reddragon
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About time we let them know!
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Liz Truss and the Conservative Party.
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About time we let them know!
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RailUK Forums
Soon to be a fifth now she has goneIt feels like after her first Prime Minister’s Questions appearance it’s a good time to draw a line under the previous poll based thread.
So here we are with a new PM (the fourth in six years). How is this likely to play out and is Truss facing the worst outlook for an incoming PM in over 40 years (I don’t know, I’m just throwing it out there)?
You know they won't though. They'll either be convinced/bullied not or or they'll just fall in line when they realise there's not enough of them to make a blind bit of difference. You'd need 80 or so of them to decide enough is enough and actually act. Not just put in some letters, not just say some words on TV, but actually resign the whip, move across the floor or vote in line with the opposition. It simply won't happen.
You simply cannot trust a tory to put country before party. Yes I'm pessimistic but I find it better to lower my expectations rather than constantly hoping the tory party will suddenly grow a spine and face the country.
It is convention that the opposition should take any opportunity to defeat the government. Let’s not forget that at the time, the last time Jeremy Corbyn had led a general election, he made some of the largest gains in vote share against the Conservative party.
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But they don't. Who voted for the Coalition? How many saets for NI in a UK parliamant under PRAs it happens, I think they achieved a lot- government for instance (a bit short just now) and action. It also seemed 'quieter' (IIRC??). But the question of 'mandate' remains- do I recall a referendum that rejected Alternative Vote?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
Least worst? And of course the LIb-Dems were slaughtered in gratitude for 'doing the right thing'.
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2015 United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia
I also recall the multiple indecisive votes in parliament over Lords reform. How many votes until you get the result you want- a bit like the EU- remember Ireland ...
Brendan O'Neill: Asking the Irish to vote again on the Lisbon treaty is arrogant, insulting and undemocratic
Brendan O'Neill: Asking the Irish to vote again on the Lisbon treaty is arrogant, insulting and undemocratic
www.theguardian.com
I'm picturing the voting for 'best PR system'.
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Guido Fawkes is reporting a YouGov poll recording that 32% of Conservative members polled wanted him back if Truss fell from grace (poll taken 17-18 Oct) and that 8 MPs have already supporting his recall (no -one will be surprised that the names include Dorries and Fabricant, but they have a vote like every other MP).
If this comes to pass, we really will be going to hell in a handcart. He was struggling to get a ministerial team together in the end, and I reckon some of them were only in place to keep government running.
https://order-order.com/
They were slaughtered for going against their manifesto on numerous occasions and not shouting about the things they had achieved. And we're not just talking about doing things that were not in their manifesto, we're talking about their MPs being whipped to take an opposite position to their manifesto. There was no reason for that to happen - they could have been allowed a free vote or be whipped to abstain from those votes - but Clegg could only see the here and now, not the damage he was doing to their reputation. There is nothing that says a minor party in a coalition has to support policies introduced by the major party where they go directly against the minor parties position - Clegg could easily have told Cameron that they would have to sit those votes out as they were against what they stood for.
There are definite similarities here with Truss' tenure being brought to an end after a chaotic vote where Tory MPs were being forced to vote against their manifesto and personal beliefs.
brad465
Veteran Member
Johnson is still subject to the Privileges' Committee investigation that could see him get a suspension long enough to face a recall petition, if found guilty on conclusion, expected to be next month.
So Liz Truss goes down as the shortest lived prime minister in history - 44 days, beating the previous record of 119 days (George Canning).
It is evidently clear now that for the greater good of the country, we need a general election immediately. It’s astonishing to think that within the past 20 years, we’ve had 6 (soon to become 7) prime ministers, yet only two* of those came into power through a general election. We really need a system where if a prime minister resigns or becomes incapitated, a GE is called immediately, or failing that an “heir to the PM” is created who immediately takes on the role as soon as such an event happens, avoiding the need for a lengthy leadership contest.
*Tony Blair and David Cameron. Theresa May and Boris Johnson also won a GE but initially came into power through winning a leadership contest.
It is evidently clear now that for the greater good of the country, we need a general election immediately. It’s astonishing to think that within the past 20 years, we’ve had 6 (soon to become 7) prime ministers, yet only two* of those came into power through a general election. We really need a system where if a prime minister resigns or becomes incapitated, a GE is called immediately, or failing that an “heir to the PM” is created who immediately takes on the role as soon as such an event happens, avoiding the need for a lengthy leadership contest.
*Tony Blair and David Cameron. Theresa May and Boris Johnson also won a GE but initially came into power through winning a leadership contest.
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He'll need a 'safe' seat to come back to- i.e. not as the member for Uxbridge. It could be chancey as to whether he would get in again there. However, he is the member for that constituency still at present so I guess it would be as that member he would be barred if that came to pass; could he avoid 'trial' if he resigned ahead of that? What if he resigned and stood elsewhere? How safe is the Mid-Beds seat of the fragrant Ms Dorries, who clapped him out of #10 alongside the current Mrs Johnson on Bozo's resignation as PM. She could stand down to make way for Boris's candidature in the same way as did Reginald Sorenson MP for Leyton who laid down his political life by accepting a peerage to enable Patrick Gordon-Walker to stand, he having being rejected by the electorate of Smethwick.
Perhaps Bozo is awaiting an invitation to become the leader of the Party Party? Whine-and-cheese in the Home Counties; beer and porky pies in the Blue Wall?
and, of course, the Queens passing eat a bit into that so in terms of when she could actually do anything her time with power was even less.
On another tack, looking back at the Truss premiership (all two months of it), the key question really is why? Why were bad decisions seemingly made continuously, one after the other?
What was the actual motivation for Truss and Kwarteng's disastrous budget?
Was it naivety: did they honestly think it would actually produce wealth for the country, without significant side effects? Was it raw ideology? Or something else?
What was the actual motivation for Truss and Kwarteng's disastrous budget?
Was it naivety: did they honestly think it would actually produce wealth for the country, without significant side effects? Was it raw ideology? Or something else?
birchesgreen
Established Member
I'm sick of hearing about Tory party game of thrones and the ridiculous 1922 committee. All i want to hear from the latest PM is them calling a general election.
nlogax
Established Member
Yes.
Strathclyder
Established Member
Arrogance, naivety, raw ideology and just plain ineptitude/incompetence. All of them played their part here.
For many years, people have predicted that the Britannia Unchained gang getting into power would be a disaster for the country.
Liz Truss proved them right in only a matter of days. Of her 44 days in power, she had significant breaks due to the Queen's funeral and party conference season. She still managed to crash the economy, produce u-turn after u-turn and even make Boris look like a competent leader.
Many of the organisations behind the thinking they published together were quick to announce how happy they were that they had their candidate as PM. I suspect they're going to be slightly less loud about how quickly she's been kicked out and their theories have been shown to fall apart on contact with reality.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I'm surprised you even need to ask. The motivation for the budget has been explained on numerous occasions - not least by Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng themselves when they introduced it. All you have to do is check out what they and their supporters were saying, and that will tell you what the motivation for the budget was.
Exactly. It was very clearly naivety based on too much ideology, and a strong dose of convincing themselves that nothing else had worked so they needed to try this. They believed the low taxes would produce wealth for the country, and that the budget combined with the deregulation proposals would somehow magically pay for itself. It was stupid reasoning that could easily be taken to bits by anyone with more expertise/experience/less ideology, but there you go. They apparently didn't want to listen to economic experts. It's almost exactly as stupid and damaging as what many in Labour were arguing for in the days of Corbyn, when the idea was floating around that you could nationalize half the country without any cost and that would magically solve all our economic problems - with the difference that, tragically, Liz Truss actually got into Government and into a position where she could try out her ideas, and (fortunately) Corbyn and his supporters didn't.
What I don't understand is why people on the 'left' constantly feel a need to keep (falsely) making out that it was something somehow more malicious or corrupt - as exemplified by your final three words 'Or something else?'
brad465
Veteran Member
Candidates need 100 MPs to get on the first ballot, so no more than 3 candidates will be able to get the support needed.
This.
Reducing taxes is not necessarily a bad idea but the manner of how this was done (at pace, with little socialisation or checks & balances) killed it stone dead. In particular, there are legitimate reasons to believe that the 45% tax rate is counter-productive (assuming you raise taxes to fund services rather than to acheive "fairness") but to remove it abruptly was extremely naïve.
I think you might be over-interpreting that "or something else?". I read it as an invitation to suggest another explanation which might be a little less awful.
Obviously there is a temptation when faced with a true believer in something as obviously unhinged as the Britannia Unchained manifesto to almost hope that there is a sinister subtext at play. The alternative is to accept that some people really are just that dumb, and that being so is no impediment at all to high office. That's a distressing place for us to be tbh.
In France a lot of stuff would be on fire by now.
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Tentatively agree.
The optics of the budget were all wrong. I’ve made a point about Truss being awkward and weird in this thread because it matters. She has no polish or care in presentation, even less perhaps than her frankly awful predecessor.
GS250
Member
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Stuff that the taxpayer have paid for or the property of ordinary workers. Counter productive but I get your point.
Boris is much brighter and a far more gifted communicator than Liz. Which is not the same thing as him being a suitable PM.....
I despair at the quality of our politicians. In my day job, I get to meet top business leaders (as an advisor in a specialist area). I also (less often) get to meet politicians and the comparison is not a remotely fair fight.... The business leaders grasp stuff VERY quickly and often keep me on my toes in my own area of expertise. By contrast, I went to see one of the leading lights of the Shadow Cabinet not long ago who was, at best, just ordinary: nothing that came out of their mouth was anything other than predictable even though my field is something the individual has an interest in.
adrock1976
Established Member
This is an aspect of candidate selection that I am vehemently opposed to.
Before Boris was Mayor in London, he was MP for Henley on Thames. After he left/got booted out as Mayor of London, he was parachuted in to Uxbridge, somewhere he has never resided.
With progressive federalism (I made a thread a few years ago in this section), candidates would only be eligible to stand in a constituency/ward if they have resided there for a minimum of 5 years. That way, they would have a full understanding of issues affecting the constituency/ward and would strengthen the link between candidate and constituency.
After all, whenever Gorgeous George decides to fall out with the people he is working with on whatever his present vanity project is, his ego could take him to stand as a candidate in a constituency near you. When he fell out with the people he worked with in his hometown of Dundee, his ego landed in the then Glasgow Hillhead, then having fallen out with Blair big time, he ended up in Bethnal Green and Bow having formed Respect (which itself split after Galloway fell out with the international socialists of the Leon Trotsky tradition i.e SWP - there was a Respect and a Respect Renewal). In recent years, his ego landed in Bradford.
Liz Truss is presently MP for a constituency in Norfolk, but her residential address is in Greenwich. When I had geography classes at primary school many years ago, I am absolutely certain that Greenwich is on the south bank of the Thames in London - miles away from the county of Norfolk. I cannot see how Truss can actually represent her constituents if she does not reside in the area at all.
Candidates should be local to the area and not parachuted in.
What concerns me is this statement….
The tory establishment selected their favourites, but the tory members didnt pick their man…
So let Liz run and fail, load it all on her, even the Queens death was on her patch.
They then anoint their chosen one anyway, without any kind of public vote
So basically were looking at a Coup..
Its a pity this approach wasnt taken in 2016, we wouldnt have any of this circus.
Have we ever had a totally unelected PM ever before ?
I see the EU is just absolutely loving this show, I bet the toilet cubicles are full of politicians laughing in hysterics.
No one anywhere in the world will take the UK government seriously until there is a general election… we are a basket case laughing stock, politically, economically and financially…
No one is ever going to forget this period in British history.
I doubt even Just Eat will take orders from downing street as they wont be sure whoever ordered it will still be there to recieve it.
The tory establishment selected their favourites, but the tory members didnt pick their man…
So let Liz run and fail, load it all on her, even the Queens death was on her patch.
They then anoint their chosen one anyway, without any kind of public vote
So basically were looking at a Coup..
Its a pity this approach wasnt taken in 2016, we wouldnt have any of this circus.
Have we ever had a totally unelected PM ever before ?
I see the EU is just absolutely loving this show, I bet the toilet cubicles are full of politicians laughing in hysterics.
No one anywhere in the world will take the UK government seriously until there is a general election… we are a basket case laughing stock, politically, economically and financially…
No one is ever going to forget this period in British history.
I doubt even Just Eat will take orders from downing street as they wont be sure whoever ordered it will still be there to recieve it.
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Theresa May, in, checks notes, 2016, was appointed PM with no kind of public vote.
Furthermore, until 1998, Conservative Party members had no say in the leadership, only elected MPs. And they only got to vote on it from 1965 - before that the leadership was a matter for the party elders.
She was, however, an MP at the time.
Also worth noting, we don't have direct elections for PM anyway.
As was James Callaghan and Gordon Brown, both of whom lost the fist general election they fought as party leader.
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