Staff abusing 1st class travel privileges

[Barn]

So would it be different if it were fare paying customers laughing and joking?

The fact that some customers disturb other passengers does not justify staff doing it. Ever heard of setting a good example? Two wrongs don't make a right?

 

[GB]

Given that laughing, joking or talking is not banned in first class (as far as I am aware) I don't see much of a problem if it is all done at standard decible levels. While Ive never travelled first class I bet there is a large proportion of passengers tapping away on laptops or yapping away on mobile phones? Does this not constitute a desturbance or is it ok if you are wearing a suit?

 

[Mojo]

I didn't mean you personally give a refund, but rather tell them how to go about getting a refund. I don't know the policy for EC, but heard the announcement made.

I personally have had no problem getting a refund from First Great Western by writing in where First class was declassified.

 

[amcluesent]

>So would it be different if it were fare paying customers laughing and joking?<

FC fare paying customers never laugh and joke. Well, hardly ever! I recall being in quite a well "refreshed" carriage after Ascot Ladies Day last year.

 

[jon0844]

Just got on a FCC service and two drivers got on, via separate doors on the front set of a 365. The one nearest FC went straight in to first,the other walked down and sat in standard!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Why should they, beyond general decency (ie giving up seats to people who are less mobile) particularly if not in uniform? They're passengers the same as any other. You might as well ask if railcard holders should stand for full paying passengers, or off-peak ticket holders for anytime ticket holders?

I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous argument. There is a world of difference between railcard holders and members of rail staff using their privilege passes to travel when not working.

 

[Barn]

Given that laughing, joking or talking is not banned in first class (as far as I am aware) I don't see much of a problem if it is all done at standard decible levels. While Ive never travelled first class I bet there is a large proportion of passengers tapping away on laptops or yapping away on mobile phones? Does this not constitute a desturbance or is it ok if you are wearing a suit?

Reverse snobbery at its finest! There may not be a specific written rule, but it should be a combination of basic human courtesy and a commercial understanding of why people choose first class.

Laughing and joking in first class is just a milder version of library staff laughing and joking in the reading room as they cone off-shift.

 

[pdq]

On my TPE 5 minutes ago the conductor came on the PA and firmly asked that all rail staff on passes give up their seats for fare-paying passengers.

 

[dk1]

On my TPE 5 minutes ago the conductor came on the PA and firmly asked that all rail staff on passes give up their seats for fare-paying passengers.

This often happens when senior (often unpopular) managers are travelling in first class. Conductors will do it to p*ss them off & make a point.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Paybacks a bitch ain't it lol

 

[Nick O. Teen]

Here's what happened to me yesterday.

I jumped on a stopper home from Padd, after a training course (and, therefore, in civvies) with just one minute to go before departure. It was rammed, so I sneaked into 1st at the back.

It's a DOO train, so no guard, but it was no surprise to see an RPI (well, I'm assuming he was an RPI) come out of the back cab at Slough. I know many of the RPIs, but not this chap.

He asked to see tickets. The customer behind me had a standard ticket, so he was told "Standard ticket, mate. Through there, please", and he upped & went.

I showed my staff pass. "Standard ticket, mate - through there, please" said the RPI. I, too, meekly upped & went, because, of course, I shouldn't have been there. I know that.

Well, with 1st now empty, yer man sat himself down in 1st and read the paper. Then he got off at Burnham, minus a machine - it must have been his train home!

I know I was in the wrong, but still - cheeky gett!!

 

[CosherB]

Has any guard on here ever asked a passenger with a 'personal' stereo, in a quiet coach (where, at least on Virgin, they are banned) to switch it off or move to another coach?

 

[Mojo]

Has any guard on here ever asked a passenger with a 'personal' stereo, in a quiet coach (where, at least on Virgin, they are banned) to switch it off or move to another coach?

I have never understood why some (not all) Tocs advertise that personal stereos are banned from quiet coaches. If used properly and with consideration (like I try to) then other customers need not know that I'm listening to music. I also often have my headphones in but no music is playing. What would happen then?

I know some people are incapable of keeping their music down and I'm tired of listening to music through too loud headphones. I always take mine off when I start listening to music to check that it's not audible to anyone else.

 

[Pumbaa]

Has any guard on here ever asked a passenger with a 'personal' stereo, in a quiet coach (where, at least on Virgin, they are banned) to switch it off or move to another coach?

On an XC service I was on, an elder lady tapped anyone who had headphones in on the shoulder and asked them to get rid of them as they weren't allowed in the quiet coach. She then promptly sat down and talked to her companion. Loudly.

 

[Mojo]

On an XC service I was on, an elder lady tapped anyone who had headphones in on the shoulder and asked them to get rid of them as they weren't allowed in the quiet coach. She then promptly sat down and talked to her companion. Loudly.

I'd have told her to get lost! Virgin even use (or used to) a pair of headphones in the logo for the Quiet coach!

 

[Matt Taylor]

As far as I know behaviour in quiet coaches is purely by request only, there is no bye-law offence like there is for smoking etc.

 

[SS4]

I have never understood why some (not all) Tocs advertise that personal stereos are banned from quiet coaches. If used properly and with consideration (like I try to) then other customers need not know that I'm listening to music. I also often have my headphones in but no music is playing. What would happen then?

I know some people are incapable of keeping their music down and I'm tired of listening to music through too loud headphones. I always take mine off when I start listening to music to check that it's not audible to anyone else.

I agree mainly because in some cases conversation can be louder than quiet music, especially with various people chatting

 

[Flamingo]

As far as I know behaviour in quiet coaches is purely by request only, there is no bye-law offence like there is for smoking etc.

There is a catch-all "conduct causing disturbance or alarm to other rail users" type bylaw. Any of the legal bods know the exact act?

 

[yorksrob]

I have never understood why some (not all) Tocs advertise that personal stereos are banned from quiet coaches. If used properly and with consideration (like I try to) then other customers need not know that I'm listening to music. I also often have my headphones in but no music is playing. What would happen then?

I know some people are incapable of keeping their music down and I'm tired of listening to music through too loud headphones. I always take mine off when I start listening to music to check that it's not audible to anyone else.

I agree entirely. Seems a far more sensible approach than the obsession with banning everything.

 

[island]

Section 5 of the Public Order Act covers causing harassment, alarm, or distress to one or more persons who are unrelated to you, whether you're on a railway or not, and someone can be issued a Penalty Notice for Disorder by a constable for violating it. Normally they are warned first.

Byelaw 6(8) of the Railways Byelaws 2005 is probably the one you have in mind, it says "No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway." Byelaw 24 (2) allows an authorised person to order a person in violation of any byelaw to leave the railway, and remove them using reasonable force if they refuse.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes. Both Section 4 and Section 5 of the Public Order Act may be helpful. Here:-

4 Fear or provocation of violence.
(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—.
(a)uses towards another person threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or.
(b)distributes or displays to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,.
with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be provoked.
(2)An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is distributed or displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that or another dwelling..
(3)A constable may arrest without warrant anyone he reasonably suspects is committing an offence under this section..
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or both.

5 Harassment, alarm or distress.
(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—.
(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or.
(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,.
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.
(2)An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that or another dwelling..
(3)It is a defence for the accused to prove—.
(a)that he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or.
(b)that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation displayed, would be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling, or.
(c)that his conduct was reasonable..
(4)A constable may arrest a person without warrant if—.
(a)he engages in offensive conduct which [F1a] constable warns him to stop, and.
(b)he engages in further offensive conduct immediately or shortly after the warning..
(5)In subsection (4) “offensive conduct” means conduct the constable reasonably suspects to constitute an offence under this section, and the conduct mentioned in paragraph (a) and the further conduct need not be of the same nature..
(6)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

Its even possible for these behaviours to be Offences under the Act if they are experienced by watching it via CCTV .

 

[CNX]

On my TPE 5 minutes ago the conductor came on the PA and firmly asked that all rail staff on passes give up their seats for fare-paying passengers.

Did they? I trust you weren't trampled in the rush. And I hope he said 'active' staff only, because the 'give up your seat when the train is wedged' directive doesn't apply to retired pass/priv ticket holders.

This from the TPX entry on the ATOC Staff Travel Restrictions page. There is no ATOC general directive on this matter; its left to the individual TOC's to publish their own guidelines, though most are basically the same.

1) Active staff holders of First Class travel facilities are advised that First Class accommodation should only be used where seats are available. These seats should be vacated whenever required by fare paying customers. First Class seat reservations for active staff and dependants are not permitted.

2) Active staff holders of Standard Class travel facilities are requested to vacate their seats if fare paying customers are standing.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Did they? I hope you weren't trampled in the rush. And I hope he said 'active' staff only, because the 'give up your seat when the train is wedged' directive doesn't apply to retired staff who are pass/priv ticket holders.

Why does it not apply to them?

 

[notadriver]

Here's what happened to me yesterday.

I jumped on a stopper home from Padd, after a training course (and, therefore, in civvies) with just one minute to go before departure. It was rammed, so I sneaked into 1st at the back.

It's a DOO train, so no guard, but it was no surprise to see an RPI (well, I'm assuming he was an RPI) come out of the back cab at Slough. I know many of the RPIs, but not this chap.

He asked to see tickets. The customer behind me had a standard ticket, so he was told "Standard ticket, mate. Through there, please", and he upped & went.

I showed my staff pass. "Standard ticket, mate - through there, please" said the RPI. I, too, meekly upped & went, because, of course, I shouldn't have been there. I know that.

Well, with 1st now empty, yer man sat himself down in 1st and read the paper. Then he got off at Burnham, minus a machine - it must have been his train home!

I know I was in the wrong, but still - cheeky gett!!

1) I personally don't think RPIs should be allowed in the back cabs. They are revenue only and might accidentally push one of the emergency stop buttons or push the Traction/Brake controller into emergency by accident.

2) I would have asked for his ID before my ticket was checked and if he did sit in 1st class after challenge as to why he was entitled to sit in there.

 

[CNX]

Why does it not apply to them?

Don't know the offiicial reason, but I presume its because some of the older pass/priv ticket holders may not be considered to be in a fit medical state to stand. So they decided on a blanket exemption for all retired staff. I fell into that category at the grand old age of 42!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1) I personally don't think RPIs should be allowed in the back cabs. They are revenue only and might accidentally push one of the emergency stop buttons or push the Traction/Brake controller into emergency by accident.

2) I would have asked for his ID before my ticket was checked and if he did sit in 1st class after challenge as to why he was entitled to sit in there.

Another of the 'do as I say, not as I do' brigade. I've no time for such individuals.

Going slighty off topic, but on the same basic principle, I've flown in business class several times, all long haul flights. Even when there were vacant seats in that cabin, the crew never occupied them, and always kept to their designated galley area when not serving meals etc. I presume that airlines have strict instructions to this effect.

 

[chuckles1066]

1st class doesn't mean you get treated any more "special" than standard class passengers

????

08.15 Paddington - Bristol TM on Monday, £34 standard, £139.50 first class.

I'd like to think the extra £105.50 buys me something?

 

[Minilad]

????

08.15 Paddington - Bristol TM on Monday, £34 standard, £139.50 first class.

I'd like to think the extra £105.50 buys me something?

A cup of tea, a wider seat and a shorter walk to/from the underground

 

[stut]

Going slighty off topic, but on the same basic principle, I've flown in business class several times, all long haul flights. Even when there were vacant seats in that cabin, the crew never occupied them, and always kept to their designated galley area when not serving meals etc. I presume that airlines have strict instructions to this effect.

In addition, though, there are crew rest areas built into long-haul aircraft - often bunk beds.

 

[CNX]

In addition, though, there are crew rest areas built into long-haul aircraft - often bunk beds.

Yes, but I think they are only for relief captains/first officers on certain long haul services that carry augmented flight deck crews due to the excessive duration of the flight. I was referring only to the cabin crew. On some long haul flights there is an area of seating reserved as a cabin crew rest area, but its in the economy class at the extreme rear.

The flights I was referring to were a maximun of about 7 hours 30 minutes flying time, so none would be conveying an augmented flight deck crew.

 

[stut]

Yes, but I think they are only for relief captains/first officers on certain long haul services that carry augmented flight deck crews due to the excessive duration of the flight. I was referring only to the cabin crew. On some long haul flights there is an area of seating reserved as a cabin crew rest area, but its in the economy class at the extreme rear.

The flights I was referring to were a maximun of about 7 hours 30 minutes flying time, so none would be conveying an augmented flight deck crew.

It's dependent on the airline, but certainly not reserved for flight crew, or for ultra-long haul flights.

IIRC, cabin crew (on most reputable airlines) have a shift limit of around 11-12 hours. Bear in mind that this will time before and after a flight (about 90 minutes before and an hour after). So, on a 7h30 flight (which is pretty short, as long-haul goes), you're already looking at a 10 hour shift. Add in some delays, and you're pretty close to the limit.

There are few flights operating in aircraft where something like 7h30 is a limit (there are some, though, like BA's LCY-(SNN)-JFK service, or the Privatair 737s and 319s) so most will have a crew rest area of some sorts. Naturally, the best equipped will be the extended range equipment, but most 747s, 777s, 330s and 340s will have some kind of bunk or recliner seating area for cabin crew.

On a shorter flight like 7h30, there'll be a short rest en route, and cabin crew are generally given the option to use bunks (given most capable aircraft have them) or designated seating. Some airlines have specifically designed crew seating, others cordon off unobtrusive parts of the plane. Some prefer to lie down, others prefer just to sit - it all depends on how you like to rest, really.

However... Any flights going much further - from London, anything outside the eastern half of North America and Middle East (plus North Africa and parts of India and central Asia), you're looking at having proper crew rest.

In addition, on flights that turn around quickly at the more exotic destinations, or ones that have multi-stop itineraries (or fifth freedom routes) it may be beneficial to carry extra crew on a longer shift, with proper rest, rather than to have a crew change at the destination or waypoint.