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UK Rail Passenger Numbers Discussion

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paul1609

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Yes, and in anticipation of such observations, I quoted the exact model. This very moderate forecast uptick is due to strikes impacting the previous trend, hence the statement 'once the strikes end'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


How much does the UK economy (including tax revenues) lose every day there are rail strikes? Not to forget the taxes returned to government from PAYE and NICs.
Id suggest that the rail industry has really moved to a "nice to have" rather than an "essential service" probably when the power stations stopped burning coal compounded by the work from home revolution.
There really isn't a journey where a train strike means there's no alternative now. Sadly a lot of people working in the industry don't seem to recognise that yet.
 
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Xavi

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Id suggest that the rail industry has really moved to a "nice to have" rather than an "essential service" probably when the power stations stopped burning coal compounded by the work from home revolution.
There really isn't a journey where a train strike means there's no alternative now. Sadly a lot of people working in the industry don't seem to recognise that yet.
The problem for the economy is that people don’t make those journeys in the same volume when trains aren’t available even if there is an alternative. Consumers don’t spend as much when WFH (or entertaining at home) and this is very high on the Treasury’s list of threats.
 

Killingworth

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I certainly wouldn't. You're aware that the NHS is hugely bloated and inefficient and costs the UK taxpayer well over £100 Billion every single year? It makes the amount spent on rail subsidy and even HS2 look like loose change. Diverting even more money towards the NHS would only make things worse.
The difficulty with that line of reasoning is that almost every area of activity run by government, be it national or local, is looked upon as inefficient, bloated and in need of reform, including railways. Looking from outside every one of them it's easy to make those observations. From inside the same observations are made about other sections within.

The sad thing is that we've all been able to see that throwing more money at any of them isn't getting sufficiently better results. In not a few the more money that goes in the worse it seems to get. Or is this the cynicism of one who's seen many changes as basic jobs got more and more complicated with paperwork replaced by masses of computerised records that become incompatible with one another. In the hospital context we end up with the poor patient rushed to hospital to be left lying for hours for attention without food and unable to access a toilet without family help. Or getting from Newcastle to Canterbury by train in an excellent 4 hours, but taking all day to get back.

Britain is working badly but we seem powerless to put it right. It needs lots of carefully focussed small measures connecting together with experience recognised and rewarded. Shovelling out more dosh without getting greater efficiencies perpetuates the problems.

How we resolve the cross currents of railway finance between the desires to get more off the roads, cut costs and increase revenue in a scenario where all statistics are skewed by post-Covid and strike effects is a challenge for any management.
 

Horizon22

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Drive into central London regularly, do you?

I don't think any London terminal has been unserved during the strikes, except with a complete suspension of all trains as a few TOCs did. There's generally still a skeleton service, even on an ASLEF strike day. It might be convoluted and long and might also require the Underground and buses, but is theoretically possible.

I don't agree with the overall premise and of course its nowhere near the service frequency we should be expecting but after the 4th/5th round of strikes, people have started to adapt accordingly.
 

paul1609

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It seems to me the only people who think that are on here.



Drive into central London regularly, do you?
Last Saturday, I drove to North Woolwich and caught the tube. if the tube was on strike, Id have caught the bus or boat or uber.
It's only really certain corridors where its difficult to find alternatives to mainline rail in to Central London. Kent isn't one of them.
 

The Ham

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What makes you think the DfT are interested in growing revenue? That would require investment which the Government won't sanction.

Assuming that there's very little difference to the NR costs regardless of the number of trains which run along a line, the busier the line the more the NR costs are spread amongst those using it the easier it is to recover the costs.

For example a line with 1tph still has to be inspected just as much as one with 2tph (even if it's more regularly it's unlikely to be twice as registry), or to have a signaler controlling the track (other than first last may be earlier later) 6tph is no more cost than 1tph.

It is course depends on who the risk is applied.

DfT agree a minimum service level it costs them 20 for the TOC to run that service.

DfT agrees a +A service level it costs them 20 plus any losses for that +A costs but doesn't recover.

DfT agree a minimum service level but with TOC permitted to take risks (i.e. TOC is the one who loses money if they run lose making services) with a profit sharing mechanism.

The government would be scared of the second, but would have no issue with the third. As the third means they pay out a maximum of 20 but could get something extra back if the extra services do well.

Surely all the TOCs are making a stonking loss on the services they already provide? Ive seen it suggested on here that LNER a niche provider of Express regional services from London to Yorkshire, Tyneside and Scotland is one of the best performing in passenger numbers but its income per passenger/km is down by 30%
It would seem to me that its inevitable that more revenue=more services=more subsidy.
Personally as a taxpayer if we have available funds Id rather it spent on the NHS, education etc. Indeed Id rather that existing money was moved away from the rail industry to support the NHS etc.

I'd be interested to see the data for the -30% on income pretty passenger per km, I wonder if it is only looking at the latest quarter or if it's based on the last 12 months of data. As the latter could be much worse than the former, as Q3 of 2021/22 had Covid restrictions (at least Christmas parties being cancelled), so would have been hard to attract passengers.

Id suggest that the rail industry has really moved to a "nice to have" rather than an "essential service" probably when the power stations stopped burning coal compounded by the work from home revolution.
There really isn't a journey where a train strike means there's no alternative now. Sadly a lot of people working in the industry don't seem to recognise that yet.

If you look at the rail use data for November WFH allowed a lot of rail travel to be paused for the strike days, but then saw spikes afterwards. Almost as if people were going to the office when the strikes weren't on.


That graph also implies an upwards tend between Q2 (July to September) and Q3 (October to December), even though the strikes are ongoing.

If the strikes were to be resolved it's likely that rail use would see a reasonable increase in use (and quite possibly over what would be expected if you just tallied up the bin strike days usage).
 

Trainbike46

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For a lot of people, including me, the response to railway strikes was to shift travel to non-strike days, or to not travel at all (WFH, skip the theatre, not visit grandma this week, etc.)

The fact that people can work around the limited service for a relatively small number of strike days, does not mean that the railways are not essential for the long term.
 

Horizon22

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For a lot of people, including me, the response to railway strikes was to shift travel to non-strike days, or to not travel at all (WFH, skip the theatre, not visit grandma this week, etc.)

The fact that people can work around the limited service for a relatively small number of strike days, does not mean that the railways are not essential for the long term.

This is key. People adapt to the various strike days - for instance in the last one Wednesday seemed busier than usual. For a one-off week, people who have the option to WFH are flexible about it and most employers are understanding. For those that can't, they take the short-term disruption. If it was 2 weeks solid of strikes, then it would be a completely different matter.
 

miklcct

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There really isn't a journey where a train strike means there's no alternative now.

For a lot of people, including me, the response to railway strikes was to shift travel to non-strike days, or to not travel at all (WFH, skip the theatre, not visit grandma this week, etc.)

The fact that people can work around the limited service for a relatively small number of strike days, does not mean that the railways are not essential for the long term.
The railway is a monopoly in public transport in most of the country, except for the small areas which are served by buses, boats and coaches.

When the railways fail, the only possible response is to:
- not to travel at all
- shift travel to non-strike days
- if you are rich enough, drive a car or take a taxi / minicab

Therefore I have moved to a place where the railway is not a monopoly to avoid the above as most of my travel can't be rescheduled.
 

43066

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Last Saturday, I drove to North Woolwich and caught the tube. if the tube was on strike, Id have caught the bus or boat or uber.
It's only really certain corridors where its difficult to find alternatives to mainline rail in to Central London. Kent isn't one of them.

The majority of people, especially in that part of Kent, most likely simply wouldn’t bother making a journey like that. Hence why London has been much quieter than usual during strike days. The cost to the economy (according to various sources) is into the billions.

If rail is only a “nice to have”, and not an essential service, why is the government introducing anti strike legislation?

I don't think any London terminal has been unserved during the strikes, except with a complete suspension of all trains as a few TOCs did. There's generally still a skeleton service, even on an ASLEF strike day. It might be convoluted and long and might also require the Underground and buses, but is theoretically possible.

I don't agree with the overall premise and of course its nowhere near the service frequency we should be expecting but after the 4th/5th round of strikes, people have started to adapt accordingly.

It’s clear that the strikes have a major impact, though. Perhaps less than pre Covid, but significant nonetheless. It completely mystifies me why certain posters on a site for “railway enthusiasts” are so keen to talk the railway’s importance down (usually hand in hand with moaning about unions and strikes!).

The railway is apparently back to carrying circa. 2009/2010 passenger numbers and I don’t remember it being exactly quiet then!
 

Horizon22

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It’s clear that the strikes have a major impact, though. Perhaps less than pre Covid, but significant nonetheless. It completely mystifies me why certain posters on a site for “railway enthusiasts” are so keen to talk the railway’s importance down (usually hand in hand with moaning about unions and strikes!).

The railway is apparently back to carrying circa. 2009/2010 passenger numbers and I don’t remember it being exactly quiet then!

Oh of course they've had an impact but for the main passengers that have traditionally formed the bulk of the passenger user base (relatively wealthy London & SE commuters) there is now an alternative that didn't exist in a meaningful and structured manned pre-Covid.

Passengers numbers might be equivalent to that but the day & time distribution of those passengers is all skewed to what it was traditionally and crucially revenue is not the same - lots of the passener rebound through cheap advances and off-peak weekend travel.
 

Trainbike46

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It’s clear that the strikes have a major impact, though. Perhaps less than pre Covid, but significant nonetheless. It completely mystifies me why certain posters on a site for “railway enthusiasts” are so keen to talk the railway’s importance down (usually hand in hand with moaning about unions and strikes!).
I agree with you here, I don't get why some posters on this site seem to have a strong dislike for railways, and sometimes public transport in general
 

tbtc

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Ive seen it suggested on here that LNER a niche provider of Express regional services from London to Yorkshire, Tyneside and Scotland is one of the best performing in passenger numbers but its income per passenger/km is down by 30%

Ouch!

I hadn’t seen that stat

I certainly wouldn't. You're aware that the NHS is hugely bloated and inefficient

… whereas the railway is…

I'm not convinced that primary and secondary education needs vast additional sums spent on it. The educational system seems to be awash with new schools

It’s almost thirteen years since the incoming Cameron government scrapped the Building Schools for the Future program and caused a huge backlog in projects (which had only been marginally tackled since then)

Labour had eradicated the culture of portakabins/ buckets on the floor of crumbling Victorian buildings to collect rain water but things have gone backwards over the past decade

That's a lot of income lost and, whatever gloss others may want to put on it, seems unlikely to be significantly improved.
Some realism looks overdue if we are to find an effective way forward.

Agreed, and I can’t see the current government taking a “softly softly” approach… they’ll want instant savings

after the 4th/5th round of strikes, people have started to adapt accordingly

That’s the problem for Unions

Strikes are scary to passengers (you only get so many days of annual leave, you planned to focus them on the school holidays because childcare is so expensive but you’re having to waste one on a random Tuesday because there’s no train to work)

But after a few strikes, people start to adapt, Until the point where Future strikes are annoying but not the end of the world - people no longer fear the threat
 

12LDA28C

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Id suggest that the rail industry has really moved to a "nice to have" rather than an "essential service" probably when the power stations stopped burning coal compounded by the work from home revolution.
So no other freight is moved by rail then, except coal?
 

43066

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there is now an alternative that didn't exist in a meaningful and structured manned pre-Covid.

Most people I know who work from home are drifting back a few days a week. There’s also the leisure/tourism side of things in London to consider, hence huge numbers of Xmas parties being cancelled.


crucially revenue is not the same -

The focus on revenue rather misses the wider economic picture of why the railway attracts a subsidy in the first place, though.

A relatively modest pay rise early on (for example 6% - in line with average wage growth and still below inflation) would have settled these disputes. That would arguably have been a more responsible approach for the wider economy, and would better enable the railway to grow revenue. As a tax payer I’d rather see that kind of pragmatism than ideological warfare (which based on news reports today looks set to continue).
 

12LDA28C

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Assuming that there's very little difference to the NR costs regardless of the number of trains which run along a line, the busier the line the more the NR costs are spread amongst those using it the easier it is to recover the costs.

For example a line with 1tph still has to be inspected just as much as one with 2tph (even if it's more regularly it's unlikely to be twice as registry), or to have a signaler controlling the track (other than first last may be earlier later) 6tph is no more cost than 1tph.

It is course depends on who the risk is applied.

DfT agree a minimum service level it costs them 20 for the TOC to run that service.

DfT agrees a +A service level it costs them 20 plus any losses for that +A costs but doesn't recover.

DfT agree a minimum service level but with TOC permitted to take risks (i.e. TOC is the one who loses money if they run lose making services) with a profit sharing mechanism.

The government would be scared of the second, but would have no issue with the third. As the third means they pay out a maximum of 20 but could get something extra back if the extra services do well.



I'd be interested to see the data for the -30% on income pretty passenger per km, I wonder if it is only looking at the latest quarter or if it's based on the last 12 months of data. As the latter could be much worse than the former, as Q3 of 2021/22 had Covid restrictions (at least Christmas parties being cancelled), so would have been hard to attract passengers.



If you look at the rail use data for November WFH allowed a lot of rail travel to be paused for the strike days, but then saw spikes afterwards. Almost as if people were going to the office when the strikes weren't on.


That graph also implies an upwards tend between Q2 (July to September) and Q3 (October to December), even though the strikes are ongoing.

If the strikes were to be resolved it's likely that rail use would see a reasonable increase in use (and quite possibly over what would be expected if you just tallied up the bin strike days usage).

I think you're misunderstanding my point. Let's give an example that a TOC is short of drivers or maintenance staff and needs to recruit heavily in order to reduce a reliance on RDW / overtime to run even the most basic of services successfully. They put forward a case to the DfT explaining the situation and asking the DfT to authorise the recruitment of X number of staff. The DfT says no, because that costs money. That exact situation is happening right now.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Surely all the TOCs are making a stonking loss on the services they already provide? Ive seen it suggested on here that LNER a niche provider of Express regional services from London to Yorkshire, Tyneside and Scotland is one of the best performing in passenger numbers but its income per passenger/km is down by 30%
It would seem to me that its inevitable that more revenue=more services=more subsidy.
Personally as a taxpayer if we have available funds Id rather it spent on the NHS, education etc. Indeed Id rather that existing money was moved away from the rail industry to support the NHS etc.
Well if you want something that works, and doesn’t mean abstraction as you may see it from the NHS, then you nationalise it.

And all told, the NHS is better in the long run from people using trains than cars, particularly in urban areas, which is an interesting alternative for people to consider.

Indeed, better trains and more restrictive automotive financials (eg more low emission or congestion charge zones) might get people to do a bit more walking of a daytime, meaning they get a bit less rotund and also aren’t in smoggy towns and cities.

The government knows the railway can produce significant benefits in terms of higher-wage and high-skilled jobs, and that investment will get returns. They elect not to for ideological rather than educated reasoning.

Nationalisation should also, like in Germany and Switzerland for example, mean longer “trunk” trains between major towns and cities with branch line services connecting. E.g. a longer train from Manchester to Scotland, and from Birmingham / Euston to Scotland, and vastly better frequency services and therefore connections at places like Preston and Lancaster, eliminating the need for vanity through services which don’t make the money.
 

Horizon22

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Most people I know who work from home are drifting back a few days a week. There’s also the leisure/tourism side of things in London to consider, hence huge numbers of Xmas parties being cancelled.

Yes, but many can agree with their employer "oh there's a strike on, do you mind if I take an extra day WFH?" because at least they'll be more productive

The focus on revenue rather misses the wider economic picture of why the railway attracts a subsidy in the first place, though.

A relatively modest pay rise early on (for example 6% - in line with average wage growth and still below inflation) would have settled these disputes.

Sure, but we are where we are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That's because it's not true, they are at pre-Covid levels of passenger numbers but 90% of revenue.

That isn't borne out by the data, otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess we are currently in. Nobody has suggested that across a normal week there is 100% of pre-Covid passengers. Some weekends yes - and even above 100% in places - but not overall.
 

The Ham

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Oh of course they've had an impact but for the main passengers that have traditionally formed the bulk of the passenger user base (relatively wealthy London & SE commuters) there is now an alternative that didn't exist in a meaningful and structured manned pre-Covid.

Passengers numbers might be equivalent to that but the day & time distribution of those passengers is all skewed to what it was traditionally and crucially revenue is not the same - lots of the passener rebound through cheap advances and off-peak weekend travel.

Other than the tables for passenger revenue by sector (ORR table 1211), which is shown in real terms (i.e. includes inflation) also has revenue not that far adrift from 2009 values:

Sector, revenue for Q2 2022/23 - last at that point (2009, revenue for Q2 2009/10)

Long distance, 714 - October 2006 (2009, 761)
London & SE, 1,079 - July 2009 (2009, 1,051)
Regional, 360 - Jan 2012 (2009, 324)

Total 2,253 now whilst 2009 it was 2,136.

Arguably with TPE, XC and Avanti doing badly it's no surprise that long distance is further behind the other sectors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think you're misunderstanding my point. Let's give an example that a TOC is short of drivers or maintenance staff and needs to recruit heavily in order to reduce a reliance on RDW / overtime to run even the most basic of services successfully. They put forward a case to the DfT explaining the situation and asking the DfT to authorise the recruitment of X number of staff. The DfT says no, because that costs money. That exact situation is happening right now.

Which is mad and why any cuts should be based on a "business case", not just what the total costs are (as if you could spend £1 million but know you'll earn £3 million the cost had gone up, even though the cost to the DfT had gone down - even before you consider the tax income from a larger economy from those extra services).
 

Horizon22

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Other than the tables for passenger revenue by sector (ORR table 1211), which is shown in real terms (i.e. includes inflation) also has revenue not that far adrift from 2009 values:

Sector, revenue for Q2 2022/23 - last at that point (2009, revenue for Q2 2009/10)

Long distance, 714 - October 2006 (2009, 761)
London & SE, 1,079 - July 2009 (2009, 1,051)
Regional, 360 - Jan 2012 (2009, 324)

Total 2,253 now whilst 2009 it was 2,136.

Ah I should have been more careful - revenue is possibly the same, but I believe costs aren't?
 

ar10642

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Most people I know who work from home are drifting back a few days a week. There’s also the leisure/tourism side of things in London to consider, hence huge numbers of Xmas parties being cancelled.

Right, but the government did consider that and decided it didn't care. Likewise with the first week back in January. Quite what you all think extra strikes are going to achieve at this point I don't know.
 

Horizon22

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Which is mad and why any cuts should be based on a "business case", not just what the total costs are (as if you could spend £1 million but know you'll earn £3 million the cost had gone up, even though the cost to the DfT had gone down - even before you consider the tax income from a larger economy from those extra services).

The DfT know the cost of everything and the value of nothing...
 

43066

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Right, but the government did consider that and decided it didn't care. Likewise with the first week back in January. Quite what you all think extra strikes are going to achieve at this point I don't know.

Well then the action needs to continue for as long it takes until the government is forced to care, and agree a sensible deal.
 

12LDA28C

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Well then the action needs to continue for as long it takes until the government is forced to care, and agree a sensible deal.
I'm not sure where the RMT has left to go. They played their ace in December / January, caused huge disruption and some parts of the network to have greatly reduced or zero service for weeks on end and the Government's response was barely a metaphorical shrug of the shoulders.
 

Trainbike46

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They are.
Does that mean the DfT believes the savings from not having enough drivers to run timetables are worth the negative effects on passenger income (and delay repay expenditure)? or that, where TOCs have filed requests to hire more staff to fill a shortage were, in fact, granted?
 

Bald Rick

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Does that mean the DfT believes the savings from not having enough drivers to run timetables are worth the negative effects on passenger income (and delay repay expenditure)? or that, where TOCs have filed requests to hire more staff to fill a shortage were, in fact, granted?

Im not sure how to answer that question. Of course there were (and indeed are) enough drivers to run the timetable until something changed, but let’s not get into that again.
 
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