Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Bletchleyite]

This is pretty much how I understand it as well. Then after 6-12 months of this process, the DfT will claim that there is no need for the guards and will go down the mandatory redundancy route for all guards. This is why the drivers are refusing to accept the terms and want the guards to have full control of the doors because a) it's safer and b) scousers will always look out for their own and there is no way drivers will want to accept terms that ultimately leads to their colleagues losing their jobs

It's not safer as it is. I can't see how it could possibly be less safe to have two pairs of eyes involved in the process than one. It's not "regular" DOO, it's more like DOO with both a dispatcher and screens, which is without doubt safer than classic guard dispatch without a dispatcher.

And if they think they're helping with the latter, why don't they just respect the fact that the RMT have decided that democratically by way of a ballot of their members? They could have chosen not to. But they did. This should be respected.

I get that they may not want the extra responsibility, but I think the other two points are fallacious.

 

[Sam 76]

It's not safer as it is. I can't see how it could possibly be less safe to have two pairs of eyes involved in the process than one. It's not "regular" DOO, it's more like DOO with both a dispatcher and screens, which is without doubt safer than classic guard dispatch without a dispatcher.

And if they think they're helping with the latter, why don't they just respect the fact that the RMT have decided that democratically by way of a ballot of their members? They could have chosen not to. But they did. This should be respected.

I get that they may not want the extra responsibility, but I think the other two points are fallacious.

One little thing to add and correct me if I’m wrong of course. Let’s say hypothetically next year the DFT do argue that then it would be put to a ballot and lead to strikes etc. I can’t see anyone involved wanting that but regardless any changes of terms would have to go through another ballot ?

 

[baldyman26]

I wonder how much more the drivers have received to help with the democratic vote. In my opinion its been cash first before anything, and all this blumf about DOO has just been a tool to line their pockets.

 

[Vespa]

This is pretty much why I said before, if ASLEF decides to be too difficult and delay the introduction of the 777 and running out of 507/8 to run a service.in the hope of extracting extra money, it's not the first time an operating company shuts down make everybody redundant and new company will be set up with a completely different contract, it's a risky game to play.

Striking yourself out of a job.

 

[jamesst]

This is pretty much why I said before, if ASLEF decides to be too difficult and delay the introduction of the 777 and running out of 507/8 to run a service.in the hope of extracting extra money, it's not the first time an operating company shuts down make everybody redundant and new company will be set up with a completely different contract, it's a risky game to play.

Striking yourself out of a job.

And again I'll remind you ASLEF have recommended acceptance to each proposal, its drivers that have voted no. And not necessarily for extra money or the DOO part, indeed a large part was due to some of the proposed training methods and changes to certain roles in the grade.
Indeed the company has even admitted after the 1st result that it got certain aspects wrong and has taken steps to rectify that.

 

[Sheldonian]

What ever the reasons, and who ever is to blame, pathetic in the extreme that a fleet of new vehicles are ordered, built at significant cost and then cant be used.
Would be hillarious if it wasnt so sad.
They will be obsolete by the time they are introduced.
Needs the right kind of people to move this situation forward. Sadly all negotiations now seem to be a bit like a car hitting a brick wall.

 

[Vespa]

And again I'll remind you ASLEF have recommended acceptance to each proposal, its drivers that have voted no. And not necessarily for extra money or the DOO part, indeed a large part was due to some of the proposed training methods and changes to certain roles in the grade.
Indeed the company has even admitted after the 1st result that it got certain aspects wrong and has taken steps to rectify that.

My point precisely, since the drivers have voted no because they don't want to do a bit more, DOO have been going on for quite a while now, there's a pretty good chance the company will eventually close down and hand over to a new franchise with new contracts.

Ergo est:
"Striking themselves out of a job."

 

[Sheldonian]

There can be no compromise on safety and DOO is wrong on many levels but already in operation elsewhere.
To still be butting heads now is just a collossal waste of time, money, energy and resources.
These issues should have been ironed out before the flippin things were built

 

[Bletchleyite]

There can be no compromise on safety

There isn't. I can't see how the new "two pairs of eyes" system isn't vastly, vastly safer than what went before.

 

[Sam 76]

My point precisely, since the drivers have voted no because they don't want to do a bit more, DOO have been going on for quite a while now, there's a pretty good chance the company will eventually close down and hand over to a new franchise with new contracts.

Ergo est:
"Striking themselves out of a job."

There’s little to no chance of that in my view. In the very worst case scenario I think we would end up with a reduced service like that of last summer on a temporary basis. Giving up a franchise wouldn’t solve anything as people would rightly not sign up to the new contracts of the new franchise and then Merseyrail end up with no drivers for 2-3 years as the new people start

 

[slowroad]

There isn't. I can't see how the new "two pairs of eyes" system isn't vastly, vastly safer than what went before.

There are always compromises on safety else you’d have to spend an infinite amount on it. And spending too much on it just pushes people onto other, less safe forms of transport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==

There are always compromises on safety else you’d have to spend an infinite amount on it. And spending too much on it just pushes people onto other, less safe forms of transport.

Sorry, meant this as a reply to the earlier post saying you shouldn’t compromise on safety……

 

[Energy]

There can be no compromise on safety and DOO is wrong on many levels but already in operation elsewhere.
To still be butting heads now is just a collossal waste of time, money, energy and resources.
These issues should have been ironed out before the flippin things were built

DOO (specifically doors) has been proved to be more safe before, the unions objections are about protecting jobs. Think of it this way, the guard has to look down the length of the entire train, the driver can see every carriage on CCTV monitors.

 

[jamesst]

My point precisely, since the drivers have voted no because they don't want to do a bit more, DOO have been going on for quite a while now, there's a pretty good chance the company will eventually close down and hand over to a new franchise with new contracts.

Ergo est:
"Striking themselves out of a job."

Yeah yet again you're missing the point because you're trying to push the sack everyone agenda.
Drivers have NOT voted no because they 'don't want to do a bit more', indeed many drivers are looking forward to new stock with the state of the cabs in the current fleet!!
Drivers voted no because there were lots of issues with the first deal which quite frankly are between the company, aslef and drivers.
As I've already said before the new offer resolves most of those issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I've already said before the new offer resolves most of those issues.

Hopefully then it'll be accepted and things can move forward. When's the result due again?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==

DOO (specifically doors) has been proved to be more safe before

I can't see how the new system can't be safer. The guard does a check first (which might e.g. see someone running towards the train that you might not see on DOO cameras, or someone who's fallen down the gap) then the driver does a final check using the monitors, closes up, checks again and goes.

There is of course a risk they then abolish that role, but how long has the Southern OBS been going now? We all thought that would be quietly canned and it wasn't. And of course if they did seek to do that, then ASLEF could start a new dispute on that basis.

 

[Bow Fell]

Yeah yet again you're missing the point because you're trying to push the sack everyone agenda.
Drivers have NOT voted no because they 'don't want to do a bit more', indeed many drivers are looking forward to new stock with the state of the cabs in the current fleet!!
Drivers voted no because there were lots of issues with the first deal which quite frankly are between the company, aslef and drivers.
As I've already said before the new offer resolves most of those issues.

Exactly! The amount of hyperbole and exaggeration on here is unreal, but that’s never a surprise!

The biggest issue and maybe it was a bit of an own goal from both sides was that the drivers main issue was that they were being asked to vote on something that they had little knowledge of, they hadn’t had the chance to go on a 777, look at the cab, physically see the new method of work, or even go on the simulator!

This time that should all be resolved.

 

[CE142]

I would rather a Guard looking down the side of the train, than a Driver looking at images on a camera in the cab. Many a time I have seen Drivers look out of the cab on DOO Services because the cameras aren't right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would rather a Guard looking down the side of the train, than a Driver looking at images on a camera in the cab. Many a time I have seen Drivers look out of the cab on DOO Services because the cameras aren't right.

Well, bonus, in this new system you get both.

 

[CE142]

Well, bonus, in this new system you get both.

Call me old fashioned, but I would much rather the Driver was making sure that the line ahead was clear and that any signals were showing a proceed aspect! Rather than trying to work out if those two lads stood on the platform are getting on or not. As the Driver wont be able to monitor the cameras once the train starts to move and also keep looking ahead. That's the job of the Guard, so why not have the Guard open and close the doors and keep a check on the train and platform as it leave the station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rather than trying to work out if those two lads stood on the platform are getting on or not.

On the new Merseyrail proposal, that's the guard's job. Their duty is like a dispatcher giving the first tip - making sure station duties are complete before tapping the fob.

We'll still hear "Err yooze too gerrin on er no'" from time to time.

(Interestingly German U- and S-Bahn drivers have outside PA for doing exactly that. Zurueckbleiben bitte!)

keep a check on the train and platform as it leave the station?

They can't usefully do this on the vast majority of UK stock as it doesn't have droplights. Looking out of the door window means you see hardly anything. In effect once you give the "buzz buzz" the train is going to depart regardless, there is very little chance of a dangerous occurrence that starts after that being prevented. So DOO doesn't make this any worse, really, unless you're going to ban guards from dispatching from passenger doors and fit droplights to stock that doesn't have them at all (e.g. Pendolinos and Voyagers).

Merseyrail guards used to be allowed to stand by the open guard's door and typically closed it at the end of the platform, but I understand that's no longer allowed, though the doors still aren't interlocked and so they do tend to give the "ding ding" and only close it when the wheels start turning.

 

[92002]

Hopefully then it'll be accepted and things can move forward. When's the result due again?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==



I can't see how the new system can't be safer. The guard does a check first (which might e.g. see someone running towards the train that you might not see on DOO cameras, or someone who's fallen down the gap) then the driver does a final check using the monitors, closes up, checks again and goes.

There is of course a risk they then abolish that role, but how long has the Southern OBS been going now? We all thought that would be quietly canned and it wasn't. And of course if they did seek to do that, then ASLEF could start a new dispute on that basis.

Its interesting to look back to the early 80s with the Strathclyde Manning Agreement. Trains were put to DOO operations. Guards were retained at their current rate and employed as Ticket examiners and more were taken on to protect revrnue. As guards moved on to other posts more Ticket Examiners were recruited and revenue rose substantially. All this system was agrees by the labour controlled Regional Council. Who wanted value for their funding.

Many similarities here to be learned.

The system has now been in use for nearly 40 years. Everybody had a useful place in the system and are part of the team. With rising revenue paying for the staff and operation at a much reduced overall cost. The system was recently extended to Edinburgh with the oprning of the new line via Bathgate. More to the point it has safely worked all this time.

 

[OutdoorM]

That was my belief as to the initial planned changes. Changing the guard to a more protecting of the revenue and passenger reassurance role, which would have likely generated more revenue due to reduced fare avoidance and passengers feeling safer so more confident to use train

 

[Energy]

Call me old fashioned, but I would much rather the Driver was making sure that the line ahead was clear and that any signals were showing a proceed aspect!

I'm not a driver so I'm curious what they do while passengers are boarding, if you can see a signal going passed it at 125mph then you shouldn't need that long to read it while stationary (ofcourse the London terminus and the like have more signals so I'd imagine are more difficult)

As the Driver wont be able to monitor the cameras once the train starts to move and also keep looking ahead.

On a lot of stock the guard won't be able to see much with no droplights. A quick glance at the cameras should be able to see anything obvious.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Its becoming clear that ASLEF have no issue with the new role drivers and guards are expected play on Merseyrail class 777s. Maybe there is something drivers are yet to discover due to lack of exposure to the new trains - that is all. And it seems they are about to decide.

Call me old fashioned, but I would much rather the Driver was making sure that the line ahead was clear and that any signals were showing a proceed aspect! Rather than trying to work out if those two lads stood on the platform are getting on or not. As the Driver wont be able to monitor the cameras once the train starts to move and also keep looking ahead. That's the job of the Guard, so why not have the Guard open and close the doors and keep a check on the train and platform as it leave the station?

I assume the train doors have to be closed before the train moves. Therefore there will be no one becoming trapped in doors once the doors have closed and the train started moving. What is there to check once the train has started moving ?. With the doors closed the guard will not be able to see anything outside anyway. If someone wants to somehow attach themselves to the outside of the train once the doors are closed what is a realistic precaution ?. In the rest of the UK, the guard does not check outside at every station a train passes through non-stop do they ?.

Its interesting to look back to the early 80s with the Strathclyde Manning Agreement. Trains were put to DOO operations. Guards were retained at their current rate and employed as Ticket examiners and more were taken on to protect revrnue. As guards moved on to other posts more Ticket Examiners were recruited and revenue rose substantially. All this system was agrees by the labour controlled Regional Council. Who wanted value for their funding.

Many similarities here to be learned.

The system has now been in use for nearly 40 years. Everybody had a useful place in the system and are part of the team. With rising revenue paying for the staff and operation at a much reduced overall cost. The system was recently extended to Edinburgh with the oprning of the new line via Bathgate. More to the point it has safely worked all this time.

This is an example of progress. The onward march of technology changes the nature of jobs and in my experience leads to very little job loses but just a change in the nature of jobs and quite often for the better. The advent of mobile phones has not led to job loses, instead almost everyone has a mobile phone and many people are employed in an industry that did not exist forty years ago. Computers led to more interesting statements, bills and other features no job loses to speak of (mainly the drudgery of book keeping replaced by customer services ie interaction with people). Two hundred years ago were there masses of redundancies when these new fangled train things came along ?. Progress.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume the train doors have to be closed before the train moves. Therefore there will be no one becoming trapped in doors once the doors have closed and the train started moving. What is there to check once the train has started moving ?. With the doors closed the guard will not be able to see anything outside anyway. If someone wants to somehow attach themselves to the outside of the train once the doors are closed what is a realistic precaution ?. In the rest of the UK, the guard does not check outside at every station a train passes through non-stop do they ?.

The thing to check is the not insubstantial risk that someone runs for the train and ends up falling down the side of it as it pulls out. A check for that is a gap in most current UK dispatches bar those done from a droplight.

On the other hand, because so many dispatches don't have that, it's not a downgrade if the cameras are turned off when power is taken. And these units have other mitigations against that - the triangular shape on the lower bodyside is designed to deflect a runner who bounces off the train back onto the platform rather than down the side. Because of the two well-publicised recent incidents Merseyrail are very hot on this.

 

[Snow1964]

This is an example of progress. The onward march of technology changes the nature of jobs and in my experience leads to very little job loses but just a change in the nature of jobs and quite often for the better.

Of course things change over time, some things get automated (eg a cab climate control system with auto mode, previously might have had to fiddle with temperature control and vents every few minutes), having lost some tasks, reasonable to take on some new ones.

Just some try and misuse the changes over time.
I have not seen it listed the gains and losses in the job on a 777 vs a 507

 

[Skie]

I assume the train doors have to be closed before the train moves. Therefore there will be no one becoming trapped in doors once the doors have closed and the train started moving. What is there to check once the train has started moving ?. With the doors closed the guard will not be able to see anything outside anyway. If someone wants to somehow attach themselves to the outside of the train once the doors are closed what is a realistic precaution ?.

There have been a number of incidents over the years (in DOO land as well as not) where an item of clothing, a bag or even a dog leash, have gotten trapped in the doors and someone is dragged. Even on modern 'sensitive edge' doors. The 777's are supposed to have even better door protection, but you can never guarantee a safety system is infallible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There have been a number of incidents over the years (in DOO land as well as not) where an item of clothing, a bag or even a dog leash, have gotten trapped in the doors and someone is dragged. Even on modern 'sensitive edge' doors. The 777's are supposed to have even better door protection, but you can never guarantee a safety system is infallible.

Though there's no other regional service in the UK* where there will be two checks at every station, an initial one by the guard then a second by the driver. It theoretically should be the safest system in the country.

* There's Southern with the OBSs, but that isn't quite as positive a check and they don't have to actually confirm platform duties complete.

 

[Skie]

Though there's no other regional service in the UK* where there will be two checks at every station, an initial one by the guard then a second by the driver. It theoretically should be the safest system in the country.

True! The proposed system of working on Merseyrail will get more eyeballs on the interface that causes the most problems. And with the addition of the toblerones and 'super' sensitive edge doors it will hopefully avoid any trap and drag incidents on Merseyrail, and that would be a great result.

 

[Wezz]

True! The proposed system of working on Merseyrail will get more eyeballs on the interface that causes the most problems. And with the addition of the toblerones and 'super' sensitive edge doors it will hopefully avoid any trap and drag incidents on Merseyrail, and that would be a great result.

I can see us having major problems with the doors and teenage yobs sticking their hands in them thinking it's funny, but hopefully we bring in penalty fares to combat this.

 

[Ribbleman]

I can see us having major problems with the doors and teenage yobs sticking their hands in them thinking it's funny, but hopefully we bring in penalty fares to combat this.

There will always be a few idiots, but the presence of the Train Manager within the passenger accommodation, rather than in the rear cab, should deter most from misbehaving.