Not having a valid ticket upon my person...and yet I did.

[djw1981]

How do you expect them to treat people who have been 'on a night out' - being out late doesn't change your behaviour. If you mean that you were intoxicated / drunk then of course they will approach with caution and potentially in 2 or 3's as this is often the times when staff are attacked. If you displayed the same argumentative beligerant arrogant 'I;m right' attitude to them that you did on here then I am unsurprised that they were not sympathetic to you alleged misplacement of tickets.

The fact remains that you did not, when requested, produce a valid ticket. Thus you are in breach of the regulation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Itls not that common to have so many old tickets you can;t find the most recent - usually it would be on top. an dif you are carryoinhg so many that you risk breaching the bye;law regarding ticket production, maybe this will be an expensive remider to dispose of your rubbish and used tickets more frequently.

 

[jon0844]

I am finding it strange to picture a scenario where you knew you had a ticket (of course you did, you bought it) and never thought to demand time to find it.

RPIs don't always expect a ticket to be extended in your hand to be shown in their face. They can, and do, wait.. sometimes for very long times when they must be coming to the conclusion that you're trying it on (and hoping they'll say 'I'll come back' or 'never mind').

This didn't happen here, but you aren't giving a very good explanation as to why you didn't go and look - or even just pull out the mountain of tickets to show that you do normally buy them.

Suffice to say, I'm now beginning to think that something in this story stinks. Such is my cynical nature I'm afraid, so I apologise in advance, yet history proves me right most of the time.

 

[b0b]

The problem is what the system is designed to give pain to a genuine customer who makes a simple mistake (like the OP if we believe him).

The answer is to switch it around:
(a) Always issue the maximum penalty
(b) Inform the passenger of how to contact a "central authority" and provide forgotten tickets / railcards
(c) Central Authority tracks claims by users; one-off mistakes are forgiven, repeated "mistakes" create evidence for prosecution.

I know thats all "too hard" - even though there are central authorities for chasing up PF's / UPFNs. :roll:

 

[island]

There is already a facility in place for people to forget a season ticket twice a year. Perhaps they could make an extension of this.

 

[b0b]

This didn't happen here, but you aren't giving a very good explanation as to why you didn't go and look - or even just pull out the mountain of tickets to show that you do normally buy them.

Not defending the OP, but I've believed I've forgotten my season ticket because I've been unable to find it in the pockets of my jeans and conceded to the guard I forgot it, but then I get home and it was in my coat pocket the whole time.

So it can happen...

 

[jon0844]

I can understand that, but I presume you looked?! I seem to be reading this as if the group of heavy handed RPIs who didn't even trust people showed a valid ticket put so much pressure on that the victim couldn't even look or insist that he had one (or even suggest where it might be) and be given time to try and produce it. I am sure as time goes on, the story will be bolstered up even more.

The ticket was quickly found afterwards though, which is convenient!

I've forgotten my season ticket too, but thanks to the gates I realised before travelling - and simply bought a new ticket and claimed it back. If I had gone through and been caught, I'd have initially presumed I'd lost it - but in any case, I would have paid the penalty and then made a claim on the basis that, with a season ticket, it can be proven that I did have a ticket and it wasn't transferred to anyone else.

I have to apologise again for being so cynical!

 

[Chew Chew]

Nobody spoke rationally, as you would to someone who'd been on a night out

Were you drunk?

Nobody thought to ask me to check my bag or railcard - where my ticket was with, alongside a wad of other tickets I have purchased in the past.

Would that not just be common sense on your part to check?

Surely you aren't offering an excuse for not having a ticket as "the guard never told me to check everywhere"?

 

[jon0844]

Surely one of the five suggested looking in a pocket/bag if the OP was so insistent that he had a ticket?

 

[bb21]

The story has not changed - I have been under the impression that the way they treat you is not relevant. I have conversed with my friend.
There were 4/5 people by the end of it all at excess fares standing over me telling me this, and telling me that.
Perhaps it is not quite clear to you how stressful the situation was.
They didn't say I cannot check my bag: it wasn't suggested to me at any point to look for it. The crux of the situation was that I was guilty and that was that. Trying to reason with all of them at once did not work - they didn't want to listen to me. I was on the constant defence with them, tired, and sobering up.

A complaint HAS been made. My new ticket did not get 'mixed up'.
And as a previous post said, it is not uncommon for people to have loads of old tickets. I do not see why that is relevant.

Consider it a lesson learnt unfortunately. Just because you were not your normal self after spending a night out in town sadly is not an acceptable excuse for not producing a valid ticket at the time of request. I always have a load of tickets in my railcard wallet and sometimes they do get mixed up, but I can always find the required one without too much hassle, because it is one of the priorities to have your ticket and I know the consequences of not being able to produce it when required. I treat the matter seriously. If you pockets are littered with old used tickets then maybe this serves as a reminder for you to be better organised.

As an example, I got on my local bus this morning to get to work and couldn't find my annual pass, so I had to pay for a new ticket. I then sat down at the seat and found it in my bag two minutes later. Do I now ask the driver to refund my fare? No as it can no longer be done. Do I go grovelling at the driver for my £2.10 back? No I don't as I understand that it is my mistake that I couldn't shown him my pass upon entering the bus. Same principles apply.

You'll be surprised how many times I have seen guards say to the passenger who claimed to have a valid ticket that if they could find it before disembarking then they will refund the extra ticket they were sold. Only once did I see the passenger finding it at the end. You can't blame the railway for being cynical. It is not a presumption of guilt, but it is a requirement that you keep hold of your ticket for the whole journey so the onus is on you to prove that you did indeed have a valid ticket when travelling. A receipt, for the reasons others have mentioned, is not sufficient.

I'm sorry that it is not what you want to hear, but consider it a lesson learned. I'm sure you'll be better organised next time out in London.

Good luck with your complaint / appeal. I'm afraid that you're gonna need it.

 

[missinggun]

Surely one of the five suggested looking in a pocket/bag if the OP was so insistent that he had a ticket?

No. Because from the word go we were accused. Even my friend's valid ticket was not valid until he insisted it was.

It's interesting because upon displaying a ticket a few weeks the inspector at first said it was not valid until I showed him that it was by pointing out the date.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In any case, I'll update you all on the expected result when it comes in.

Thanks for the help.

 

[bb21]

No. Because from the word go we were accused. Even my friend's valid ticket was not valid until he insisted it was.

He needs to complain about this. If true, it is appalling

 

[Clive D J]

Photo copy all of your original tickets and documents. Send the copies to the train operator or either ask at the station for a comments form for the train company involved. If none are available write a letter to the train company head office and explain the situation and submit the copies and ask for a refund of the penalty fare. That should cover you.

 

[jon0844]

Wouldn't you need to send the original tickets to prove they hadn't been used?

Keep a copy/photo of them by all means, and send recorded, but copies wouldn't be enough for an appeal to succeed would it?

 

[djw1981]

Better than photocopying fror yourself is a scan copy and send your letter recorded but also email letter and scan copyt of tickets to customer services - most email systems will auto acknowledge.

 

[bb21]

Wouldn't you need to send the original tickets to prove they hadn't been used?

Keep a copy/photo of them by all means, and send recorded, but copies wouldn't be enough for an appeal to succeed would it?

Many a time I have managed to get away with claiming with photocopies, while indicating that the originals woudl be available should it be required. Not once was I, so far, asked for the original

 

[missinggun]

Wouldn't you need to send the original tickets to prove they hadn't been used?

Keep a copy/photo of them by all means, and send recorded, but copies wouldn't be enough for an appeal to succeed would it?

To be honest, I have severe reservations about sending any of the originals to them. I don't trust them now.

They're more than welcome to identify if it has been used in my presence though. Or do they have to be sent away for this to be verified?

Oh, and if someone has any experience as to when appealing has actually worked, I'm very curious to hear under what circumstances they are successful. So far it seems an appeal is only successful if the person issuing it makes a mistake on the form.

 

[Flamingo]

The originals may be needed to swipe the magnetic strip to see if they are the originals, and if they have passed through a barrier. Ten minutes, a scanner and photoshop and I could knock up a photocopy that would pass as a copy of a £900 First Class all Lines rover.

The thing to remember about your appeal is that you are asking them to use discretion to waive the PF in this case as you had purchased a ticket but mislaid it, NOT arguing that the PF was incorrectly issued - it was correct to issue a PF if you were unable to produce a ticket, the reason you were unable to produce the ticket is immaterial.

 

[missinggun]

The originals may be needed to swipe the magnetic strip to see if they are the originals, and if they have passed through a barrier. Ten minutes, a scanner and photoshop and I could knock up a photocopy that would pass as a copy of a £900 First Class all Lines rover.

The thing to remember about your appeal is that you are asking them to use discretion to waive the PF in this case as you had purchased a ticket but mislaid it, NOT arguing that the PF was incorrectly issued - it was correct to issue a PF if you were unable to produce a ticket, the reason you were unable to produce the ticket is immaterial.

A barrier? Or which barriers?
I cannot recall if the barriers were up at Paddington.

 

[Flamingo]

If the ticket had been used for a different journey, that would be shown if it had been used in barriers..

 

[jon0844]

When did this happen? An incident as serious as this (from the picture you've painted) and you can't remember key details?

Were you drunk? Could this have played a part in the way you treated the revenue staff (as against the other way around) and your judgement - as well as the ability to know what you were doing?

 

[Flamingo]

The other point about keeping the original is that you are appealing to say "Look, I had a valid ticket after all". If you don't send in the original, there is nothing to stop you using it for another journey if they cancel the PF.

The more I think about this one, the more I think your best option would be to take it on the chin, pay the PF within the timescale, and use the "unused" ticket for another journey.

The bottom line is, the RPI was correct to issue you a PF, as you were unable to show a ticket. Treat it as a learning experience, pay and move on.

 

[missinggun]

The other point about keeping the original is that you are appealing to say "Look, I had a valid ticket after all". If you don't send in the original, there is nothing to stop you using it for another journey if they cancel the PF.

The more I think about this one, the more I think your best option would be to take it on the chin, pay the PF within the timescale, and use the "unused" ticket for another journey.

The bottom line is, the RPI was correct to issue you a PF, as you were unable to show a ticket. Treat it as a learning experience, pay and move on.

It has been paid for because upon making an official complaint about the treatment my friend and I received, they said it had to be paid for before you are able to appeal against it. Someone has since said this is not accurate.

In the simplest form: the PF was issued correctly. It's the surrounding context that obscures its accuracy for me. I would be more than willing to send them the ticket or even take it to the station provided they refund the PF.

Believe me, I really don't have much desire to get on another train after this.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, if it's been paid, then you won't end up in court.

If you are complaining about the treatment, then as none of us on here were there (I assume), I can't really help there. But in view of your first post, it smacks a bit of sour grapes that your attitude (refusing to give them your name, making them wait until you rang your mum (at 6am) etc.) didn't work.

As regards you not travelling by train again, well, that's sad. The bus takes 1 hr 20 minutes each way, from Victoria, to Caldicot terminus. They won't let you on until they see your ticket, so this problem won't arise.

 

[jon0844]

Believe me, I really don't have much desire to get on another train after this.

Ever heard about cutting off your nose to spite your face? Why, seriously, would you never want to travel again? I don't think you mean that one bit.

You had a ticket, couldn't find it, got a PF, paid it and that's it - the way it is supposed to work. Now you are going to appeal and see if they let you off as a goodwill gesture - but if they don't, don't take it personally as you did fail to produce the ticket. Nobody knew, but yourself, that you had one.

It seems that you refused to cooperate, possibly gave them a fair bit of grief (which was possible reciprocated) - no doubt due to being under the influence - so I'd be inclined to just forget about it and wait to see the outcome of the appeal. If you win, consider it a bonus based on a previous good record (or, more accurately, no previous record). Some TOCs may be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt on the first complaint/appeal when it would be hard, or impossible, to accurately conclude innocence or guilt.

Mind you, if they do investigate further they might speak to the RPI(s) concerned to get their side of the story and if there was any arguing on the train, they may stick to the rules rigidly.

I see no reason to say that you'd never travel again because of a mistake you made. I doubt the staff will hold a grudge, or even remember who you are to be honest.

At the end of the day, this incident is nothing special and not worth being remembered by the rail staff. They issue PFs all the time. Maybe they think you were trying it on, but they issued a PF and you paid so it's over.

 

[missinggun]

Ever heard about cutting off your nose to spite your face? Why, seriously, would you never want to travel again? I don't think you mean that one bit.

You had a ticket, couldn't find it, got a PF, paid it and that's it - the way it is supposed to work. Now you are going to appeal and see if they let you off as a goodwill gesture - but if they don't, don't take it personally as you did fail to produce the ticket. Nobody knew, but yourself, that you had one.

It seems that you refused to cooperate, possibly gave them a fair bit of grief (which was possible reciprocated) - no doubt due to being under the influence - so I'd be inclined to just forget about it and wait to see the outcome of the appeal. If you win, consider it a bonus based on a previous good record (or, more accurately, no previous record). Some TOCs may be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt on the first complaint/appeal when it would be hard, or impossible, to accurately conclude innocence or guilt.

Mind you, if they do investigate further they might speak to the RPI(s) concerned to get their side of the story and if there was any arguing on the train, they may stick to the rules rigidly.

I see no reason to say that you'd never travel again because of a mistake you made. I doubt the staff will hold a grudge, or even remember who you are to be honest.

At the end of the day, this incident is nothing special and not worth being remembered by the rail staff. They issue PFs all the time. Maybe they think you were trying it on, but they issued a PF and you paid so it's over.

Yes, I'm familiar with that phrase. I meant with respect to their assumption I would use the ticket I had on that day within the next 3 weeks.

 

[island]

A barrier? Or which barriers?
I cannot recall if the barriers were up at Paddington.

I believe, but may be mistaken, that the information encoded on the magnetic stripe includes the time, date, and NLC where the ticket was last used in a barrier.

 

[missinggun]

I believe, but may be mistaken, that the information encoded on the magnetic stripe includes the time, date, and NLC where the ticket was last used in a barrier.

Well hopefully that is true then.

 

[yorkie]

My suggestion is:

- You pay the Penalty Fare. The chances of getting out of it are slim, you should have checked your pockets etc. really. You will be wasting your time with an appeal I think. I am not aware of anyone having a successful appeal in the specific circumstances you describe, although it is possible. But not worth the hassle I think, for a very slim chance.

- The person who was accused of being invalid writes a letter (polite but assertive) complaining about the guard making such an accusation.

The two issues are really separate.

 

[missinggun]

My suggestion is:

- You pay the Penalty Fare. The chances of getting out of it are slim, you should have checked your pockets etc. really. You will be wasting your time with an appeal I think. I am not aware of anyone having a successful appeal in the specific circumstances you describe, although it is possible. But not worth the hassle I think, for a very slim chance.

- The person who was accused of being invalid writes a letter (polite but assertive) complaining about the guard making such an accusation.

The two issues are really separate.

What I find fascinating about the 'two issues being separate' argument is that they occurred in succession by the same people. It was the staff's demeanor and behaviour towards the both of us. The only difference being that I reacted to the stress differently, and as you may be aware, being placed under stress does in fact hinder your cognitive abilities; particularly that of memory.

 

[jon0844]

Were either, or both, of you drunk - or at least seriously hungover?

I am not sure how you forget you have a ticket, or where it is, when put under the 'stress' of being asked to produce it. That is unless you really weren't with it, in which case I am not sure you could fully remember what happened afterwards (like whether you later put the ticket you found through the barrier).