Northern cancellations getting worse

[Geeves]

I doubt the folks they have running the twitter could even keep up if the folks inside the company are constantly surprised at things going on / have no information. Last Leeds from Vic was cancelled tonight. Poor folks waiting for a replacement bus at Rochdale from the last stopper. Feel very sorry for them. Even Manchester control were surprised by it. What hope would the twitter person have?

 

[TUC]

I doubt the folks they have running the twitter could even keep up if the folks inside the company are constantly surprised at things going on / have no information. Last Leeds from Vic was cancelled tonight. Poor folks waiting for a replacement bus at Rochdale from the last stopper. Feel very sorry for them. Even Manchester control were surprised by it. What hope would the twitter person have?

So what is fundamentally going wrong with communication within Northern if even Control are unaware of a cancellation?

 

[Geeves]

Two controls operating two virtually separate franchises minus a couple of lines is definitely an issue regards to joined up thinking and communication not to mention the different operating practices of each side... Still.

 

[Confused52]

....

The Lime St - Warrington Central has been removed not because there’s no crew for them at all but to move the resources elsewhere if needed.

So the shuttle service for Warrington Liverpool, and hence a better service for Warrington West, is basically Northern's lowest priority. So we know where we are then!

 

[Matt_pool]

Once again, the 2022 is the last Northern service on the CLC from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road today (30/12/22).

Miss that and it's another 3 hour 14 minute wait until the last train at 2336. Fortunately it's 2 x 156's, but from past experience on a Friday evening it's best avoided, even more so on what is a very busy evening in Liverpool (the day before NYE and the pubs and bars are extremely busy, plus Liverpool are home to Leicester!).

Where's my bus!?

 

[JD2168]

You might be better off (marginally) on the "X"78 bus.

No X78 bus service on 1st January, Doncaster depot not running services on this date.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I might be wrong here but aren’t the next strikes 3 / 4 Jan? If so then why are Northern running next to nothing on 1 Jan? Have they given up all pretence of running a public transport service?

 

[Jamesrob637]

I might be wrong here but aren’t the next strikes 3 / 4 Jan? If so then why are Northern running next to nothing on 1 Jan? Have they given up all pretence of running a public transport service?

Northern run nothing in the North East on New Year's Day anyway, strikes or no strikes. But everywhere else will be sheer incompetence.

 

[Moonshot]

Northern run nothing in the North East on New Year's Day anyway, strikes or no strikes. But everywhere else will be sheer incompetence.

No guards. There is an overtime ban.

 

[Peterthegreat]

No guards. There is an overtime ban.

But someone (post 402) said there is no such thing as Bank Holidays on Northern.

 

[Moonshot]

But someone (post 402) said there is no such thing as Bank Holidays on Northern.

New year's Day is a Sunday.

 

[northernchris]

But someone (upthread?) said there is no such thing as Bank Holidays on Northern.

I suspect it's because New Years Day falls on a Sunday, which means a lot of shifts are covered by overtime. Had New Years Day fallen on a weekday I'd guess the timetable would have been similar to this week

 

[Peterthegreat]

I suspect it's because New Years Day falls on a Sunday, which means a lot of shifts are covered by overtime. Had New Years Day fallen on a weekday I'd guess the timetable would have been similar to this week

But Northern have operated a "normal" Sunday service in the east. Is this time different?

 

[Msq71423]

In our depot there are the usual staffing levels for conductors/drivers all scheduled to work this Sunday, but there won't be any trains at all. No-one understands why. As far as I know it will be the same on Monday and next Sunday also. It must be costing a fortune in wages to not run these trains.

 

[northernchris]

But Northern have operated a "normal" Sunday service in the east. Is this time different?

I think the 18th December was a very limited timetable, hopefully a more normal service will resume in the east once the overtime ban has come to an end.

In our depot there are the usual staffing levels for conductors/drivers all scheduled to work this Sunday, but there won't be any trains at all. No-one understands why. As far as I know it will be the same on Monday and next Sunday also. It must be costing a fortune in wages to not run these trains.

The journey planners are still showing a normal service for Monday, as does Northern's website. If it's the case that a very limited/no service will run, they need to be updating the information very soon!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Monday is a normal service on Northern, as normal as things can be anyway.

 

[jayah]

In our depot there are the usual staffing levels for conductors/drivers all scheduled to work this Sunday, but there won't be any trains at all. No-one understands why. As far as I know it will be the same on Monday and next Sunday also. It must be costing a fortune in wages to not run these trains.

Welcome to nationalisation. Nobody knows and nobody cares. But they all expect to get paid as long as it goes on.

 

[py_megapixel]

Welcome to nationalisation.

What does this...

Nobody knows and nobody cares. But they all expect to get paid as long as it goes on.

have to do with this?

 

[SuspectUsual]

What does this...


have to do with this?

Nothing whatsoever

 

[LYuen]

Welcome to nationalisation. Nobody knows and nobody cares. But they all expect to get paid as long as it goes on.

I think this is more of a problem for the so-called privatisation right now or future GBR. TOCs don't have the motivation to mitigate lost or being audited for service they can run but decided not to.
I mean, it is still possible TOCs in fact are unable to run the service due to shortage of station staff or signallers, we don't know. We need a non-segmented entity to know the big picture, while franchise based non risk-bearing privatisation has made this near impossible.

 

[tbtc]

What does this...


have to do with this?

A huge amount


The railway is in the west position it’s been in in twenty years (Hatfield being a low point that it was still recovering from in 2003)

But nobody has an incentive to resolve the outstanding problems right now (the ongoing strikes, the lack of certainty over the medium/ long term future of services), in fact elements of the Government seem to “enjoy” provoking industrial relations issues (I think Shapps relished the fight)

Pre-Covid we had TOCs with an incentive to get industrial relations problems resolved before strikes cost their shareholders, hence the above-inflation pay rises each year, the enhanced wages for taking additional shifts (like the TPE deal recently discussed on the Forum) - the likes of Stagecoach/ First would rather pay a bit more to keep the show on the road than see trains idle since that meant no income

Nowadays we see the different groups of staff taking turns to strike, because that way the others still get paid - the end result is that passengers are inconvenience for several days in a row - but nobody cares about that I guess

Branson/ Souter etc wouldn’t put up with this - franchise winners had signed “seven” year contracts promising to deliver a certain level of service improvements and maintain however many unprofitable journeys, in line with an agreed level of premium/ subsidy

Now though, we have TOCs who get paid regardless, with no incentive to rock the boat, a culture where all TOCs can cancel trains before ten o’clock at night with no consequences, we have the Operator Of Last Resort who’ll cancel the service on lines for months at a time because who’s going to strip the OLR off their responsibilities?

Nice work of you can get it, sure, but the passengers are getting a raw deal and the Government controlled railway seems to be letting them down badly at a time when the Railway needs to be winning people over rather than alienating them

Nationalisation isn’t working

 

[YorkshireBear]

A huge amount


The railway is in the west position it’s been in in twenty years (Hatfield being a low point that it was still recovering from in 2003)

But nobody has an incentive to resolve the outstanding problems right now (the ongoing strikes, the lack of certainty over the medium/ long term future of services), in fact elements of the Government seem to “enjoy” provoking industrial relations issues (I think Shapps relished the fight)

Pre-Covid we had TOCs with an incentive to get industrial relations problems resolved before strikes cost their shareholders, hence the above-inflation pay rises each year, the enhanced wages for taking additional shifts (like the TPE deal recently discussed on the Forum) - the likes of Stagecoach/ First would rather pay a bit more to keep the show on the road than see trains idle since that meant no income

Nowadays we see the different groups of staff taking turns to strike, because that way the others still get paid - the end result is that passengers are inconvenience for several days in a row - but nobody cares about that I guess

Branson/ Souter etc wouldn’t put up with this - franchise winners had signed “seven” year contracts promising to deliver a certain level of service improvements and maintain however many unprofitable journeys, in line with an agreed level of premium/ subsidy

Now though, we have TOCs who get paid regardless, with no incentive to rock the boat, a culture where all TOCs can cancel trains before ten o’clock at night with no consequences, we have the Operator Of Last Resort who’ll cancel the service on lines for months at a time because who’s going to strip the OLR off their responsibilities?

Nice work of you can get it, sure, but the passengers are getting a raw deal and the Government controlled railway seems to be letting them down badly at a time when the Railway needs to be winning people over rather than alienating them

Nationalisation isn’t working

Don't say that, you will be lynched.

Although many say there is currently more government control than under nationalisation so who knows what would work anymore. What is for certain the current government control is not sustainable especially when it is being driven by people with no experience of transport let alone rail who just bulldoze in and think they know best. There has been so many articles in various industry news circles recently with this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nationalisation isn’t working

This form of it certainly isn't.

The form that would is an arms length organisation with a budget and direction set and quality management at the top. We could call it, I don't know, "British Rail"?

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think you'll find anyone who will disagree with you that the Government has far too much day to day interference in the management of the railway.

Recent articles in the railway press suggest that we have two departments (DfT and treasury) pulling the industry in opposite directions, one demanding expenditure cuts with the other sucking up all the revenue.

This is surely more a result of this particular government's incompetence/internal conflict than any management model.

 

[py_megapixel]

Nationalisation isn’t working

This isn't what most advocates for nationalisation are actually advocating, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't what most advocates for nationalisation are actually advocating, though.

Exactly.

Pretty much all of us who advocate nationalisation advocate an arms length not-for-profit operation given direction by the politicians and left to get on with it. That's the only way any form of nationalised service provision ever really works in anything like a customer oriented manner. Isn't that the model e.g. Transport for Wales operates on?

I'd rather have 1995 style commercial freedom franchises than this mess.

 

[Killingworth]

After the negative messages not to use public transport during Covid some of us took our lives in our hands and did. We survived.

Now we can't travel by rail even if we want to risk the inevitable delays, over crowding and cancellations. One train stopped at my station on New Year's Day. Almost a full service on Monday, 2nd, then nothing on 3rd until a late start on the 8th. Noticeable that trains that have run through have been almost empty

Nationalistion, privatisation, fragmentation, dog's dinner? It's organisation we need, everyone pulling together, not pulling the industry apart.

DO NOT TRAVEL! What a way to build patronage and create more jobs.

 

[D6130]

DB Cargo and GBRf freight trains have been running normally today, as those companies are not in dispute with ASLEF. A friend of mine who is driver with GBRf texted me and told me how wonderful it was today to arrive over an hour early as 'there were no pesky Northern or LNER trains in the way'.
Unfortunately for him, there was therefore no train to bring him home from Doncaster to Keighley....so he had to drive a company van back through appalling traffic and weather conditions!

 

[tbtc]

Don't say that, you will be lynched

Yeah, don’t think I’m very popular in here these days, oh well…

But the industry is in a mess and a lot of people are in denial about the repercussions that lie ahead

This form of it certainly isn't.

The form that would is an arms length organisation with a budget and direction set and quality management at the top. We could call it, I don't know, "British Rail"?

I genuinely thought about putting “…ooh, I know, we could paint them all blue and call it British Rail” in the Forum Catchphrases thread

There was no chance of the current Government giving you the “Proper Railwayman” model of BR that you’ve talked about in the past

Look at how schools/ hospitals/ libraries/ prisons/ infrastructure etc has been since 2010 and tell me what you honestly expected Nationalisation under the current government to be like?

Because the “arms length” model seems like Railway FanFiction to me

(And even in the supposed “glory days” of BR, the government must have interfered quite a lot since they seem to get blamed for all of the negative things that happened in that era, the “rationalisation” of junctions, the line closures, the service cuts, the “Two for Three” replacement of rolling stock, station closures each year, the “replacing loco hauled trains by two coach 155s and then chopping those 155s in half to make do with 153s”… all these “bad” things get attributed to the wicked Government whilst BR takes the praise for all of the good things)

This isn't what most advocates for nationalisation are actually advocating, though.

It doesn’t matter what idealistic version the advocates wanted, there was only ever the “Status Quo” or “being run by the government of the day”

And, after a decade of austerity that had starved most of the public sector of funds, what did people honestly think would happen? That the Tory Prime Minister would simply guarantee billions of pounds a year to an industry that they didn’t scrutinise, and leave a “Proper Railwayman” to get on with the job unbothered by politicians?

If you want Government control then that means Government control under whoever the ruling party/ PM are, not just when The Good Guys are in power (if there are any politicians you’d trust)

Complaining that Government control means control by the current incompetent shower is a bit like complaining that you didn’t get the Brexit you voted for (as if it’s somehow surprising that we ended up with the “little Englander” version we did)

No model is perfect, but if you didn’t like the 2019 version of privatisation then the only “change” option was putting everything in the hands of whoever the Government is - how’s that worked out?

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, don’t think I’m very popular in here these days, oh well…

But the industry is in a mess and a lot of people are in denial about the repercussions that lie ahead



I genuinely thought about putting “…ooh, I know, we could paint them all blue and call it British Rail” in the Forum Catchphrases thread

There was no chance of the current Government giving you the “Proper Railwayman” model of BR that you’ve talked about in the past

Look at how schools/ hospitals/ libraries/ prisons/ infrastructure etc has been since 2010 and tell me what you honestly expected Nationalisation under the current government to be like?

Because the “arms length” model seems like Railway FanFiction to me

(And even in the supposed “glory days” of BR, the government must have interfered quite a lot since they seem to get blamed for all of the negative things that happened in that era, the “rationalisation” of junctions, the line closures, the service cuts, the “Two for Three” replacement of rolling stock, station closures each year, the “replacing loco hauled trains by two coach 155s and then chopping those 155s in half to make do with 153s”… all these “bad” things get attributed to the wicked Government whilst BR takes the praise for all of the good things)



It doesn’t matter what idealistic version the advocates wanted, there was only ever the “Status Quo” or “being run by the government of the day”

And, after a decade of austerity that had starved most of the public sector of funds, what did people honestly think would happen? That the Tory Prime Minister would simply guarantee billions of pounds a year to an industry that they didn’t scrutinise, and leave a “Proper Railwayman” to get on with the job unbothered by politicians?

If you want Government control then that means Government control under whoever the ruling party/ PM are, not just when The Good Guys are in power (if there are any politicians you’d trust)

Complaining that Government control means control by the current incompetent shower is a bit like complaining that you didn’t get the Brexit you voted for (as if it’s somehow surprising that we ended up with the “little Englander” version we did)

No model is perfect, but if you didn’t like the 2019 version of privatisation then the only “change” option was putting everything in the hands of whoever the Government is - how’s that worked out?

I don't really see your point.

No one called for this pigs ear form of railway management except for this Government, who seemingly threw it together to undertake cuts.

People on this forum who prefer an element of public accountability generally suggest a model of governance with that suggestion.

You clearly don't agree with the way this government is managing the railway, yet I don't recall hearing you criticise the government for any of this. If anything, you seem to be egging them on to more cuts. You seem to be more interested in making pointed remarks about people on this forum.