West Cumbrian Mine gets go ahead

[WatcherZero]

Any fuel can be used, but coking coal would produce a lot of clag and would be more acidic and accelerate boiler corrosion so not very suitable for long term preservation.

 

[Gloster]

A comment on the Cumbrian Railways Associations chatline said that Johnson had been expected in Cumbria last Thursday and it could be that he was going to say that it was going ahead. He leaves other to announce anything that might be unpopular. I wonder why he wasn’t able to make it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A comment on the Cumbrian Railways Associations chatline said that Johnson had been expected in Cumbria last Thursday and it could be that he was going to say that it was going ahead. He leaves other to announce anything that might be unpopular. I wonder why he wasn’t able to make it.

Fairly sure that Boris was asked to attend an alternative engagement in Central London which had been arranged at short notice for around 12.30 p.m. on Thursday.

Much as he would have liked to have been 300+ miles away in West Cumbria, it just wasn't possible.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

A decision will now be made by mid-August:

A decision over whether to approve the UK's first deep coal mine for 30 years will be made on or before 17 August.

A government ruling on the controversial coking coal mine near Whitehaven, Cumbria, had been due to take place this week.

Communities Secretary Michael Gove was set to make the announcement on Wednesday, but he was sacked as turmoil engulfed the Conservative party.

The government has now said ministers need more time to "consider the case".

Full article in this link:

Cumbria coal mine: Delayed decision expected by mid August

Having missed its deadline this week, the government says more time is needed to consider the plans.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Seemingly the decision is now to be made by the 8th December, having meant to have been early-November after being rolled over from mid-August!

The inquiry officially closed late last year and the Government had originally promised to make a final planning decision on or before 7 July.

That date was then pushed back again and was expected to be made this week, just days prior to COP27 in Egypt.

However, Friends of the Earth received a letter from the government confirming the delay. The environmental charity claim that a decision is now due “on or before 8 December 2022”.

Decision on Cumbria coal mine pushed back for a third time - edie

A decision on whether the Government will approve or deny planning permission for a new coal mine in Cumbria has been pushed back a third time, with a decision now expected by 8 December 2022.

www.edie.net

 

[TPO]

It's a crying shame that the green hypocrites have prevented this for so long.

Anyone who uses anything made with steel (including traveling on the train- which uses steel wheels/steel rails) cannot object to the mine without being a hypocrite.

Is it not better to mine the coal under UK regulations on safety/environmental controls and use it for our own steelworks thus preserving good jobs and making steel with better environmental and working conditions that they have elsewhere in the world (in say China)- and I seem to recall that Scunthorpe makes rail for railways- than to import coking coal (or steel) from somewhere that does not bother with the niceties of safety of miners/workers or environmental protection?

TPO

 

[ian1944]

I assume that the Green wish is that, eventually, steel is made wholly with electric power derived from renewable sources (not sure if currently that includes nuclear, these things keep changing). There's no hypocrisy in deprecating something while, of necessity, using one of its products until a more acceptable alternative is available, and urging the onset of that alternative.

I always await with interest the first appearance in these debates of nimby/Nimby, green/Green, etc, in an emotive (i.e. anti) sense.

 

[CdBrux]

There's no hypocrisy in deprecating something while, of necessity, using one of its products until a more acceptable alternative is available, and urging the onset of that alternative.

For example Cumbrian coal whilst waiting for an affordable, greener, alternative

 

[snowball]

For example Cumbrian coal whilst waiting for an affordable, greener, alternative

But what would such a wait be waiting for? If you can switch to eletcric arc steelmaking in the future, why not do so now?

 

[AndrewE]

But what would such a wait be waiting for? If you can switch to eletcric arc steelmaking in the future, why not do so now?

Because EE steelmaking is predominantly used for recycling scrap.
Direct-reduction steelmaking (actually making the iron in the first place) requires a) loads of hydrogen and b) lots of electricity too. Neither of those is green yet.
I agree that (while coal is needed) locally-produced coal would be better for the environment and worker safety than coal brought half way round the world.

 

[Ken H]

But what would such a wait be waiting for? If you can switch to eletcric arc steelmaking in the future, why not do so now?

You need the carbon in coal to make steel, which is an alloy of iron and carbon. Not sure how you get carbon from electricity. Its a complex chemical reaction, not just a 'warm it up' process. I think electric arc uses carbon electrodes that are sacrificed in the process. Wonder where the carbon comes from.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But what would such a wait be waiting for? If you can switch to eletcric arc steelmaking in the future, why not do so now?

Why not indeed - provided you have a very affordable , very easily sourced of said cheap power and a few other things. There might also be a time lag.

What is left of the UK steel industry is struggling , partly through international pressures , not so long ago USA imports - and much more recently Chinese (which amazingly is very reliant on coal)

There is probably a huge debate to be had on this , but in the interim, strident protests and dismay over "nasty Cumbrian coal" does not help. In my opinion anyway.

(you could align this to importing wood chips or biomass - with I am sure delightful eco-friendly Chinese wood pellets being imported to fuel French housing for example)

 

[HSTEd]

But what would such a wait be waiting for? If you can switch to eletcric arc steelmaking in the future, why not do so now?

Electric arc steelmaking does not magically make the requirement for chemical reductant dissapear.

At best you can get a measurable but still small reduction in emissions from switching to direct-reduced-iron reduced by natural gas - at least until hydrogen supplies materialise at reasonable cost.

But to do that you'd have to tear down the entire remaining steel industry and rebuild it - and I'd suggest its far more likely that it'd just close and that would be the end of it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Electric arc steelmaking does not magically make the requirement for chemical reductant dissapear.

At best you can get a measurable but still small reduction in emissions from switching to direct-reduced-iron reduced by natural gas - at least until hydrogen supplies materialise at reasonable cost.

But to do that you'd have to tear down the entire remaining steel industry and rebuild it - and I'd suggest its far more likely that it'd just close and that would be the end of it.

Well said - more than a bit challenging for the European , let alone what is left of the UK steel industry at the moment.

No expert despite 2 Geography degrees and a keen interest in what used to be called "economic geography" - but steel produced from scrap iron was never very great in the UK , but as a de-industrialising nation - we recently used to ship vast quantities of metal scrap - to China. ........(then to buy it back in completed forms)

Anyway - local produced coking coal in Cumbria (and there are vast amounts - untapped in South Wales - amazingly near the still functioning inegrated works at Port Talbot) would assist retention of the industry for now. A lot better than transporting basics right across the world. At best from Australia , worse from say Colombia)

 

[Oxfordblues]

It's a dreadful irony that, after a year-long strike trying to save the jobs of thousands of miners against a ruthless Tory regime, we've now had huge opposition to a Tory government trying to open a new coal-mine. I well-remember the slogan "Coal not Dole". I wonder what Arthur Scargill thinks of it all!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's a dreadful irony that, after a year-long strike trying to save the jobs of thousands of miners against a ruthless Tory regime, we've now had huge opposition to a Tory government trying to open a new coal-mine. I well-remember the slogan "Coal not Dole". I wonder what Arthur Scargill thinks of it all!

I had not thought about that. As you say, ironical.

 

[zwk500]

It's a dreadful irony that, after a year-long strike trying to save the jobs of thousands of miners against a ruthless Tory regime, we've now had huge opposition to a Tory government trying to open a new coal-mine. I well-remember the slogan "Coal not Dole". I wonder what Arthur Scargill thinks of it all!

Scargill would presumably still be looking at it all with early-1970s red-tinted glasses on. His failure to recognise times were changing was part of the reason he lost in the 80s. Times have only changed further still.
It's hardly the first piece of irony around the love triangle between coal, the railways and tory governments. The first piece of purpose-designed High Speed Railway in this country was built under a Tory government to permit the opening of a brand new pit in Yorkshire (Selby diversion). And the economics of the UK railfreight industry took a massive knock when Cameron's government rushed to get rid of coal-fired power in the 2010s.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Alas not via Cockermouth, Keswick, Penrith, Barnard Castle, Darlington & Middlesbrough (which might have been a tadge more direct)...

is an interesting reversal that those lines were partly built to bring Durham coke to West Cumberland iron & steelworks, as local coal was not suitable for coking, but now apparently, it is ...

 

[AJG3]

is an interesting reversal that those lines were partly built to bring Durham coke to West Cumberland iron & steelworks, as local coal was not suitable for coking, but now apparently, it is ...

Some coal in the West Cumberland coalfield is suitable; the United Steel Companies owned some of the local collieries; e.g. Harrington No.10 and Solway. There were even plans to install an overhead conveyor to move the coal from Solway to the coke ovens at the steelworks the other side of the tracks at Moss Bay, Workington, but it never came to fruition. As far as I understand it, the coalfield could not produce enough coking coal; hence importing it from Co. Durham.

 

[ExRes]

It's a dreadful irony that, after a year-long strike trying to save the jobs of thousands of miners against a ruthless Tory regime, we've now had huge opposition to a Tory government trying to open a new coal-mine. I well-remember the slogan "Coal not Dole". I wonder what Arthur Scargill thinks of it all!

Let's not forget though that Wilson and the Labour government shut far more pits than Thatcher and the Conservatives did, let's also not ignore the fact that this potential reopening is for a specific coal for a specific purpose not for the general use that hasn't existed for years

 

[lyndhurst25]

Let's not forget though that Wilson and the Labour government shut far more pits than Thatcher and the Conservatives did, let's also not ignore the fact that this potential reopening is for a specific coal for a specific purpose not for the general use that hasn't existed for years

That piece of “information” is often trotted out, but without the important detail. The pits closed under Wilson were mainly small, exhausted, Victorian mines (“a few dozen blokes an a couple of pit ponies affairs”), with the miners being offered transfer to modern, more efficient “superpits” where massive investment was focussed. The closures under the Tories were of those very same superpits, as part of a managed run down of the industry.

Likewise, the Selby coalfield and the required ECML diversion, although opened after the time that Thatcher came to power, was planned and construction started under the 1970s Labour government’s investment “Plan for Coal”.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it would be best if we avoided re-litigating the Miners Strike and who was responsible/contributed to the collapse of that industry. It's a worthy topic of discussion but better suited to a new thread in General Discussion rather than this thread which about the prospects of a new mine in Cumbria.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Some coal in the West Cumberland coalfield

I didn't know that, thank you.

 

[randyrippley]

is an interesting reversal that those lines were partly built to bring Durham coke to West Cumberland iron & steelworks, as local coal was not suitable for coking, but now apparently, it is ...

There's a big question as to whether it is suitable. Allegedly it has a high sulphur content making it useless for most UK steelworks.

 

[Dai Corner]

Let's not forget though that Wilson and the Labour government shut far more pits than Thatcher and the Conservatives did, let's also not ignore the fact that this potential reopening is for a specific coal for a specific purpose not for the general use that hasn't existed for years

Nor that the Welsh Labour Government is doing its best to shut down what remains of the Welsh coal mining industry and have coal for Port Talbot steelworks imported from abroad (or maybe Cumbria in future).

 

[MisterSheeps]

a high sulphur content

Is that simply a case of using flue gas desulphurisation (sulphur & CO2 gases passed through limestone, gives useful byproduct of gypsum) at the coking plant?
If so, coke it at the mine, send the gypsum to Kirkby Thore, save transport costs of coke vs coal.

 

[Ediswan]

There's a big question as to whether it is suitable. Allegedly it has a high sulphur content making it useless for most UK steelworks.

Alleged by who ?

 

[randyrippley]

Alleged by who ?

can't find the report now, but I think it was in New Scientist a few months back.
The story went that Tata Steel couldn't use the stuff
If they can't, it's unlikely others can

 

[furnessvale]

can't find the report now, but I think it was in New Scientist a few months back.
The story went that Tata Steel couldn't use the stuff
If they can't, it's unlikely others can

A quick Google shows that the New scientist appears to be VERY anti coal in general, and the new mine in particular. Pinch of salt needed, methinks. I'm sure the new mining company will have done its homework BEFORE investing £millions.

 

[Ken H]

A quick Google shows that the New scientist appears to be VERY anti coal in general, and the new mine in particular. Pinch of salt needed, methinks. I'm sure the new mining company will have done its homework BEFORE investing £millions.

Also different blast furnaces can take different types of coal, and can also add other minerals to counteract unwanted impurities
Remember, the coal is the input to a complex chemical reaction. It isnt just a heat source.