains, the rate of delivery will drop off to a trickle over the next couple of years.

 

[GoneSouth]

That market is pretty well saturated now though; as well as Rail Adventure with its frankly odd use of Power Cars, you've assorted 20s, 37s, 47s, 56s and even 50s dedicated or borrowed for these ECS/ delivery moves. And now we've passed Peak New Trains, the rate of delivery will drop off to a trickle over the next couple of years.

The Rail Adventures ones look very smart in their new livery!

 

[Bikeman78]

Given how rapid Stadler seem to get new fleets into traffic after the first few, I'd be surprised if they weren't TfW 150s destined for GWR. There's always an outside chance Porterbrook could offer a nice and cheap lease to TfW for the 769s as well, allowing more Sprinters to go first.

Off the top of my head, the Rhymney line needs nine sets of stock. There are six class 769 diagrams. The whole point of putting the 231s on the valleys, instead of Maesteg to Cheltenham, is to displace the 769s. There are currently trains being cancelled owing to lack of units. I'll be very surprised to see any 150s going off lease soon.

 

[northernbelle]

Off the top of my head, the Rhymney line needs nine sets of stock. There are six class 769 diagrams. The whole point of putting the 231s on the valleys, instead of Maesteg to Cheltenham, is to displace the 769s. There are currently trains being cancelled owing to lack of units. I'll be very surprised to see any 150s going off lease soon.

As is stands there is no agreement for any additional trains into the GWR fleet.

 

[Benjwri]

As is stands there is no agreement for any additional trains into the GWR fleet.

How are they planning on increasing services then? The May timetable includes MetroWest service increases, it physically isn’t possible to do that without more trains, and during the recent debate in Parliament it very much was implied kk ore trains were coming from somewhere

 

[michael74]

Comms suggesting likely a lease extensions on the 150 fleet.

 

[devon_belle]

A friend at GWR said that they were offered 175s but they were turned down. Considering the fires recently it seems like this was a good decision...

I saw somewhere that 5 car IETs will take over some HST work. Not sure if this is true, though.

Hopefully TfW cascades can provide much-needed carriages until GWR can get some new units.

 

[swt_passenger]

I saw somewhere that 5 car IETs will take over some HST work. Not sure if this is true, though.

I’m fairly sure that’s been posted as fact in a few threads by GWR insiders.

 

[devon_belle]

I’m fairly sure that’s been posted as fact in a few threads by GWR insiders.

I think that you're right (I heard from GWR sources too). Supposedly a new order was mooted, but I don't think that's going ahead just yet/at all. I'm sure all the latest info is on this forum somewhere if one dug around.

Without some more units I don't see how they can achieve their plans for more services (while keeping trains a suitable length).