Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Bob Price]

5Z80 just passed Crewe coming from Manchester Piccadilly with 67025 and a GC set having run up from Shrewsbury on 5Z79. Looks like the platform remedial work on the Crewe to Shrewsbury line is complete.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

5Z80 just passed Crewe coming from Manchester Piccadilly with 67025 and a GC set having run up from Shrewsbury on 5Z79. Looks like the platform remedial work on the Crewe to Shrewsbury line is complete.

Looks like it did Crewe-Shrewsbury-Manchester-Crewe via Whitchurch each way (5Z78/79/80).
The Mk4 set is shown on RTT.

Realtime Trains | 5Z78 0931 Crewe C.S. to Shrewsbury | 06/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Z78 0931 departure from Crewe C.S. to Shrewsbury on 06/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It also seems to have stopped at the main stations en route.

 

[sd0733]

All route proving has been done yesterday and today using the SDO fitted sets, 1 has run Cardiff-Swansea and the other Crewe-Shrewsbury-Manchester both days.

Does look likely that the original 2 diagrams will be the only ones running until 9th January when the Manchester diagrams are intended to start now from that date.

 

[JakeMurphy]

All route proving has been done yesterday and today using the SDO fitted sets, 1 has run Cardiff-Swansea and the other Crewe-Shrewsbury-Manchester both days.

Does look likely that the original 2 diagrams will be the only ones running until 9th January when the Manchester diagrams are intended to start now from that date.

What are the original ones again sorry? just for clarification thanks as I’m off out Monday .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2022 ==

HD05 has static converter issues at Canton and HD03 requires tyre turning at Crewe, with HD01 at Landore that only leaves HD02 as the only working set.

SDO training is suspended next week with the Canton set being used on proving runs between Cardiff and Swansea and the Crewe set between Shrewsbury and Manchester via Wem at least on Monday and Tuesday.

Any updates on HD07, HD08?

 

[sd0733]

What are the original ones again sorry? just for clarification thanks as I’m off out Monday .

5:33 Holyhead-Cardiff, 11:22 Cardiff-Holyhead, 16:36 Holyhead-Cardiff

6:45 Cardiff-Holyhead, 11:33 Hoyhead-Cardiff, 17:16 Cardiff-Holyhead

May be retimed by the odd minute but thats the gist of it!

Edit:
Now the overtime ban had been cancelled there's now a revised plan to get some Manchester diagrams up and running on 19th December.

 

[JakeMurphy]

5:33 Holyhead-Cardiff, 11:22 Cardiff-Holyhead, 16:36 Holyhead-Cardiff

6:45 Cardiff-Holyhead, 11:33 Hoyhead-Cardiff, 17:16 Cardiff-Holyhead

May be retimed by the odd minute but thats the gist of it!

Definitely, and the way this weeks been going there’s no guarantee they’ll be a MK4 either!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Definitely, and the way this weeks been going there’s no guarantee they’ll be a MK4 either!

They should be as they are ready to go, however we'll have to wait and see what happens! It will only be Monday and Thursday this week though.

 

[SEGalaxy375]

HD02 is out in service today

 

[sd0733]

Should be the last day of non-Sdo fitted sets today.

On Monday there aren't any Manchesters running, HD04 is due to start from Canton and form the 06:48 Holyhead on that diagram Finish Holyhead around 21:30 while HD06 is due to run from Crewe and start from Chester at 07:16 working to Cardiff.

Manchesters are planned to run from Dec 19th when an additional set (HD01 or 07) is planned to start, one of those 2 sets are planned to run from Landore to Crewe at some point next week (got to be Mon or Thurs) to be in place for that on the Monday.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Should be the last day of non-Sdo fitted sets today.

On Monday there aren't any Manchesters running, HD04 is due to start from Canton and form the 06:48 Holyhead on that diagram Finish Holyhead around 21:30 while HD06 is due to run from Crewe and start from Chester at 07:16 working to Cardiff.

Manchesters are planned to run from Dec 19th when an additional set (HD01 or 07) is planned to start, one of those 2 sets are planned to run from Landore to Crewe at some point next week (got to be Mon or Thurs) to be in place for that on the Monday.

Excellent news thanks for the update. Will it just be 1 diagram for now until they have enough sets ready to interwork the Holyheads?

 

[GWVillager]

May I ask for a few clarifications?

1. When the Mark 4s enter service on the Manchester run, will they be operating to all the diagrams they eventually will (apart from that one service in the evenings I recall hearing about)? Essentially the same as what @SuperLuke2334 asked above.
2. Am I correct in my understanding that First Class will initially be declassified on Manchester services?
3. Will the arrangement of ex-LNER formations remain as they currently are or will they shuffle them around as originally planned?

Thanks, and sorry to get in the way!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

May I ask for a few clarifications?

1. When the Mark 4s enter service on the Manchester run, will they be operating to all the diagrams they eventually will (apart from that one service in the evenings I recall hearing about)? Essentially the same as what @SuperLuke2334 asked above.
2. Am I correct in my understanding that First Class will initially be declassified on Manchester services?
3. Will the arrangement of ex-LNER formations remain as they currently are or will they shuffle them around as originally planned?

Thanks, and sorry to get in the way!

Q1, waiting for clarification above on initial diagrams, but it will eventually be 4 Manchester diagrams by May.
2. First Class from the start I believe.
3. I don't think so until the 5th carriage is added as even though they will now have SDO, the FC coach is still the only coach with an accessible toilet and wheelchair area until the 5th coach is added which has a standard class one. The FC coach has to therefore be platformed until that happens.

 

[craigybagel]

Q1, waiting for clarification above on initial diagrams, but it will eventually be 4 Manchester diagrams by May.
2. First Class from the start I believe.
3. I don't think so until the 5th carriage is added as even though they will now have SDO, the FC coach is still the only coach with an accessible toilet and wheelchair area until the 5th coach is added which has a standard class one. The FC coach has to therefore be platformed until that happens.

The fourth diagram (0830 & 1630 from Manchester) won't be changing until the next timetable change in May at the earliest

 

[sd0733]

May I ask for a few clarifications?

1. When the Mark 4s enter service on the Manchester run, will they be operating to all the diagrams they eventually will (apart from that one service in the evenings I recall hearing about)? Essentially the same as what @SuperLuke2334 asked above.
2. Am I correct in my understanding that First Class will initially be declassified on Manchester services?
3. Will the arrangement of ex-LNER formations remain as they currently are or will they shuffle them around as originally planned?

Thanks, and sorry to get in the way!

1) Current plan is on the 19th 3 diagrams will run but is incredibly changeable so anything could happen!
They are the diagrams that interwork with Holyheads too so there's only a couple of Manchesters planned, 0626 being one.
2) First class is planned to be used but is unlikely to have meals available to start with, should be some form of catering but not sure yet if buffet or trolley.
3) All sets should now be in the formation- 67-TOE-TOD-SV-POD-DVT. When the 5th car is added it will be the TO added back between the DVT and POD now.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

1) Current plan is on the 19th 3 diagrams will run but is incredibly changeable so anything could happen!
They are the diagrams that interwork with Holyheads too so there's only a couple of Manchesters planned, 0626 being one.
2) First class is planned to be used but is unlikely to have meals available to start with, should be some form of catering but not sure yet if buffet or trolley.
3) All sets should now be in the formation- 67-TOE-TOD-SV-POD-DVT. When the 5th car is added it will be the TO added back between the DVT and POD now.

HD02 certainly isn't in that formation! The POD is still with the SV between the two current standard carriages. I understood that the 5th car being added was a TOD and the current standard coach that isn't an end coach is just a TO?

 

[sd0733]

HD02 certainly isn't in that formation! The POD is still with the SV between the two current standard carriages. I understood that the 5th car being added was a TOD and the current standard coach that isn't an end coach is just a TO?

I mean after today! 02 should be gone when it gets back.

All sets should match the GC ones when they've had SDO fitted and be remarshalled with the TOD added and the TO taken out as per HD04, 05 and 06 have been running as, this allows standard wheelchair spaces.
The TOs that are currently in the sets are being taken out and stored until the 5th car project starts.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I mean after today! 02 should be gone when it gets back.

All sets should match the GC ones when they've had SDO fitted and be remarshalled with the TOD added and the TO taken out as per HD04, 05 and 06 have been running as, this allows standard wheelchair spaces.
The TOs that are currently in the sets are being taken out and stored until the 5th car project starts.

Got you, sorry for misunderstanding!

 

[Merle Haggard]

I have a couple of observations about the Holyhead - Cardiff and v.v. service, not sure if I should post on this thread though, happy to be redirected.

On an occasion when I planned to use the service (from Bangor) I checked on RTT and it showed a nice picture of a Mk4 set for the train. I should have noticed, I know, that there was no loco allocated. The display (a detail only shown after the previous train had gone) said 'formed of 2 coaches' and it was 2 x 153. There was no announcement or apology for the lack of first class/ buffet/ comfort in the standard. either at the station or on the train .

The first class coaches that I have travelled in appear to have no external indication of being first class at all (I go by the 2nd digit of the stock number) and inside it seems little better, though obviously 2 + 1 seating rather nice condiment sets on the tables are clues for the observant.

Not a rant or complaint, just saying.

 

[Rhydgaled]

even though they will now have SDO, the FC coach is still the only coach with an accessible toilet and wheelchair area until the 5th coach is added which has a standard class one. The FC coach has to therefore be platformed until that happens.

I thought this explained why the first class coach had been marshalled towards the middle of the formation (with standard class coaches both ahead of it and behind it) but then we are told:

3) All sets should now be in the formation- 67-TOE-TOD-SV-POD-DVT. When the 5th car is added it will be the TO added back between the DVT and POD now.

Were the TO to be added between the DVT and POD, that would make the five coach formation 67-TOE-TOD-SV-POD-TO-DVT which would again put the first class coach in a standard class sandwich. That would leave passengers in the TO having to walk through first (which I would be rather concerned about doing, given the warnings in some first class coaches about not even being allowed to stand in first class vestibules if you only have a standard class ticket) to access the buffet. Surely the best formation would be whichever of the following two options ensures that the TOD is platformed:

• 67-TOE-TO-TOD-SV-POD-DVT
• 67-TOE-TOD-TO-SV-POD-DVT

And if the sets all have SDO now, why can they not increase to 5-car yet (particularly as they have had to do some shunting to replace the TO with the TOD anyway - why not just add the TOD to the set to increase capacity sooner rather than swapping them)? Sorry, I've probably asked this before (and probably got an answer too, but I've forgotten it).

The first class coaches that I have travelled in appear to have no external indication of being first class at all (I go by the 2nd digit of the stock number) and inside it seems little better, though obviously 2 + 1 seating rather nice condiment sets on the tables are clues for the observant.

Re. the external livery, both Grand Central (black sets) and StagecoachVirgin EastCoast (red/white sets) don't appear to have used the standard yellow stripe to identify first class on their mark 4 sets (although Grand Central seem to have it on their mark 3s). However, you can still tell a first class vehicle with both liveries - the StagecoachVirgin (VTEC) livery has a pair of purple lines randomly running along beneath the window band on the first class vehicles and the Grand Central livery has a sort of dull golden colour on the doors of first class coaches instead of the silver/white on the standard class doors.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I thought this explained why the first class coach had been marshalled towards the middle of the formation (with standard class coaches both ahead of it and behind it) but then we are told:


Were the TO to be added between the DVT and POD, that would make the five coach formation 67-TOE-TOD-SV-POD-TO-DVT which would again put the first class coach in a standard class sandwich. That would leave passengers in the TO having to walk through first (which I would be rather concerned about doing, given the warnings in some first class coaches about not even being allowed to stand in first class vestibules if you only have a standard class ticket) to access the buffet. Surely the best formation would be whichever of the following two options ensures that the TOD is platformed:

• 67-TOE-TO-TOD-SV-POD-DVT
• 67-TOE-TOD-TO-SV-POD-DVT

And if the sets all have SDO now, why can they not increase to 5-car yet (particularly as they have had to do some shunting to replace the TO with the TOD anyway - why not just add the TOD to the set to increase capacity sooner rather than swapping them)? Sorry, I've probably asked this before (and probably got an answer too, but I've forgotten it).


Re. the external livery, both Grand Central (black sets) and StagecoachVirgin EastCoast (red/white sets) don't appear to have used the standard yellow stripe to identify first class on their mark 4 sets (although Grand Central seem to have it on their mark 3s). However, you can still tell a first class vehicle with both liveries - the StagecoachVirgin (VTEC) livery has a pair of purple lines randomly running along beneath the window band on the first class vehicles and the Grand Central livery has a sort of dull golden colour on the doors of first class coaches instead of the silver/white on the standard class doors.

Thanks for that. I'd forgotten the one line/two lines distinction on VTEC.
As an aside, my understanding is that the yellow stripe is a U.I.C. convention, and some of the TOCs are not members. It's notable that those with ownership, at least in part, by railways based in mainland Europe (and therefore very likely to be UIC members) do use the yellow stripe. Indeed, when Abellio (part NS) took over what became the West Midlands franchise, yellow stripes were applied. Similarly, when Cross Country (or, technically, Arriva) were bought by D.B. yellow stripes started to appear on their trains, too. Now it's a nationally run system, perhaps TfW should join the UIC...

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I thought this explained why the first class coach had been marshalled towards the middle of the formation (with standard class coaches both ahead of it and behind it) but then we are told:


Were the TO to be added between the DVT and POD, that would make the five coach formation 67-TOE-TOD-SV-POD-TO-DVT which would again put the first class coach in a standard class sandwich. That would leave passengers in the TO having to walk through first (which I would be rather concerned about doing, given the warnings in some first class coaches about not even being allowed to stand in first class vestibules if you only have a standard class ticket) to access the buffet. Surely the best formation would be whichever of the following two options ensures that the TOD is platformed:

• 67-TOE-TO-TOD-SV-POD-DVT
• 67-TOE-TOD-TO-SV-POD-DVT

And if the sets all have SDO now, why can they not increase to 5-car yet (particularly as they have had to do some shunting to replace the TO with the TOD anyway - why not just add the TOD to the set to increase capacity sooner rather than swapping them)? Sorry, I've probably asked this before (and probably got an answer too, but I've forgotten it).


Re. the external livery, both Grand Central (black sets) and StagecoachVirgin EastCoast (red/white sets) don't appear to have used the standard yellow stripe to identify first class on their mark 4 sets (although Grand Central seem to have it on their mark 3s). However, you can still tell a first class vehicle with both liveries - the StagecoachVirgin (VTEC) livery has a pair of purple lines randomly running along beneath the window band on the first class vehicles and the Grand Central livery has a sort of dull golden colour on the doors of first class coaches instead of the silver/white on the standard class doors.

The 5 car sets will need more paperwork and testing first hence why they're not utilising the extra carriages yet.

 

[IanXC]

Thanks for that. I'd forgotten the one line/two lines distinction on VTEC.
As an aside, my understanding is that the yellow stripe is a U.I.C. convention, and some of the TOCs are not members. It's notable that those with ownership, at least in part, by railways based in mainland Europe (and therefore very likely to be UIC members) do use the yellow stripe. Indeed, when Abellio (part NS) took over what became the West Midlands franchise, yellow stripes were applied. Similarly, when Cross Country (or, technically, Arriva) were bought by D.B. yellow stripes started to appear on their trains, too. Now it's a nationally run system, perhaps TfW should join the UIC...

A yellow stripe for First Class predates UIC... The Great Eastern Railway was definitely using it in 1920 when they launched what became known as "Jazz Trains" (incidentally with a blue stripe for Second and no stripe for Third). UIC wasn't established until 1922.

 

[daodao]

I note that the new timetable starting today (11/12/22) on the Marches line (table 131 in the Network Rail system timetable) does not indicate any first class provision on Sundays. Is this because the refurbished locomotive-hauled trains will not be running on Sundays, or because the first class will be declassified on this day of the week? This will be a disincentive to using first-class travel on other days of the week, as a 1st class return will be less value if there is no first class service when one's outward or return trip is on a Sunday. When I used this service, I typically travelled to Cardiff on a Sunday.

 

[sd0733]

I note that the new timetable starting today (11/12/22) on the Marches line (table 131 in the Network Rail system timetable) does not indicate any first class provision on Sundays. Is this because the refurbished locomotive-hauled trains will not be running on Sundays, or because the first class will be declassified on this day of the week? This will be a disincentive to using first-class travel on other days of the week, as a 1st class return will be less value if there is no first class service if one's outward or return trip is on a Sunday. When I used this service, I typically travelled to Cardiff on a Sunday.

Yes, the locos are only out Monday-Saturday. Sundays see a lot of 15x diagrams on the Manchesters.

 

[daodao]

Yes, the locos are only out Monday-Saturday. Sundays see a lot of 15x diagrams on the Manchesters.

Thanks for your clarification.

I note from Real Time Trains that many of the services today are formed of coupled 153 units. These are probably acceptable (they are essentially reformatted class 155 trains that were used on the line 30+ years ago), as would be class 158 trains, but do ATW use class 150 trains on these services regularly? Class 150 sprinters are really only fit for short/local journeys with 5 across seating layouts and doors that open in the middle of the carriages.

It is a pity that ATW aren't intending to use the loco-hauled inter-city carriages on Sundays.

 

[43096]

I note from Real Time Trains that many of the services today are formed of coupled 153 units. These are probably acceptable (they are essentially reformatted class 155 trains that were used on the line 30+ years ago), as would be class 158 trains, but do they use class 150 trains on these services regularly? Class 150 sprinters are really only fit for short/local journeys with 5 across seating layouts and doors that open in the middle of the carriages.

The TfW 150s have 2+2 seating. Why does doors at 1/3s make a difference? Are Turbostars not acceptable as “regional express” trains?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for your clarification.

I note from Real Time Trains that many of the services today are formed of coupled 153 units. These are probably acceptable (they are essentially reformatted class 155 trains that were used on the line 30+ years ago), as would be class 158 trains, but do ATW use class 150 trains on these services regularly? Class 150 sprinters are really only fit for short/local journeys with 5 across seating layouts and doors that open in the middle of the carriages.

It is a pity that ATW aren't intending to use the loco-hauled inter-city carriages on Sundays.

Neither 153s nor 150s are really "acceptable" on such long distance services, but passengers will have to put up with them appearing regularly for some years yet. With the 153s seemingly having a long term future on the Heart of Wales line (I'd be pretty peeved at the downgrade from a 170 if that were my local line!), they may still be making an appearance on Marches services in 10 years' time.

 

[craigybagel]

I note that the new timetable starting today (11/12/22) on the Marches line (table 131 in the Network Rail system timetable) does not indicate any first class provision on Sundays. Is this because the refurbished locomotive-hauled trains will not be running on Sundays, or because the first class will be declassified on this day of the week? This will be a disincentive to using first-class travel on other days of the week, as a 1st class return will be less value if there is no first class service when one's outward or return trip is on a Sunday. When I used this service, I typically travelled to Cardiff on a Sunday.

Just because there are no MKIVs planned for Sundays at the moment, doesn't mean that will be the case in future when the full service is introduced.

That being said, most operators that do run with 1st Class provide a reduced offering for which cheaper Weekend 1st upgrades can be purchased, suggesting there isn't that much demand for a full premium service on a weekend (and indeed it would be a bit of a waste in many cases to use an open 1st Class ticket on these services).

Thanks for your clarification.

I note from Real Time Trains that many of the services today are formed of coupled 153 units. These are probably acceptable (they are essentially reformatted class 155 trains that were used on the line 30+ years ago), as would be class 158 trains, but do ATW use class 150 trains on these services regularly? Class 150 sprinters are really only fit for short/local journeys with 5 across seating layouts and doors that open in the middle of the carriages.

The only 150s with 5 across seating are the 2 units currently on loan from Northern. In any case, 150s won't be on the Marches for much longer.

Neither 153s nor 150s are really "acceptable" on such long distance services, but passengers will have to put up with them appearing regularly for some years yet. With the 153s seemingly having a long term future on the Heart of Wales line (I'd be pretty peeved at the downgrade from a 170 if that were my local line!), they may still be making an appearance on Marches services in 10 years' time.

Likewise, once the 197s and MKIVs are in full service you won't see 153s on the Marches other than between Craven Arms and Shrewsbury on HOWL services. Most depots are losing their competencies, it won't be possible to run them.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for your clarification.

I note from Real Time Trains that many of the services today are formed of coupled 153 units. These are probably acceptable (they are essentially reformatted class 155 trains that were used on the line 30+ years ago), as would be class 158 trains, but do ATW use class 150 trains on these services regularly? Class 150 sprinters are really only fit for short/local journeys with 5 across seating layouts and doors that open in the middle of the carriages.

It is a pity that ATW aren't intending to use the loco-hauled inter-city carriages on Sundays.

Quite a few 150 diagrams too. Mostly in pairs. The tfw 150s are 2+2 seating.
Lots of 158s and 153s in the mix too.

The reason 67s arent out on a Sunday i have been told is to give DB access to give heavy maintenance and swap out locos where required. There is relatively little downtime for this during the week so Sundays are being used.
Hopefully once everything beds in and all testing, refurbs and mods are completed then more sets will be available and a couple may see use on Sundays in the future. If not at least there will be 197s with first class

 

[Jez]

All Manchester to Crewe services seem to have been cancelled. They must be really short of train crew at Crewe depot given they are the only ones that sign that route. All services to South Wales seem to be starting at Crewe. And all seem to be either 153s/150s or 158s. I wonder where the 175s are. Usually we see an abundance of sprinters on this route on a Sunday but usually some are 175s too.