Stagecoach Group (Group-wide matters)

[JD2168]

Is there any further information about when the Electric buses will arrive/enter service at Rawmarsh depot on 22x & 221 routes?

 

[Snow1964]

Sheffield needs newer stock with the Clean Air Zone starting early in 2022 so needs Euro 6 minimum.

I think Sheffield’s clean air zone is delayed until early 2023

I was wondering why Torquay was getting some, but seems it still has a few 2005 Trident ALX400s (including a handful of branded part open ones), so maybe replacing these. It’s next oldest double decks are a batch of 2010 Oxford cast offs. However it does have some 15+ year old single decks which makes me wonder what Stagecoach are thinking regarding replacing old single decks.

Then it occurred to me if the recent ideas of handing back tendered routes (as has happened in Gloucestershire) because they are less profitable, so best to cut when have a staff shortage, will lead to a cascade of single deck buses, hence no new ones ordered. This suggests Stagecoach are moving to a smaller overall fleet, with more selected profitable routes. (I’m aware there are some new Volvo -MCV Evora single decks for Scottish Isles, but these are fairly niche)

 

[Surreyman]

I think Sheffield’s clean air zone is delayed until early 2023

I was wondering why Torquay was getting some, but seems it still has a few 2005 Trident ALX400s (including a handful of branded part open ones), so maybe replacing these. It’s next oldest double decks are a batch of 2010 Oxford cast offs. However it does have some 15+ year old single decks which makes me wonder what Stagecoach are thinking regarding replacing old single decks.

Then it occurred to me if the recent ideas of handing back tendered routes (as has happened in Gloucestershire) because they are less profitable, so best to cut when have a staff shortage, will lead to a cascade of single deck buses, hence no new ones ordered. This suggests Stagecoach are moving to a smaller overall fleet, with more selected profitable routes. (I’m aware there are some new Volvo -MCV Evora single decks for Scottish Isles, but these are fairly niche)

The delivery of Electric vehicles to the Scottish fleets will result in some more cascades of 'mid-life' single deckers to south of the border.
The overall UK bus fleet is certain to shrink in the next 18 months due to spending cuts/post covid demand changes/staff issues.
There is also a trickle of ex - London vehicles, which though they may be mechanically 'hammered' & have centre doors etc, are all now Euro 6 compliant and provide a cheap solution for some operators i.e First have just acquired some for operations in Essex.

 

[RELL6L]

Regarding the Stagecoach East new service MK1, Stagecoach East twitter says:

#Bedford MK1 . We understand that there are some issues with the new MK1 service . We are working on this matter of utmost urgency to resolve the problems.

That is an understatement! I don't think that, since the service began, a single bus has made it to Bedford, at least before the late evening, within an hour of its due time.
The first bus is due in at 8.40, it's normally arrived about 10.00. There are complaints on the Stagecoach East twitter.

Some have been much later than that. On Monday the 12.35 from Milton Keynes to Luton and Bedford, due to arrive in Bedford at 14.40, actually made it at about 17.00. The 16.35 from Milton Keynes, due in Bedford at 18.40, arrived at 20.56.

Given that the round trip from leaving Bedford to arriving back is 4hrs 25 minutes this horrendous late running has clearly given rise to issues with driving time. On Monday the 9.35 and 12.35 from Milton Keynes spent about half an hour at Luton Airport, presumably for a driver break. The 8.35 from Milton Keynes today has done the same thing. Interestingly on Monday the 16.35 from Milton Keynes (10878) also stopped for half an hour, but at a seemingly random stop in North Luton. This could have been a mechanical reason but more likely because it was 19.30 and the bus had left Bedford at 14.15

Clearly the times are not achievable and combining the 81 and 99 with a long diversion to and from Luton Airport, plus time on the M1 through roadworks, has made it all worse. The MK to Luton section is a long way from base and much more convenient for other operators to handle - eg Arriva or even Centrebus, then Stagecoach can stick to their established Luton to Bedford route up the A6 if they haven't completely ruined it.

 

[markymark2000]

Regarding the Stagecoach East new service MK1, Stagecoach East twitter says:

#Bedford MK1 . We understand that there are some issues with the new MK1 service . We are working on this matter of utmost urgency to resolve the problems.

That is an understatement! I don't think that, since the service began, a single bus has made it to Bedford, at least before the late evening, within an hour of its due time.
The first bus is due in at 8.40, it's normally arrived about 10.00. There are complaints on the Stagecoach East twitter.

Some have been much later than that. On Monday the 12.35 from Milton Keynes to Luton and Bedford, due to arrive in Bedford at 14.40, actually made it at about 17.00. The 16.35 from Milton Keynes, due in Bedford at 18.40, arrived at 20.56.

Given that the round trip from leaving Bedford to arriving back is 4hrs 25 minutes this horrendous late running has clearly given rise to issues with driving time. On Monday the 9.35 and 12.35 from Milton Keynes spent about half an hour at Luton Airport, presumably for a driver break. The 8.35 from Milton Keynes today has done the same thing. Interestingly on Monday the 16.35 from Milton Keynes (10878) also stopped for half an hour, but at a seemingly random stop in North Luton. This could have been a mechanical reason but more likely because it was 19.30 and the bus had left Bedford at 14.15

Clearly the times are not achievable and combining the 81 and 99 with a long diversion to and from Luton Airport, plus time on the M1 through roadworks, has made it all worse. The MK to Luton section is a long way from base and much more convenient for other operators to handle - eg Arriva or even Centrebus, then Stagecoach can stick to their established Luton to Bedford route up the A6 if they haven't completely ruined it.

The main issue that I see with the new service is that I think someone timed and planned the route as going direct from the Airport to MK Amazon (as the timings seem decent to do this). This isn't possible though on domestic hours, they have to have a stop between and so they picked the stop on Dunstable Road near the Travelodge (which I believe the 99 stopped at). Ok you may say, that sounds fair. But that time wasn't taken into account and I doubt that if it was planned, it was planned with the intention that the drivers would serve Luton Station both before and after the airport (in both directions). Serving this stop, plodding through Luton and running via Luton Station (As per what is currently happening) is taking at least 15 minutes extra each way which is currently seemingly unaccounted for.

Other factors that I think arent helping are that first trips of the day aren't even leaving on time. If these don't run on time, the rest of the day will be a knock on effect and that of course doesn't help. Is this Bedford drivers not being given enough time to complete the dead run from the depot to the bus station or is it lazy drivers who have no intention of being on time in the morning (As I know my local depot has that issue. Rather sit in the depot faffing than get their backside to the bus station to start their service on time).
Milton Keynes Station to The Point, 2 minutes is pure fantasy. Someone dropped one planning that. I think a helicopter would struggle to do that, let alone a bus.
Also did Wixams B&M always get served on the 81? I can't seem to find it previously but now this is between 2 and 3 minutes on every trip and seems a bit useless. B&M work on shifts as far as I know and so sending every single bus there seems excessive and time which could be easily clawed back. It isn't much in the grand scheme of the lateness but 2-3 minutes is 2-3 minutes and on a long journey, people want to get where they are going, not double running to a warehouse.

 

[RELL6L]

The main issue that I see with the new service is that I think someone timed and planned the route as going direct from the Airport to MK Amazon (as the timings seem decent to do this). This isn't possible though on domestic hours, they have to have a stop between and so they picked the stop on Dunstable Road near the Travelodge (which I believe the 99 stopped at). Ok you may say, that sounds fair. But that time wasn't taken into account and I doubt that if it was planned, it was planned with the intention that the drivers would serve Luton Station both before and after the airport (in both directions). Serving this stop, plodding through Luton and running via Luton Station (As per what is currently happening) is taking at least 15 minutes extra each way which is currently seemingly unaccounted for.

Other factors that I think arent helping are that first trips of the day aren't even leaving on time. If these don't run on time, the rest of the day will be a knock on effect and that of course doesn't help. Is this Bedford drivers not being given enough time to complete the dead run from the depot to the bus station or is it lazy drivers who have no intention of being on time in the morning (As I know my local depot has that issue. Rather sit in the depot faffing than get their backside to the bus station to start their service on time).
Milton Keynes Station to The Point, 2 minutes is pure fantasy. Someone dropped one planning that. I think a helicopter would struggle to do that, let alone a bus.
Also did Wixams B&M always get served on the 81? I can't seem to find it previously but now this is between 2 and 3 minutes on every trip and seems a bit useless. B&M work on shifts as far as I know and so sending every single bus there seems excessive and time which could be easily clawed back. It isn't much in the grand scheme of the lateness but 2-3 minutes is 2-3 minutes and on a long journey, people want to get where they are going, not double running to a warehouse.

I wondered about the purpose of the stop on the Dunstable Road - if it wasn't for that the buses could go straight to the airport via junction 10 avoiding central Luton altogether on the MK-Luton Airport leg. maybe not always faster that way but probably generally, with no stop drivers could be fed traffic information to decide which option. But, as you say, that leaves too big a gap between stops.

The whole service seems slower, maybe the traffic is particularly bad and maybe there are roadworks, but both within Milton Keynes and Luton the times seem very difficult to achieve.

To be fair, although there should only be five buses with 35 minutes turnround at Bedford, Stagecoach seem to have made sure that most runs from Bedford do start roughly on time. I have seen up to 8 buses out at a time.

All information from BusTimes by the way - usual caveats apply - but I think its pretty accurate. Just ignore the time shown on arrival at Bedford Bus Station as that may be well after the actual arrival, I have always used the previous timing shown.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Disappointingly none of this order seems to be earmarked for any of the Scottish operations. Stagecoach were normally quite good for delivering some new buses to its Scottish areas every year if possible.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Disappointingly none of this order seems to be earmarked for any of the Scottish operations. Stagecoach were normally quite good for delivering some new buses to its Scottish areas every year if possible.

Might this be because Scotland is getting a number of electric buses, as mentioned in this post?

 

[LUYMun]

Stagecoach passengers set to benefit from UK's largest bus order during 2022

https://www.stagecoachgroup.com/media/news-releases/2022/2022-11-10.aspx

I'd imagine a whole load of the South's last Tridents will get withdrawn when these arrive, then cue another period of transfers of E400s and E400MMCs.

 

[markymark2000]

I wondered about the purpose of the stop on the Dunstable Road - if it wasn't for that the buses could go straight to the airport via junction 10 avoiding central Luton altogether on the MK-Luton Airport leg. maybe not always faster that way but probably generally, with no stop drivers could be fed traffic information to decide which option. But, as you say, that leaves too big a gap between stops.

If they could get another stop near Ridgmont on the A421, that would be perfectly fine. Just need a bus stop putting there. Or serve Amazon LTN1. That would comply with domestic hours and I will say for sure that it won't cost 15 minutes extra to serve that compared to plodding through Luton and serving the train station twice.

To be fair, although there should only be five buses with 35 minutes turnround at Bedford, Stagecoach seem to have made sure that most runs from Bedford do start roughly on time. I have seen up to 8 buses out at a time.

I've only checked the morning trips where it would be the first bus out of Bedford or Milton Keynes. Today, based off bustimes tracking, buses were as follows.
05:15 from Bedford - Arrived into the bus station 10 early, left 6 late
06:15 from Bedford - Arrived into the bus station 3 early, left 4 late
06:35 from Milton Keynes - Arrived into MK 10 late and left left 13 late (The 3 mins at MK is likely picking up pax so that's excused. Bus did spent 10 mins in Bedford Bus Station though when likely it should have ran dead from the depot to MK and so take out that delay, it would have been on time).
07:15 from Bedford - Arrived into the bus station 3 late, left 9 late
08:15 from Bedford - Arrived into bus station 20 early, left on time.
09:15 from Bedford - Arrived into bus station off previous route 10 mins before departure, left 10 late.


Bar the 09:15, the buses had no other trips prior to doing the MK1 so arguebly no excuse for not leaving on time. Late start means the ongoing delays are just worse.

All information from BusTimes by the way - usual caveats apply - but I think its pretty accurate. Just ignore the time shown on arrival at Bedford Bus Station as that may be well after the actual arrival, I have always used the previous timing shown.

 

[gka472l]

Disappointingly none of this order seems to be earmarked for any of the Scottish operations. Stagecoach were normally quite good for delivering some new buses to its Scottish areas every year if possible.

Surprisingly none for the Merseyside area either, last new deliveries here were 18/68 plate 11101-11117, however the Merseytravel owned hydrogen E400's are currently in build and will be operated by both Stagecoach and Arriva on the jointly worked 10A between Liverpool & St Helens.....

 

[paulmch]

No mention of the Cambridge ZEBRA order? They were promised to arrive in the second half of 2022 - they're running out of time to stick to that and so far there hasn't been a peep out of them!

 

[Markdvdman]

Well Stagecoach promised the Merthyr - Swansea bus would be back by June latest. Not even a mantion since they are a joke company!

 

[markymark2000]

Well Stagecoach promised the Merthyr - Swansea bus would be back by June latest. Not even a mantion since they are a joke company!

It's been officially cancelled with the traffic commissioner from January 2023 so highly unlikely to return in the meantime.

 

[py_megapixel]

It is a bit odd that Stagecoach keep ordering for Manchester considering there's no guarantee they will win franchises when the scheme comes in. Presumably they think they can still make their money.

 

[Blindtraveler]

They are bound to win something and I would hazard a guess that as Manchester standard spec he is nothing special, or at least not at the moment from their point of view cascading x Manchester vehicles elsewhere would be far less logistically complicated than former London

 

[gka472l]

They are bound to win something and I would hazard a guess that as Manchester standard spec he is nothing special, or at least not at the moment from their point of view cascading x Manchester vehicles elsewhere would be far less logistically complicated than former London

There's 170 electric buses due for Stockport in 2024, although these are TfGM orders, so no guarantee that Stagecoach will operate them of course, but would see existing Stagecoach vehicles moved elsewhere.....

New look for electric Bee Network buses revealed as Greater Manchester encourages more people to use public transport - Greener Greater Manchester

Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham has revealed 50 new look electric buses in The Bee Network as TfGM launches public transport push.

greenergreatermanchester.com

HTH

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is a bit odd that Stagecoach keep ordering for Manchester considering there's no guarantee they will win franchises when the scheme comes in. Presumably they think they can still make their money.

They'll win something, and if they don't it's easy enough to move them elsewhere.

 

[sheffbus1342]

I believe that Sheffield are getting the first MMCs Manchester got.

Any idea when these might end up in Sheffield?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Any idea when these might end up in Sheffield?

No, but I'm guessing when Manchester get more buses.

 

[fgwrich]

I'd imagine a whole load of the South's last Tridents will get withdrawn when these arrive, then cue another period of transfers of E400s and E400MMCs.

Indeed, The Winchester mention is a surprise, considering they probably have the youngest fleet in the Stagecoach South operation (the small handful of 04/06 plate Tridents probably being the oldest vehicles there). A recent shuffle in the South fleet has seen some of Portsmouths E400s move up to Andover, seeing off a number of 07 plate Darts up there, presumably in anticipation of a new batch of Deckers arriving down there.

 

[LUYMun]

Indeed, The Winchester mention is a surprise, considering they probably have the youngest fleet in the Stagecoach South operation (the small handful of 04/06 plate Tridents probably being the oldest vehicles there). A recent shuffle in the South fleet has seen some of Portsmouths E400s move up to Andover, seeing off a number of 07 plate Darts up there, presumably in anticipation of a new batch of Deckers arriving down there.

I also noted that a number of Aldershot's 53- and 04-plate Tridents were moved out to take in Basingstoke's E200s/300s. Given the Surrey County Council tenders Stagecoach retained (46 and Sunday 3) now require Euro VI compliant vehicles, coupled with increased scrutiny about the Blackwater Valley's exceeding emission limits, I can see transfers of newer MMCs going to Aldershot in the near future.

 

[RELL6L]

If they could get another stop near Ridgmont on the A421, that would be perfectly fine. Just need a bus stop putting there. Or serve Amazon LTN1. That would comply with domestic hours and I will say for sure that it won't cost 15 minutes extra to serve that compared to plodding through Luton and serving the train station twice.


I've only checked the morning trips where it would be the first bus out of Bedford or Milton Keynes. Today, based off bustimes tracking, buses were as follows.
05:15 from Bedford - Arrived into the bus station 10 early, left 6 late
06:15 from Bedford - Arrived into the bus station 3 early, left 4 late
06:35 from Milton Keynes - Arrived into MK 10 late and left left 13 late (The 3 mins at MK is likely picking up pax so that's excused. Bus did spent 10 mins in Bedford Bus Station though when likely it should have ran dead from the depot to MK and so take out that delay, it would have been on time).
07:15 from Bedford - Arrived into the bus station 3 late, left 9 late
08:15 from Bedford - Arrived into bus station 20 early, left on time.
09:15 from Bedford - Arrived into bus station off previous route 10 mins before departure, left 10 late.


Bar the 09:15, the buses had no other trips prior to doing the MK1 so arguebly no excuse for not leaving on time. Late start means the ongoing delays are just worse.

The MK1 has surpassed itself today. The 08.35 from Milton Keynes, due in Bedford at 10.40, arrived at about 14.20 - over 3½ hours late. Problems on the M1 clearly - but passengers on the Luton-Bedford section ought not to be affected by this. Based on BusTimes.

Changes are being made from this weekend as it clearly this MK1 timetable has not worked. Stagecoach website says of the MK1: "Timetable will be adjusted to allow for additional journey time due to congestion." There will be significantly longer journey times and 45 minutes turn-round time at Milton Keynes, presumably an official driver's break, and it will be a 6 hour cycle instead of 5. Oddly the first arrival in Bedford is still only at 8.40, but as it leaves MK at 6.00 instead of 6.35 hopefully will be a lot more reliable. Unhelpfully in the timetable it appears you have to wait 1 hour and 3 minutes to continue your journey towards Bedford at Luton Airport - which is wrong - is this a computer which simply decides 3 minutes is not an adequate connection time? - but presumably nobody does this anyway! The journey times are the same at all hours of all days, which cannot be the same as traffic congestion, it's going to do a lot of waiting for time in the quiet periods.

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/East/BEDFORD/BE-MK1-201122.pdf

Also the changes to the 13 and 131 in Haverhill have obviously gone down like a lead balloon. Considerable improvements being made.
Two more 13 journeys have been added as of this Monday (14th) with a more significant timetable change in two weeks - the X13 returns and four buses per hour with the flow in peaks, plus the 131 becomes 131 and 131A and runs in both partly in the opposite direction round the town.

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/East/NOTICES/Enhacements%20to%20routes%2013%20and%20131.pdf

Utterly unconfirmed, but reported on another forum that Stagecoach are to take over Arriva's share of the 685 Carlisle to Newcastle from 10 December.

 

[Surreyman]

I also noted that a number of Aldershot's 53- and 04-plate Tridents were moved out to take in Basingstoke's E200s/300s. Given the Surrey County Council tenders Stagecoach retained (46 and Sunday 3) now require Euro VI compliant vehicles, coupled with increased scrutiny about the Blackwater Valley's exceeding emission limits, I can see transfers of newer MMCs going to Aldershot in the near future.

Surrey may have stated that they would like Euro 6, getting it is another matter!
Surrey County Council must have agreed to compromise when awarding the recent tenders, the 46 is certainly not operated by euro 6 vehicles.

 

[GusB]

Please make sure that any discussion in this thread relates to the Stagecoach Group as a whole. There are individual threads in which to discuss issues pertaining to specific operating companies.

 

[fgwrich]

I also noted that a number of Aldershot's 53- and 04-plate Tridents were moved out to take in Basingstoke's E200s/300s.

Yes, that certainly was something of a surprise. There was a handful of E200s which moved the other way (from Aldershot to Basingstoke) but they since seem to have been dispersed to Andover & Winchester, with at least some Basingstoke services now operated by a vehicle from Portsmouth (which comes up on the 23 / 13 and returns on it).

 

[S&CLER]

Stagecoach have just taken over the former Holmeswood routes 337/347, Ormskirk and Southport to Chorley. When I travelled yesterday on the 09:58 from Southport to Chorley, the bus carried several drivers learning the route, with a driver under instruction. She did well not to be more than 15 minutes late.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach announces first financial results under DWS ownership - CBW

Stagecoach Group, now a limited company rather than a PLC has announced its first interim results under the ownership of DWS. In the half-year to 29 October 2022, revenue grew to £669.6m, up from £579.4m [...]

cbwmagazine.com

Stagecoach Group, now a limited company rather than a PLC has announced its first interim results under the ownership of DWS. In the half-year to 29 October 2022, revenue grew to £669.6m, up from £579.4m for the previous six months, and adjusted total operating profit grew to £46.8m. The operating profit for the half-year, which includes Covid-19 grant income from the Government of £45.9m, brings the operating profit to £65.2m.

Positive cash generation in the half-year saw a £28.1m reduction in net debt, even after the increases in net debt of £34.4m arising on the acquisitions of bus operations previously operated by Kelsian Group and HCT Group in London, which added 950 employees and more than 300 buses operating 28 routes on behalf of Transport for London.

The group said it is actively managing the current inflationary environment by taking a balanced approach to protecting customers and employees from the cost of living pressures as far as possible while ensuring it maintains properly funded and sustainable bus networks, and remains positive on the long-term outlook while mindful of the immediate-term macro-economic challenges facing businesses across the country.

Martin Griffiths, Stagecoach Group Chief Executive, said: “We are pleased to report a positive set of results for the half-year ended 29 October 2022 as we move forward under new ownership. We have delivered increased revenue and profit, reflecting growth in our business and investment by the UK, Scottish and Welsh Governments in bus networks. We have made further progress as we rebuild from the pandemic, manage the immediate-term macro-economic headwinds, and position our business to maximise the opportunities for growth as we transition to a net zero future. At the same time, the current economic environment is helping to demonstrate the good value of our public transport services and encourage modal shift away from the car.

“We remain positive on the long-term outlook for the Group, while mindful of the macro-economic challenges facing businesses across the country. Underpinned by a strong financial position and with strong relationships with our national and local government partners, we are well-positioned for future growth for the benefit of our customers, employees, investors and wider stakeholders.”

 

[heathrowrail]

Stagecoach announces first financial results under DWS ownership - CBW

Stagecoach Group, now a limited company rather than a PLC has announced its first interim results under the ownership of DWS. In the half-year to 29 October 2022, revenue grew to £669.6m, up from £579.4m [...]

cbwmagazine.com

Good news for Stagecoach. Hopefully means they can continue to invest in the business although altering the awful 2020 livery would be a good start.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2022 ==

I'd imagine a whole load of the South's last Tridents will get withdrawn when these arrive, then cue another period of transfers of E400s and E400MMCs.

Tridents going yes, These are for Hop12 (if it will still be called that), the current 67 plates are then going to Exeter (rumoured) as Exeter is crying out for more decker's. My guess is this will see off some of the MX56 plate Enviros too.

 

[DunsBus]

Good news for Stagecoach. Hopefully means they can continue to invest in the business although altering the awful 2020 livery would be a good start.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2022 ==


Tridents going yes, These are for Hop12 (if it will still be called that), the current 67 plates are then going to Exeter (rumoured) as Exeter is crying out for more decker's. My guess is this will see off some of the MX56 plate Enviros too.

With Stagecoach North East soon to take over two of Arriva's three duties on the 685 from Newcastle to Carlisle, I wonder if some of Newcastle's forthcoming new deckers will be allocated to it, matching what Stagecoach North West currently provides on its share of the service.