Another fantastic day with Avanti

[Confused52]

On 14th Dec Rail Advent published that ASLEF were balloting for strike action over the imposition on new Driver Rosters at Euston. In the mean time I observe that many cancellations occurred, at the start of the days following, of trains originating from Euston. It almost looks as if the Drivers are working to the old rosters and the trains aren't. What I find odd is that there are no comments about what is causing this behaviour, as there wasn't when a known mismatch between roster and timetables was causing severe problem on the central and Western parts of Northern. Instead there is just an assumption that Avanti are incompetent. What is really going on?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Avanti Voyagers/805s also work the Shrewsbury service (and possibly one of the Blackpools), which is a complication.
805s will also be serviced by Alstom/Hitachi at Oxley - another complication.
There is a Birmingham-Crewe-Holyhead service in the present mix, partly for fleet maintenance reasons.

Handing the service group to TfW would also put another TOC at Euston, not just VT/LM/LO/CS.
Chester/North Wales is not due to be serviced by HS2, so we can expect Avanti to show even less interest in it after that.
I suspect under TfW there would be fewer trains on the coast overall, as some services are near-duplicates at the moment.
No need for a 5-car MK4/197 when there is a 5-car 805 just behind...

I expect Avanti planned to use 805s like they used 221s in the past, for times when the wires are off on the WCML.
Would TfW fancy learning Stafford-Euston (they already know Crewe-Stafford) with all its alternative routes, and running at 125mph on electric (it's a diesel TOC at the moment)?
Also driver open/close, full restaurant/shop, running peak services at WCML places like Stafford and Rugby, doubling up at Crewe etc, etc.
I don't know how BR crewed the through services in the past (latterly HSTs), but in the distant past there were non-stop Euston-Chester services on the Irish Mail trains.

Although it seems a bit hairbrained, it is one way of penalising Avanti for poor service.
Though TfW is not perfect either.
Being run from Cardiff won't help: many Welsh folk, and WG itself, are inclined to think of TfW as "their" TOC and shouldn't be running "English" services.
There are/were clauses in the TfW franchise agreement about operating "English" services, and these would need a major expansion.
There's also WMT or whatever the West Midlands franchise turns into, who equally could also run 805s to Shrewsbury/Chester/North Wales.
I guess all this is speculation.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Used to be lots of reasonably priced upgrades to 1st on Seatfrog on late evening trains EUS- WBQ. I regularly paid only £14-£16 and it was sometimes as low as £12. Even at £20 it was justifiable - some reasonable food, 1st class lounge access, lots of Uglies and crisps and 2 or 3 glasses of white wine! Now the minimum upgrade price is £35 which is far too expensive, and with the refurbed standard carriages with power points at each seat - £35 represents very poor value for money

I've just bid on the 19:13 Euston to Manchester on Friday 13th of Jan (work are covering the Standard Class fare)
What can I expect in the way of food on this train if it runs? It's just on the cusp of peak/off-peak.

 

[frodshamfella]

The Avanti service from & to Liverpool has been decimated so far today.... nothing new !

To London 0604, 0843, 1043, 1343 & 1443 all cancelled

From London 0636, 0843, 0943, 1143, 1243 all cancelled. 1907 & 2200 both terminating at Crewe.

unbelievable .....Shouldnt the state be taking this over by now, like they did on the East Coast Line

 

[gabrielhj07]

unbelievable .....Shouldnt the state be taking this over by now, like they did on the East Coast Line

LNER at the moment is not exactly a beacon of reliability.

 

[frodshamfella]

LNER at the moment is not exactly a beacon of reliability.

I wouldnt know, but the WCML is off the scale

 

[gabrielhj07]

I wouldnt know, but the WCML is off the scale

Agreed. I'm sure the OLR would love to get it's fingernails dirty with the WCML, but it's doubtful whether it has the resources to run so many operations.

 

[390136]

unbelievable .....Shouldnt the state be taking this over by now, like they did on the East Coast Line

Would make no difference. Morale is low mostly due to industrial action. People are refusing to work overtime which has led to this.

The only thing that’ll improve this situation is a settlement

 

[Huntergreed]

1852 Edinburgh to Euston terminating at Preston how will the passengers get from Preston to Wigan Warrington Crewe Birmingham & London?

The only other southbound after that would be the 20:06 Glasgow - Crewe, which has also been cancelled!

If passengers can get across to Glasgow, they may make the 18:40 southbound departure. If not, taxi or hotel, at Avanti’s expense of course.

This even makes Avanti’s pre-December timetable look very reliable!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

unbelievable .....Shouldnt the state be taking this over by now, like they did on the East Coast Line

The same cancellations would apply, at least until more drivers are trained.
And LNER is also in the same dispute with the unions.

 

[D1537]

The only other southbound after that would be the 20:06 Glasgow - Crewe, which has also been cancelled!

If passengers can get across to Glasgow, they may make the 18:40 southbound departure. If not, taxi or hotel, at Avanti’s expense of course.

I like your optimism.

 

[Merseysider]

I've just bid on the 19:13 Euston to Manchester on Friday 13th of Jan (work are covering the Standard Class fare)
What can I expect in the way of food on this train if it runs? It's just on the cusp of peak/off-peak.

If the train runs (it’s been cancelled today, and was on Monday too...) then there’s still a fair chance of no food/drink due to staff shortages. Good luck clawing some of the money back from the omnishambles known as Avanti.

Probably better off buying some beer and food for the journey and sitting in Standard Premium.

They only seem to collect the upgrade about half the time anyway.

That said, the odd few times Avanti have managed to run it recently, it’s arrived half an hour late, without fail, so you’ll probably get some delay repay

 

[Rheoman]

On 14th Dec Rail Advent published that ASLEF were balloting for strike action over the imposition on new Driver Rosters at Euston. In the mean time I observe that many cancellations occurred, at the start of the days following, of trains originating from Euston. It almost looks as if the Drivers are working to the old rosters and the trains aren't. What I find odd is that there are no comments about what is causing this behaviour, as there wasn't when a known mismatch between roster and timetables was causing severe problem on the central and Western parts of Northern. Instead there is just an assumption that Avanti are incompetent. What is really going on

The rosters were agreed at the very last minute so this week’s disruption is not down to the drivers. It is purely Avanti’s fault : trying to run an increased service as opposed to pre Dec 11 without anything like the 100 extra drivers promised.
This time of year is always bad for trying to cover services anyway with people on leave, plus the majority of drivers are choosing to have quality time at home instead of working their rest days which would have alleviated this week’s chronic cancellations…

 

[43066]

The rosters were agreed at the very last minute so this week’s disruption is not down to the drivers.

Was this dispute-within-a-dispute to do with rostering agreements actually being changed, or just lots and lots of rostering “mistakes” being put through by the company in the hopes people wouldn’t notice or wouldn’t complain?

 

[Rheoman]

Was this dispute-within-a-dispute to do with rostering agreements actually being changed, or just lots and lots of rostering “mistakes” being put through by the company in the hopes people wouldn’t notice or wouldn’t complain?

The threat to ballot came about after the company said it was going to impose rosters that were fundamentally different to what we are working now.
The rosters produced by the union reps were fully compliant but the Avanti rosters were not with vastly increased weekend working just one of the bugbears.
I wouldn’t have accepted the roster even if it had been offered as part of a DRI package yet alone for nothing in this present climate.

 

[43066]

The threat to ballot came about after the company said it was going to impose rosters that were fundamentally different to what we are working now.
The rosters produced by the union reps were fully compliant but the Avanti rosters were not with vastly increased weekend working just one of the bugbears.
I wouldn’t have accepted the roster even if it had been offered as part of a DRI package yet alone for nothing in this present climate.

I make you 100% right!

TOCs cannot be allowed to get away with tearing up mutual agreements at the drop of a hat, to cover up for their own failings, just because the going has got tough. That’s the time agreements are most needed! What kind of precedent would that set?

No doubt if they’d approached the union in the proper way, with more notice, something could potentially have been agreed, and the needless disruption avoided.

Above all it sounds like they just need to start being more honest with passengers about the timetable they can actually deliver with the resources they actually have.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I feel like Avanti are worried about losing the WCML, they said things would get better at timetable change and, well we know how that went.
Maybe they hope they can bluff their way into existence, we'll see in the coming months if things get better or Avanti are out (although it is somewhat worth mentioning people's thoughts on how could another operator do any better).

 

[Bald Rick]

The rosters were agreed at the very last minute so this week’s disruption is not down to the drivers. It is purely Avanti’s fault :

The rosters at Euston were not agreed. At 6 of the 8 depots they were agreed, and mostly some weeks ago. These depots seem to think the rosters were compliant. Given that they were all done by the same people, it seems odd that they weren‘t compliant only at Euston. It takes two parties to agree, so how is the non agreement purely Avanti’s fault? What other factors are in play at Euston?

trying to run an increased service as opposed to pre Dec 11 without anything like the 100 extra drivers promised.

but there are (very nearly) an extra 100 competent drivers across the whole of Avanti compared to August. Why do you say there aren’t?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

The rosters produced by the union reps were fully compliant but the Avanti rosters were not with vastly increased weekend working just one of the bugbears.

How can there be ‘vastly increased‘ weekend working, when the base service is lower than what it was Pre Covid ?

 

[Efini92]

The rosters at Euston were not agreed. At 6 of the 8 depots they were agreed, and mostly some weeks ago. These depots seem to think the rosters were compliant. Given that they were all done by the same people, it seems odd that they weren‘t compliant only at Euston. It takes two parties to agree, so how is the non agreement purely Avanti’s fault? What other factors are in play at Euston?

There was a bit more to it than that. The 4 that agreed them had them altered by the local reps.
The 4 day rosters that were done by the same person were awful.

 

[185]

Rugby Station was notably shut from 2145 Thursday. Anything stopping was just for crew changes, passengers had to be locked on.

From incidents at Rochdale (FNW, 2002, passengers on the line) to Stalybridge (FTPE 2005, 11 &14, again on the line) now to Oxenholme, Macc and Rugby... (Avanti) FirstGroup have truly excelled in secure stations. So secure they're shut.

 

[Rheoman]

The rosters at Euston were not agreed. At 6 of the 8 depots they were agreed, and mostly some weeks ago. These depots seem to think the rosters were compliant. Given that they were all done by the same people, it seems odd that they weren‘t compliant only at Euston. It takes two parties to agree, so how is the non agreement purely Avanti’s fault? What other factors are in play at Euston?




but there are (very nearly) an extra 100 competent drivers across the whole of Avanti compared to August. Why do you say there aren’t?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==



How can there be ‘vastly increased‘ weekend working, when the base service is lower than what it was Pre Covid ?

So how come we had an email late last Saturday saying that the roster proposed by our LLC had been accepted after a few tweaks?

The 100 extra drivers being mentioned are probably those coming back from long term sick and other issues associated with COVID- I have yet to see an influx of brand new productive drivers on our roster. They’ll probably need another 100 anyway because so many people are either thinking of retiring early or transferring to another company such is the rock bottom morale at Avanti.

Vastly increased weekend working: I could have phrased that better. What I meant was our Saturday turns in particular had increased significantly with instances of 8 Saturdays and 7 Sundays being worked in a 9 week period in the company proposed rosters.

 

[dk1]

Not the best of mornings to be travelling south from Scotland on the WCML

06:30 Glasgow-Euston is cancelled
06:52 Edinburgh-Euston starts Preston
07:36 Glasgow-Euston is Cancelled
08:00 Glasgow-Euston starts Preston

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

Oh & don’t think of catching the direct east coast service instead. The 06:48 Glasgow-Kings Cross starts Newcastle today.

 

[duncanp]

And the 07:07 from "Birmingham to Glasgow" is only running between, er, Wolverhampton and Preston.

07:07 Birmingham New Street to Glasgow Central due 11:16 will be started from Wolverhampton and terminated at Preston.
It will no longer call at Birmingham New Street, Lancaster, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle and Glasgow Central.
This is due to a shortage of train crew

I hate to think what it will be like tomorrow, with services affected by staff shortages and the strike.

If the last service on Christmas Eve is cancelled or terminated short, then people will be stranded, and it will be difficult and/or expensive to make alternative arrangements.

 

[frodshamfella]

Would make no difference. Morale is low mostly due to industrial action. People are refusing to work overtime which has led to this.

The only thing that’ll improve this situation is a settlement

I find it bizarre that the Sunday service is reliant on staff saying they will do overtime, at least as I understand it for at least some operators.

 

[dk1]

I find it bizarre that the Sunday service is reliant on staff saying they will do overtime, at least as I understand it for at least some operators.

Been like that for many years at some operators. I see no sign of that changing anytime soon.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Rugby Station was notably shut from 2145 Thursday. Anything stopping was just for crew changes, passengers had to be locked on.

From incidents at Rochdale (FNW, 2002, passengers on the line) to Stalybridge (FTPE 2005, 11 &14, again on the line) now to Oxenholme, Macc and Rugby... (Avanti) FirstGroup have truly excelled in secure stations. So secure they're shut.

(In relation to the Rugby incident) Presumably because of the overtime ban?

 

[irish_rail]

The rosters at Euston were not agreed. At 6 of the 8 depots they were agreed, and mostly some weeks ago. These depots seem to think the rosters were compliant. Given that they were all done by the same people, it seems odd that they weren‘t compliant only at Euston. It takes two parties to agree, so how is the non agreement purely Avanti’s fault? What other factors are in play at Euston?




but there are (very nearly) an extra 100 competent drivers across the whole of Avanti compared to August. Why do you say there aren’t?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==



How can there be ‘vastly increased‘ weekend working, when the base service is lower than what it was Pre Covid ?

Just for a bit of context here, rosters not being agreed in time for timetable changes is pretty common, indeed they are RARELY agreed at Plymouth on GWR in time and there is usually a period of emergency rostering until little niggles are resolved. These can be for a number of reasons , and it is the union LDC reps who will "throw the new diagrams out" if they see fit.

 

[Parallel]

Avanti have not long ago opened a drivers’ depot in Holyhead, with guards already being based there, and I’m not sure TfW would be able to take on all those traincrew. A few posters have suggested simply splitting at Crewe with no ambition to run through services. In the medium term I think this would be best, as it would insulate the coast services from wider disruption.

I was in Chester a few weeks ago and the bulk of Avanti services were running between Holyhead and Crewe only, and they couldn’t even manage that. Their trains were leaving Holyhead about 50 minutes late or being cancelled with no reason for the delays quoted on JourneyCheck or at the station. The advertised morning through train (a 10 coach fully loaded voyager) was terminating early due to a shortage of train crew. I don’t see how Avanti are allowed to make any money in its current state.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I was in Chester a few weeks ago and the bulk of Avanti services were running between Holyhead and Crewe only, and they couldn’t even manage that. Their trains were leaving Holyhead about 50 minutes late or being cancelled with no reason for the delays quoted on JourneyCheck or at the station. The advertised morning through train (a 10 coach fully loaded voyager) was also advertised as terminating early due to a shortage of train crew. I don’t see how Avanti are allowed to make any money in its current state.

Because they get a base management fee for 'running' the show whatever happens.

 

[Clarence Yard]

And the “performance” fee on top doesn’t solely rate to train performance - in fact train performance is very much in the minority.

I understand that the full time union official has intervened in the case of the two drivers depots that have not agreed the new rosters and, subject to tweaks, the new rosters should be live in early January.