Southeastern problems post timetable change

[Peregrine 4903]

On the Greenwich line for example the slimmed down timetable now sees near enough half hour gaps between trains even in the peak so people build up on London Bridge platforms. This causes congestion and slow boarding for other services as people jostle and try to get through crowds.

Add in people being forced to change in addition to longer service gaps and problems arise. Similar seems to be happening at Lewisham - where thousands of new homes and residents are adding to the mix.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==


Yes it has. Before Dec 2022 Greenwich line had 4 SE trains per hour in the peak. It now has 2. They're timed to depart at exactly the same time as 2 TL trains which compounds the problem.

Go look at the timetable pre Dec 2022 and look at the existing. It *is* slimmed down.

And of course its far less trains generally compared to the pre 2020 timetable. The level of crowding seen even on days with no external issues shows the Dec timetable should have been working back towards pre covid levels and not further reductions.

But other locations have gained services. So the timetable is less in some places and more in others.

 

[ScotGG]

Metro routes are the area where most housing growth is happening. There's no improvement in services there.

30 mins wait on the line through Greenwich in peak times and larger intervals through places like Lewisham towards Kidbrooke and Bexleyheath are causing issues - compounded by a requirement now for many to change at London Bridge.

Even when no external factor is at play the crowding seen at stations and on trains vastly exceeds pre December levels. Ther scenes yesterday are hard to picture over the past 15 years as an almost daily user of London Bridge. Something has gone very wrong as this timetable barely functions on a good day but goes completely off the rails with disruption (which is hardly unique for any regular user be in signal issues or a trespasser).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

May timetable there were 4tph off peak on Bexleyheath line, 6tph off peak on Charlton line and 4tph off peak on Sidcup line which is the same as current timetable. In fact there are now 6tph between Dartford and Gravesend compared to the 4tph in May. Where is the cut?

I thought that May timetable you are comparing to was the 'temporary' Covid timetable. As I recall, pre-covid, off-peak, there were 8tph on the Charlton line and 6tph on the Sidcup line. One aspect of the 'cut' is that the reduced Covid frequencies appear to have become permanent.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I thought that May timetable you are comparing to was the 'temporary' Covid timetable. As I recall, pre-covid, off-peak, there were 8tph on the Charlton line and 6tph on the Sidcup line. One aspect of the 'cut' is that the reduced Covid frequencies appear to have become permanent.

No that was never the case. But I wouldn't blame Southeastern for that. There is no money to run the pre-covid timetable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I am fully aware how train services run. However you seem to be of the impression trains will need their booked time at Charing Cross but not at London Bridge. This is clearly nonsense.

If I've understood correctly, the booked time at Charing Cross is the permanent booked turnaround time in the timetable, which clearly has to be padded to allow for things like recovery time if a train arrives late at Charing Cross. On the other hand, we're talking about a quick one-off turnaround time at London Bridge in order to get a delayed train running back on time by not having it run through to Charing Cross. Since this is a one-off and you basically know what time the train is likely to turn up at London Bridge, the turnaround presumably needs to be no longer than the time it takes for the driver to change ends and restart the train etc.

 

[Peterthegreat]

If I've understood correctly, the booked time at Charing Cross is the permanent booked turnaround time in the timetable, which clearly has to be padded to allow for things like recovery time if a train arrives late at Charing Cross. On the other hand, we're talking about a quick one-off turnaround time at London Bridge in order to get a delayed train running back on time by not having it run through to Charing Cross. Since this is a one-off and you basically know what time the train is likely to turn up at London Bridge, the turnaround presumably needs to be no longer than the time it takes for the driver to change ends and restart the train etc.

And we are talking about a "one off" time at Charing Cross. It doesn't need to be the booked turnaround time.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And we are talking about a "one off" time at Charing Cross. It doesn't need to be the booked turnaround time.

But the point is that, in the booked timetable, if there's a ~10 minute turnaround at Charing Cross, that means it's about half an hour between the times that the train passes through London Bridge in each direction. If, as a one-off, you can have that particular train turn around at London Bridge in a few minutes, that allows you to recover a train that was about half an hour late heading into London, so it can then leave London Bridge roughly on time on its return-from-London journey. Hence, turning a train around at London Bridge can in that situation recover about 30 minutes.

 

[zwk500]

But the point is that, in the booked timetable, if there's a ~10 minute turnaround at Charing Cross, that means it's about half an hour between the times that the train passes through London Bridge in each direction. If, as a one-off, you can have that particular train turn around at London Bridge in a few minutes, that allows you to recover a train that was about half an hour late heading into London, so it can then leave London Bridge roughly on time on its return-from-London journey. Hence, turning a train around at London Bridge can in that situation recover about 30 minutes.

But the counter point was that of that 10 minute turnround, 7 minutes of it is required. So if the train has times 30 minutes apart at London Bridge, and is running 30 minutes late, then spinning at London Bridge results in it still running 7 minutes late on departure, saving only ~20, not ~30. Still better than nothing though.

 

[Peterthegreat]

That is also what I was thinking

At least 2 of us understand it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

But the counter point was that of that 10 minute turnround, 7 minutes of it is required. So if the train has times 30 minutes apart at London Bridge, and is running 30 minutes late, then spinning at London Bridge results in it still running 7 minutes late on departure, saving only ~20, not ~30. Still better than nothing though.

At least 3 of us understand it....

 

[PGAT]

Journey times from London Bridge to Charing Cross are 7 or 8 minutes. 7 1/2 (to CHX) + 7 1/2 (from CHX) = 15 minutes saved. Mind you, you could cut maybe 5 minutes off the turnaround time

 

[zwk500]

Journey times from London Bridge to Charing Cross are 7 or 8 minutes. 7 1/2 (to CHX) + 7 1/2 (from CHX) = 15 minutes saved. Mind you, you could cut maybe 5 minutes off the turnaround time

ISTR 7 or 8 minutes minimum turnround in the rules for SE at 10/12 cars. Drivers can probably do it a bit quicker if they're minded to, or if there's a 2nd driver ready to take over.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

ISTR 7 or 8 minutes minimum turnround in the rules for SE at 10/12 cars. Drivers can probably do it a bit quicker if they're minded to, or if there's a 2nd driver ready to take over.

9 minutes is minimum for 10/12 car. 7 minutes for 8 car.

 

[zwk500]

9 minutes is minimum for 10/12 car. 7 minutes for 8 car.

Ah, wasn't far off then.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Found this on the London subreddit and I think it sums up the situation nicely.

fake news photoshopped nobody is using the railway

 

[ScotGG]

Looks like changes on the way. Apparently passenger demand is stronger than they thought...

 

[fusionblue]

Looks like changes on the way. Apparently passenger demand is stronger than they thought...

Having the majority of metro stations ungated, combined with Networkers that dont have solutions to count passengers, tends to cause that line of thinking.

 

[43066]

Looks like changes on the way. Apparently passenger demand is stronger than they thought...

Having the majority of metro stations ungated, combined with Networkers that dont have solutions to count passengers, tends to cause that line of thinking.

Unfortunately downplaying the recovery in passenger numbers to justify a. Service cuts b. Failure to resolve the industrial disputes rather suits the government at the moment.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Unfortunately downplaying the recovery in passenger numbers to justify a. Service cuts b. Failure to resolve the industrial disputes rather suits the government at the moment.

If you use tickets sold as your proxy for passenger usage its hardly surprising it doesn't look good revenue protection is abysmal out in the suburbs.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve heard from an unimpeachable source that Southeastern have had a surge in passenger numbers in the last three weeks. They’ve had their busiest, and second busiest, days since Covid in that time. Could be a product of the timetable !

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I’ve heard from an unimpeachable source that Southeastern have had a surge in passenger numbers in the last three weeks. They’ve had their busiest, and second busiest, days since Covid in that time. Could be a product of the timetable !

were they in a strike week and thus a result of passengers changing travelling arrangements to days when trains were running?

 

[43066]

I’ve heard from an unimpeachable source that Southeastern have had a surge in passenger numbers in the last three weeks. They’ve had their busiest, and second busiest, days since Covid in that time. Could be a product of the timetable !

Or just more people heading back to the office now that we’re into the new year? Many likely wrote December off due to the strikes.

 

[Bald Rick]

were they in a strike week and thus a result of passengers changing travelling arrangements to days when trains were running?

fairly sure one of them was when the Liz Line was on strike, but the other one was non strike.

it’s not just the top 2 days though, there has been a marked increase across the board.

 

[350401]

Anecdotally, the trains are definitely busier this month than in October or November. The 08.53 and 09.23 Grove Park to Cannon St are often full at the front and only a few seats at the back - whereas pre January, I could sometimes get 2 seats to myself. The evening trains are rammed leaving Cannon St. The trains from CHX which connect with the Bromley North shuttles are standing room only arriving at London Bridge - again, I could get a seat in November. Then again, there are less trains now - 4tph to Orpington now, vs 6tph pre December - the 2tph peak extras were axed in the new timetable. They need to come back.

 

[jnjkerbin]

My normal train now is the 0736 Sevenoaks - Charing X stopper, and this has become noticeably busier since the timetable change. This is booked 10/707 and is typically standing down the aisles all the way to the back by the time it leaves Hither Green. This was never the case prior to the timetable change nor prior to COVID on the nearest equivalent train. Part of this is the removal of the long-standing connection onto a fast train at Chelsfield, which meant most commuters from Dunton Green and Knockholt would change on to the ex-Tunbridge Wells train that was a few minutes behind. Now that connection no longer exists, they have to stay on the stopper all the way which not only massively increases their journey time (especially since it now takes the slow trundle down, up and over to serve Lewisham) but also contributes to the crowding. Whether or not this is due to more people travelling or the new timetable, I don't know.

 

[BluePenguin]

Nobody extra is going into the office, people are travelling to see friends and family, judging by the clothes of people on the packed services I have been on

 

[350401]

I’m not sure that’s a valid way to judge whether people are commuting for work or leisure. I work in an office but I wear jeans, jumper and trainers to the office. My office is definitely busier since December, most people seem to be settling into a 2 days a week in the office pattern.

 

[LLivery]

Everything seems busier since the New Year commuting from SE London to the City. Overground commuting around 8:30 is rammed full in the middle weekdays from Brockley/NXG northwards, and my partner says the Hayes line is busier again

I’m not sure that’s a valid way to judge whether people are commuting for work or leisure. I work in an office but I wear jeans, jumper and trainers to the office. My office is definitely busier since December, most people seem to be settling into a 2 days a week in the office pattern.

It's not. I can wear a hoodie, trainers and jeans in the office if I wish

 

[Roast Veg]

Axing the off peak Tunbridge Wells terminators has really gutted the service down there...

 

[Trainlog]

Being from Maidstone, i can definitely agree that though the Charing X train sounded nice on paper, it wasn't necessary when there is already a London Victoria service every 20mins and a Javelin service at peak times from Maidstone West.

I hope that the one good change that has came out of the timetable change is preserved and that is the half hourly Medway valley service which has been great for the line and having a frequent service means that people from Maidstone can access a Charing X service from Paddock Wood/Tonbridge and Thameslink and Hs1 at Strood more easily than beforehand as waiting for the hourly service previously on that line was rather dull.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Virtually no “real people” who use the new London Bridge, versus the old version, think the new one is any worse !!!

I'm real enough, and I have problems navigating London Bridge now, on my occasional uses of it, that I never had before.