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Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

Tetchytyke

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May be too far from core west yorks, but perfect for North, east, south yorks and Hull. Hope Truss is telling the truth and will save it, Leeds is past its best.

As with the first Sheffield Airport, and nearby Humberside Airport, DSA is closing because nobody wants to use it.

It's easy to "save" an airport- you just shovel vast quantities of taxpayer cash at it. The bigger question is whether that's the best use of the money.

Teesside is being kept afloat with huge amounts of taxpayer cash- Houchen's spaffed over £60M on it so far- and for what? There are four flights from Teesside today and four tomorrow. Newcastle, an hour up the road, has over 60 today, and LBA an hour the other way is about the same.

Imagine what £60M would have done for Teesside bus and rail networks.

For an airport thats "past its best", LBA has numbers other airports could only dream of.
 
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Pit_buzzer

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The last TUI outbound flights departed on Friday 28th. The returning inbound TUIs will run through to November 4th with the final arrival being from Hurghada at 21.15 on the 4th.

Yesterday, Saturday 29th saw the last 3 inbound and outbound Wizz flights, the 22.55 to Katowice being the last passenger departure from the airport
 

Iskra

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I landed back at Doncaster last Friday, the air hostess crew leader burst into tears making the arrival announcement (her last) which was applauded by all onboard. It’s a great airport to pass through, but very poorly located and hard to reach, even from Sheffield.84186B94-52ED-4761-8F38-D7B1C63DA85D.jpeg
 

Halifaxlad

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As with the first Sheffield Airport, and nearby Humberside Airport, DSA is closing because nobody wants to use it.

It's easy to "save" an airport- you just shovel vast quantities of taxpayer cash at it. The bigger question is whether that's the best use of the money.

Teesside is being kept afloat with huge amounts of taxpayer cash- Houchen's spaffed over £60M on it so far- and for what? There are four flights from Teesside today and four tomorrow. Newcastle, an hour up the road, has over 60 today, and LBA an hour the other way is about the same.

Imagine what £60M would have done for Teesside bus and rail networks.

For an airport thats "past its best", LBA has numbers other airports could only dream of.
People want to use DSA and they do use it!

People can't use it if operators don't use it!

DSA has room for expansion and its more reliable as its not on the top of a hill like LBA.

People use LBA but a lot of people are against its expansion because its flight path goes over a large residential area.

DSA could be so much bigger than LBA if it was connected to the ECML.
 

Killingworth

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DSA could be so much bigger than LBA if it was connected to the ECML.
Peel managed to get big public support for the road link to the airport, very useful for housing and a business park too. It would require massive public support for the proposed ECML link, not least because it crosses the recently built link road. Map taken from Lincolnite website.

Chicken and egg regarding use. With big passenger numbers TOCs might consider scheduling trains that way but without it's just another profitless stop adding delay to the timetable.
Screenshot (869).png

See;
 

Pit_buzzer

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Nick fletcher mp recently described this proposal as a shovel ready scheme, by then it had already been rejected and the land involved was part of peels next proposal for expansion. The local politicians have been totally detached from reality throughout this issue
 

westv

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I landed back at Doncaster last Friday, the air hostess crew leader burst into tears making the arrival announcement (her last) which was applauded by all onboard. It’s a great airport to pass through, but very poorly located and hard to reach, even from Sheffield.View attachment 122869
Hard to reach? For me it was easier than Leeds Bradford and not so far away from the motorway network. Just a pity Jet2 didn't use it.
 

blackfive460

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but very poorly located and hard to reach
I used to go there for flying lessons and found it easy by public transport from Doncaster station but I never flew commercial from there as the range of scheduled destinations was far too limited.
Likewise Humberside, not enough operators, not enough routes...
 

Iskra

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Hard to reach? For me it was easier than Leeds Bradford and not so far away from the motorway network. Just a pity Jet2 didn't use it.
It is from Sheffield on public transport! Much easier to get to Manchester, and with significantly more flight/destination choice it’s a no brainer!
 

westv

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It was mentioned on last night's local news that talks with a "potential buyer" from the UAE are ongoing.
 

tbtc

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It is from Sheffield on public transport! Much easier to get to Manchester, and with significantly more flight/destination choice it’s a no brainer!

Well, Covid killed off hourly Stagecoach X6 from the city centre to DSA…

…whilst the Castlefield “reorganisation” has killed off the majority of direct trains to Manchester Airport (Three o’clock in the morning and ten o’clock at night, in theory, assuming TPE can run their Hope Valley trains, which I wouldn’t personally trust if I had a plane to check in for in a few hours time) so only one “easy” interface per hour at Piccadilly (the EMR to Liverpool stops at platform 14 from where it’s easy to board an airport train from platform 13, rather than schlepping from the majority of TPE services in main terminal platforms across to the island ones)…

…so neither feels “much easier” to me (plenty of buses from Sheffield to Doncaster and then a connecting service from the same bus station to the Airport, the bus from Stockport to Manchester Airport used to be half hourly pre Covid but I’ve not gone that way recently so don’t know)

Certainly more flight choice west of the Pennines, I’m not contesting that

Peel managed to get big public support for the road link to the airport, very useful for housing and a business park too

You know the way that some firms have a business model that isn’t what you used to think it was? For example, newspapers really exist nowadays not to sell the news to people but to sell those people to advertisers (hence the need to keep them angry/ engaged/ clicking away on their mice)…

…as per the London Standard/ Metro, you could make more money giving the paper away for nowt but using the increased readership to get more advertisers to stump up than you would by relying on just newsagent revenue to sustain an advert free newspaper.

I formed the opinion many years ago that Peel existed with a simple business plan:

1. Get involved in some failing/ failed project at a “distressed” (i.e. dirt cheap) price

2. Get public sector money to try to sustain it - helps if you can go for a source of local pride where MPs will want to nail their flags to the mast and be seen to enthusiastically back it - so Ports/ Airports are a safe bet - the people of Teesside will like an MP effectively handing a blank cheque to sustain the unsuccessful “Durham Tees Valley” because people want to hear about local investment, they like a guy who sells a future of DTV being bigger than Newcastle/ Leeds/Bradford rather than accepting that, although Darlington punches well above its weight in terms of trains, they live in a huge gap between viable airports and it’s just not feasible to sustain lightly used airports

3. See if that blank cheque is enough to sustain a heavily lots making facility for a couple of years, don’t forget to rattle the tin from time to time to shake an extra couple of quid out of well meaning public sector people who didn’t want their fingerprints on the closure of a much loved (but not much used!) facility

4. Insist that the reason figures haven’t made things profitable is because the council (etc) aren’t helping enough, “if only we had a swanky new dual carriageway road and a new train station to encourage people” - the Sunk Cost Falacy means the MPs/Councillors will feel they have no choice but to continue to back these things, even quashing concerns from the likes of the Environment Agency about the impact of the road because we must save our local facility - maybe they’ll have a petition in the local press encouraging people to show how much they want to back this funding and get it built ASAP regardless of wildlife etc

5. Fail. You tried everything, it’s not your fault, ensure that the press releases show how blameless you are, made you could insinuate that Local Government didn’t do enough to help, but you’ve got to keep them briefly on-side because of the next step (maybe you threaten closure a couple of times to see what emergency funding is forthcoming first though?)

6. Ooh, look, you now own a huge brownfield site with adjacent dual carriageway and train station - it’s not viable as an Airport but you’d make a fortune flogging houses there - people are less likely to complain as it’s already been built on, so not like destroying the green belt. Plus you can point out that the road/rail facilities will be a “White Elephant” without any purpose if there’s nothing for them to serve, how could any elected official refuse your generous offer to “solve” the local housing problems by keeping new builds concentrated on this brownfield site (the fact you after making a fortune from turning a failing Airport etc into land rich for development due to the public investment in facilities is just a coincidence, honest!). Planning permission guaranteed.

7. Rinse And Repeat elsewhere in the country - there’ll always be MPs prepared to put local pride ahead of common sense, there always be councillors happy to massively back an airport even when austerity is forcing them to close vital public services, always another sucker…

In fairness, it’s not just Peel who do this and it’s not just airports that these firms use, look at the crazy sums Holyrood is paying to ensure that a couple of ships get built on the Clyde due to the emotional attachment which Glaswegians have to the old dockyards, or look at the “Port” on Merseyside; I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these small but heavily funded “train building” facilities in places like Newport/ Goole/ Clackmannan are about squeezing lots of public sector money to “back local jobs” (what councillor/ MP will want to be seen to reject this scheme to maintain an assembly line?). Even though the initial order of trains only keeps it open for a couple of years, before you have to lay people off and decide that there’s not enough of a gap in the market to keep it going, unless the State either throw u you some juicy bones or at least some of the land is turned over to housing - the factories are all being built in areas where there’s a lack of economic expansion otherwise and you can presumably use that to manipulate politicians - e.g. the WAG/ Senydd will feel compelled to put any new orders to Newport even if it would be cheaper to go elsewhere and still have money left over to give everyone in Newport a few thousand pounds

So, really, Peel exist to transform (failing) business into prime housing land, that’s the ultimate point of the business - they didn’t expect DSA to succeed - they probably didn’t really want it to succeed - their only regret will be the fact that the ECML wasn’t diverted to stop next door (it’d have meant direct trains to Leeds in about forty five minutes and to London in just over an hour and a half, which would have made it prime real estate)

Let’s just see who Peel (try to) get into bed with next, and whether other regions have been paying attention or maybe these parasites will find another pay day (much like Lyle Langley does in Ogdenville/ North Haverbrook etc, if you know your Monorails…)
 

Iskra

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Well, Covid killed off hourly Stagecoach X6 from the city centre to DSA…

…whilst the Castlefield “reorganisation” has killed off the majority of direct trains to Manchester Airport (Three o’clock in the morning and ten o’clock at night, in theory, assuming TPE can run their Hope Valley trains, which I wouldn’t personally trust if I had a plane to check in for in a few hours time) so only one “easy” interface per hour at Piccadilly (the EMR to Liverpool stops at platform 14 from where it’s easy to board an airport train from platform 13, rather than schlepping from the majority of TPE services in main terminal platforms across to the island ones)…

…so neither feels “much easier” to me (plenty of buses from Sheffield to Doncaster and then a connecting service from the same bus station to the Airport, the bus from Stockport to Manchester Airport used to be half hourly pre Covid but I’ve not gone that way recently so don’t know)

Certainly more flight choice west of the Pennines, I’m not contesting that



You know the way that some firms have a business model that isn’t what you used to think it was? For example, newspapers really exist nowadays not to sell the news to people but to sell those people to advertisers (hence the need to keep them angry/ engaged/ clicking away on their mice)…

…as per the London Standard/ Metro, you could make more money giving the paper away for nowt but using the increased readership to get more advertisers to stump up than you would by relying on just newsagent revenue to sustain an advert free newspaper.

I formed the opinion many years ago that Peel existed with a simple business plan:

1. Get involved in some failing/ failed project at a “distressed” (i.e. dirt cheap) price

2. Get public sector money to try to sustain it - helps if you can go for a source of local pride where MPs will want to nail their flags to the mast and be seen to enthusiastically back it - so Ports/ Airports are a safe bet - the people of Teesside will like an MP effectively handing a blank cheque to sustain the unsuccessful “Durham Tees Valley” because people want to hear about local investment, they like a guy who sells a future of DTV being bigger than Newcastle/ Leeds/Bradford rather than accepting that, although Darlington punches well above its weight in terms of trains, they live in a huge gap between viable airports and it’s just not feasible to sustain lightly used airports

3. See if that blank cheque is enough to sustain a heavily lots making facility for a couple of years, don’t forget to rattle the tin from time to time to shake an extra couple of quid out of well meaning public sector people who didn’t want their fingerprints on the closure of a much loved (but not much used!) facility

4. Insist that the reason figures haven’t made things profitable is because the council (etc) aren’t helping enough, “if only we had a swanky new dual carriageway road and a new train station to encourage people” - the Sunk Cost Falacy means the MPs/Councillors will feel they have no choice but to continue to back these things, even quashing concerns from the likes of the Environment Agency about the impact of the road because we must save our local facility - maybe they’ll have a petition in the local press encouraging people to show how much they want to back this funding and get it built ASAP regardless of wildlife etc

5. Fail. You tried everything, it’s not your fault, ensure that the press releases show how blameless you are, made you could insinuate that Local Government didn’t do enough to help, but you’ve got to keep them briefly on-side because of the next step (maybe you threaten closure a couple of times to see what emergency funding is forthcoming first though?)

6. Ooh, look, you now own a huge brownfield site with adjacent dual carriageway and train station - it’s not viable as an Airport but you’d make a fortune flogging houses there - people are less likely to complain as it’s already been built on, so not like destroying the green belt. Plus you can point out that the road/rail facilities will be a “White Elephant” without any purpose if there’s nothing for them to serve, how could any elected official refuse your generous offer to “solve” the local housing problems by keeping new builds concentrated on this brownfield site (the fact you after making a fortune from turning a failing Airport etc into land rich for development due to the public investment in facilities is just a coincidence, honest!). Planning permission guaranteed.

7. Rinse And Repeat elsewhere in the country - there’ll always be MPs prepared to put local pride ahead of common sense, there always be councillors happy to massively back an airport even when austerity is forcing them to close vital public services, always another sucker…

In fairness, it’s not just Peel who do this and it’s not just airports that these firms use, look at the crazy sums Holyrood is paying to ensure that a couple of ships get built on the Clyde due to the emotional attachment which Glaswegians have to the old dockyards, or look at the “Port” on Merseyside; I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these small but heavily funded “train building” facilities in places like Newport/ Goole/ Clackmannan are about squeezing lots of public sector money to “back local jobs” (what councillor/ MP will want to be seen to reject this scheme to maintain an assembly line?). Even though the initial order of trains only keeps it open for a couple of years, before you have to lay people off and decide that there’s not enough of a gap in the market to keep it going, unless the State either throw u you some juicy bones or at least some of the land is turned over to housing - the factories are all being built in areas where there’s a lack of economic expansion otherwise and you can presumably use that to manipulate politicians - e.g. the WAG/ Senydd will feel compelled to put any new orders to Newport even if it would be cheaper to go elsewhere and still have money left over to give everyone in Newport a few thousand pounds

So, really, Peel exist to transform (failing) business into prime housing land, that’s the ultimate point of the business - they didn’t expect DSA to succeed - they probably didn’t really want it to succeed - their only regret will be the fact that the ECML wasn’t diverted to stop next door (it’d have meant direct trains to Leeds in about forty five minutes and to London in just over an hour and a half, which would have made it prime real estate)

Let’s just see who Peel (try to) get into bed with next, and whether other regions have been paying attention or maybe these parasites will find another pay day (much like Lyle Langley does in Ogdenville/ North Haverbrook etc, if you know your Monorails…)
I looked at getting the bus for my outward flight a few weeks back, which was around 0830 from memory and it wasn't possible to get there when I originally looked into it. I would also have needed a bus in to Sheffield first. Additionally, the hotel wasn't taking bookings (I was looking in spring), so public transport wasn't an option.

I agree that rail transport to Manchester Airport is a shambles currently, and yes I've had to get both a lift and a taxi there too this year due to rail unreliability. However, the train is at least a viable option for the journey home. And, in normal times the service was pretty good and a reliable option, we may return to those times at some point in the future.
 

BoroAndy

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People keep going on about MIA, but it is a giant centralised international airport. Far too busy and uncomfortable. Most of us East of the pennines want regional airports that fly to many destinations, and also not one in a weather blackspot. Let's hope the possible deal goes ahead.
 

Killingworth

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People keep going on about MIA, but it is a giant centralised international airport. Far too busy and uncomfortable. Most of us East of the pennines want regional airports that fly to many destinations, and also not one in a weather blackspot. Let's hope the possible deal goes ahead.
Sadly it's likely to be far too late - unless it includes a very wealthy airline prepared to launch a new European hub from a ready made airport unfettered by other airlines. Dream on?
 

westv

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You do wonder if Peel ever really wanted a profitable airport. Housing/industrial estate would create a cash windfall once all the plots are sold.
 

telstarbox

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People keep going on about MIA, but it is a giant centralised international airport. Far too busy and uncomfortable. Most of us East of the pennines want regional airports that fly to many destinations, and also not one in a weather blackspot. Let's hope the possible deal goes ahead.
I can't see it myself. Putting Manchester to one side Yorkshire and the North East has around 8 million people and 1 million of those probably don't want or can't afford to fly regularly. Do they really need 2 proper airports (Leeds, Newcastle) AND 3 mini ones (Doncaster, Humberside and Teesside) and with all of those supporting "many destinations"?
 

Harpers Tate

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You do wonder if Peel ever really wanted a profitable airport. Housing/industrial estate would create a cash windfall once all the plots are sold.
Exactly. Especially as money has been invested in a huge wide road right to it ("it" being an airport at the time of this investment).
 

Killingworth

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Exactly. Especially as money has been invested in a huge wide road right to it ("it" being an airport at the time of this investment).

Curiously their plan for a rail link became significantly more expensive when their plan for a road was successful - right across the route of the proposed railway which would then have required a new road flyover to be constructed over it.
 

dosxuk

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And what does "no credible offer" mean exactly?

That no offer is being made which is compatible with their plans to strip the assets and sell the land to the highest bidder sadly close down operations.
 

Killingworth

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And what does "no credible offer" mean exactly?
It means "show me the colour of your money" but on a much bigger scale than if some guy makes a too good to be true offer for your clapped out car or the house you've personalised so that nobody in their right mind would touch it with a barge pole.

Such buyers do exist, Walter Mitty characters, but most making over generous offers are rather naive with their money. They might act even worse than the current owners if they got their hands on it. I'd want to know a lot more about them before seeing a salvation coming from that quarter. If it did it would have the advantage of a clean start from a ready built airport able to attract new airlines with new contracts all round. But if they could credibly do it why would Peel sell?
 

westv

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I wonder how many jobs will be lost at the nearby hotel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It means "show me the colour of your money" but on a much bigger scale than if some guy makes a too good to be true offer for your clapped out car or the house you've personalised so that nobody in their right mind would touch it with a barge pole.

Such buyers do exist, Walter Mitty characters, but most making over generous offers are rather naive with their money. They might act even worse than the current owners if they got their hands on it. I'd want to know a lot more about them before seeing a salvation coming from that quarter. If it did it would have the advantage of a clean start from a ready built airport able to attract new airlines with new contracts all round. But if they could credibly do it why would Peel sell?
I think I'll believe Doncaster Mayor Ros Jones, South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard and local MPs Nick Fletcher, Ed Miliband and Dame Rosie Winterton rather than Peel Group.


Responding to claims there is no "credible" offer Doncaster Mayor Ros Jones, South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard and local MPs Nick Fletcher, Ed Miliband and Dame Rosie Winterton, issued a statement saying they are concerned Peel has no intention of selling the airport.
They said after carrying out a "pro-active investor search that Peel played no part in" it is "becoming increasingly clear that Peel do not want to sell or save DSA in any form, as they continue to put in place barriers to our efforts".
The group of cross-party politicians said despite Peel's previous claims they want to develop "a forward-thinking strategy for the airport site" they have seen "very little evidence of this".
 
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Tetchytyke

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So, really, Peel exist to transform (failing) business into prime housing land, that’s the ultimate point of the business - they didn’t expect DSA to succeed - they probably didn’t really want it to succeed

Whittaker's business model has always been to extract public cash to develop/"regenerate" a facility before selling it on. He's done it with so many things, the latest being persuading the IOM Government to spend £80M on building a ferry terminal in Liverpool on derelict land that he owns and will continue to own.

There's a reason why he lives in a £30M mansion on the Isle of Man. Much of what I'd like to say about him is almost certainly libellous.

I don't think he much cares whether a self-aggrandising mayor buys the airport, as on Teesside, or whether Barratt homes do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Most of us East of the pennines want regional airports that fly to many destinations, and also not one in a weather blackspot.

If people wanted to use DSA they already would be doing. Which, as we also see at Teesside and Humberside airports, is precisely the problem.

The region north of the Wash and east of the Pennines is already adequately covered by East Midlands, Leeds/Bradford, and Newcastle. You need a critical mass to serve "many destinations", and those airports are the ones with the established business.

Teesside is only clinging on because Ben Houchen is shovelling taxpayer cash at it (which curiously benefits the businessmen who fund his electoral campaigns) at an alarming rate.
 
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Harpers Tate

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If people wanted to use DSA they already would be doing.
Chickens and eggs apply, though. I want(ed) to use it but with only low-cost and/or package operators going to a very limited range of destinations, it generally doesn't suit my destination choices. And, no, connecting me via (say) Heathrow doesn't help, either. A frequent enough direct transatlantic flight to somewhere useful/central (so, not New York) and operated by an airline that has better than EasyRyan accomodation onboard for those who want to pay for it, might have seen me use it more. That, I suspect, is part of the problem. I also suspect that Peel never tried very hard (or, at all) to acquire any such service. As it is - my next departure will be from LHR. As was my last. And I'll get there again by rail.
 

cactustwirly

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Chickens and eggs apply, though. I want(ed) to use it but with only low-cost and/or package operators going to a very limited range of destinations, it generally doesn't suit my destination choices. And, no, connecting me via (say) Heathrow doesn't help, either. A frequent enough direct transatlantic flight to somewhere useful/central (so, not New York) and operated by an airline that has better than EasyRyan accomodation onboard for those who want to pay for it, might have seen me use it more. That, I suspect, is part of the problem. I also suspect that Peel never tried very hard (or, at all) to acquire any such service. As it is - my next departure will be from LHR. As was my last. And I'll get there again by rail.

You have Aer Lingus and Virgin Atlantic from Manchester....
 

Tetchytyke

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And, no, connecting me via (say) Heathrow doesn't help, either. A frequent enough direct transatlantic flight to somewhere useful/central (so, not New York) and operated by an airline that has better than EasyRyan accomodation onboard for those who want to pay for it, might have seen me use it more

But if there was an overwhelming demand for that in the Bawtry area, an airline would be supplying it. Instead Virgin and Aer Lingus fly from Manchester and, going the other way, Emirates fly from Manchester and Newcastle, and Qatar and Singapore Airlines fly from Manchester.

Airports do need a critical mass, Manchester, Newcastle and LBA have it. The new boys don't. I'd agree that it is unlikely Whittaker will ever have had the intention to spend the megabucks required to move that critical mass to DSA.
 

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