Liz Truss and the Conservative Party.

[GS250]

The MPs didn't vote for her. The members did. And that should never happen again; Conservative party members, in the aggregate, are myopic, inward-looking and self-serving and completely detached from what the wider electorate might want.

Some are that way. But I don't think they would be stupid enough not to be able to gauge the probable public reaction to Truss? Then again, a fair section of Labour's London based membership couldn't see why provincial voters would reject old JC, so you may be onto something here.

Saying that though, the members wanted Mordaunt head and shoulders above anyone else. They certainly didn't want Sunak although dare I say another couple of weeks and he would have probably edged the vote. There is actually a fairly big disconnect between the membership and the MP's.

There's plenty of decent people amongst both Labour and Tory members. The few who work with me are actually everything the stereotype isn't.

 

[BrianW]

Wouldn't surprise me either: tomorrow's newspaper front pages in about two hours time will make very interesting reading, particularly in the majority right wing press. She might even have resigned before then.

Morduant is no political ingenue. Why did she pointedly say Truss was not hiding under a desk? Seems to me to be indicating disrespect, if not contempt, for the temporary P.M.

The 'not under the desk' observation was, I think, a response to a quip made 'from a sedentary position'. If quicker the fridge may well have featured as a location, building on the experience of the previous temporary PM, where the party's cheese and pork pies must surely have resided.

 

[jon0844]

If Ukraine wasn't being attacked left, right and centre by drone strikes, I have no doubt Liz would be on a plane there right now.

It's probably marginally safer for here right now.

 

[AM9]

I wonder if we are seeing the decline of populism in UK politics with the removal of the latest 55 Tufton St approved PM.

 

[Lost property]

Long range weather forecasts are notoriously difficult to predict, there again, so are same day forecasts to judge from some of the Met Offices "inspired guesses " at times, but, thankfully we now know the Spring / Summer / Autumn and Winter 2023 will be warm, pleasant and maybe even sub tropical. How do we know this ?.....well Mr Hunt has predicted as much.

What other reason(s) could there be for his decision ??

Average energy bill forecast to hit £4,347 after Truss U-turn on support

Move to reduce duration of help from two years to six months could mean financial cliff edge for millions in April, charities warn

www.theguardian.com

 

[MikeWM]

Saying that though, the members wanted Mordaunt head and shoulders above anyone else. They certainly didn't want Sunak although dare I say another couple of weeks and he would have probably edged the vote. There is actually a fairly big disconnect between the membership and the MP's.

After the first week or so (when Mordaunt came from nowhere, became hot favourite, and then rapidly faded away again) the membership actually wanted Badenoch, at least according to the polls. Whether that helps your point or not I'm not sure

It was quite clearly Badenoch > Mordaunt > Truss > Sunak from the final four. The membership may well feel understandably irritated that they didn't get either of their 'top 2', and even more annoyed at being blamed for 'picking the wrong candidate' when they didn't get the chance to vote for the candidates they wanted in the first place.

--

What other reason(s) could there be for his decision ??

Average energy bill forecast to hit £4,347 after Truss U-turn on support

Move to reduce duration of help from two years to six months could mean financial cliff edge for millions in April, charities warn

www.theguardian.com

I must say how terribly exciting it is to see 'average energy bills forecast to hit <some large amount>' stories again, I'd really missed those the last few weeks

 

[DC1989]

It's clear the both the memberships of Labour and the Conservatives veer to the 'extremes' (For want of a better word). Probably because most floating voters, indeed most voters in general, aren't members of a party

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2022 ==

After the first week or so (when Mordaunt came from nowhere, became hot favourite, and then rapidly faded away again) the membership actually wanted Badenoch, at least according to the polls. Whether that helps your point or not I'm not sure

Badenoch is more libertarian than Truss isn't she? Although she's young and unexperienced enough to pivot away from that now and pretend she never was (as I suspect many of the libertarian wing of that party will do now)

 

[theblackwatch]

The MPs didn't vote for her. The members did. And that should never happen again; Conservative party members, in the aggregate, are myopic, inward-looking and self-serving and completely detached from what the wider electorate might want.

I'm wondering if all those Conservative members who did vote for Liz Truss now regret their decision to do so, or still think it was the correct one? (Anyone on here who did, feel free to answer....)

 

[MikeWM]

Badenoch is more libertarian than Truss isn't she? Although she's young and unexperienced enough to pivot away from that now and pretend she never was (as I suspect many of the libertarian wing of that party will do now)

I think so - Badenoch was the only candidate in the leadership election to say the online 'safety' bill should be scrapped, for example (which it very much should be, although if we end up with a Labour government we'll end up with an even more authoritarian version of it).

For the sake of those of us that think government should be concentrating on the things that matter, rather than trying to micro-manage every single part of our lives, I hope some people stick to their principles. Though I'm not sure how that is going to happen now with the Tories.

 

[Lost property]

I think so - Badenoch was the only candidate in the leadership election to say the online 'safety' bill should be scrapped, for example (which it very much should be, although if we end up with a Labour government we'll end up with an even more authoritarian version of it).

For the sake of those of us that think government should be concentrating on the things that matter, rather than trying to micro-manage every single part of our lives, I hope some people stick to their principles. Though I'm not sure how that is going to happen now with the Tories.

First, " average energy bills " ..given the neat bit of mis-selling (as in "price cap " which implied no more than, which is not the case, obviously) average energy bills are of great interest given the projections came from an organisation that has been remarkably accurate so far. Of course, if you have no concerns about costs of living, in addition to fuel costs, then it's understandable as to why such projections are of no interest.

They do, however, hold a very deep interest for us lesser beings such as myself, and probably several million others.

When it comes to authoritarian Gov't, relax. The current, for now, Gov't has already embarked on this stance and with more to come.

Also, apart from being an oxymoron, reading the word "principles " with reference to this Gov't has to be a first. Have you any evidence please to confirm they have any, or morals, for that matter.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...l-not-law-order-state-control-erosion-freedom

 

[MikeWM]

First, " average energy bills " ..given the neat bit of mis-selling (as in "price cap " which implied no more than, which is not the case, obviously) average energy bills are of great interest given the projections came from an organisation that has been remarkably accurate so far. Of course, if you have no concerns about costs of living, in addition to fuel costs, then it's understandable as to why such projections are of no interest.

They do, however, hold a very deep interest for us lesser beings such as myself, and probably several million others.

My point was rather more about the stories than about the price 'cap' itself; obviously the latter is of importance to everyone.

The *stories* however, got entirely ridiculous over the course of August, when they seemed to go up £1,000 or more each week, with increasingly little basis in reality.

At this point we've no idea what the numbers will be come April. There's little point in speculating right now, especially by giving oddly precise amounts such as 4,347.

When it comes to authoritarian Gov't, relax. The current, for now, Gov't has already embarked on this stance and with more to come.

Also, apart from being an oxymoron, reading the word "principles " with reference to this Gov't has to be a first.

I'm under no illusions whatever that this *government* is libertarian (or indeed have 'principles') - they were directly responsible for the greatest violation of liberties in living memory in a useless attempt to 'control' a fairly minor respiratory virus, so it would be crazy to have any pretence over that.

That doesn't mean some MPs in the party don't have the right attitude. David Davis for example is usually on the right side of such issues.

There is also the problem that there is no evidence that Starmer's Labour is any better, indeed as I pointed out, they want an even more authoritarian approach to what can be said on the internet.

 

[AM9]

First, " average energy bills " ..given the neat bit of mis-selling (as in "price cap " which implied no more than, which is not the case, obviously) average energy bills are of great interest given the projections came from an organisation that has been remarkably accurate so far. Of course, if you have no concerns about costs of living, in addition to fuel costs, then it's understandable as to why such projections are of no interest.

They do, however, hold a very deep interest for us lesser beings such as myself, and probably several million others.

"Average energy bills" was a term introduced during the Johnson administration well before Truss, - hers has just perpetuated the worthless figures instead of attempting to help the lay householder understand that their energy costs are directly proportional to their consumption.

 

[Sorcerer]

The MPs didn't vote for her. The members did. And that should never happen again; Conservative party members, in the aggregate, are myopic, inward-looking and self-serving and completely detached from what the wider electorate might want.

The fact that after merely six weeks of electing Liz Truss that they want her gone and Boris Johnson is topping the list to replace her speaks volumes about how truly out of touch they are as people and how short-termed their memories are too, because Liz Truss is very much the legacy of Boris Johnson's tenure. People like them made me start to realise why Socrates wasn't really a huge fan of democracy.

 

[nw1]

It's clear the both the memberships of Labour and the Conservatives veer to the 'extremes' (For want of a better word). Probably because most floating voters, indeed most voters in general, aren't members of a party

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2022 ==


Badenoch is more libertarian than Truss isn't she? Although she's young and unexperienced enough to pivot away from that now and pretend she never was (as I suspect many of the libertarian wing of that party will do now)

Wasn't the Wolf rabbiting on about "wokeness" or something?

If so, she sounds like a faux-libertarian. You can have liberty, as long as you're not an evil woke person. It would be interesting to hear her take on, for example, left-wing mass protests. Would she support them or would she clamp down on them?

Does she support the restoration of freedom of movement? That is an acid test of true libertarianism as far as I'm concerned. The answer is almost certainly "No", therefore she is not, as far as I'm concerned, a libertarian.

I'm afraid I don't trust any of these right-wingers who claim to be libertarian. Libertarian for certain groups of people, maybe, but certainly not all.

 

[GS250]

It was quite clearly Badenoch > Mordaunt > Truss > Sunak from the final four. The membership may well feel understandably irritated that they didn't get either of their 'top 2', and even more annoyed at being blamed for 'picking the wrong candidate' when they didn't get the chance to vote for the candidates they wanted in the first place.

Interesting. A Tory member and councillor at work (who utterly goes against the stereotype) seemed sure Mordaunt was their woman. Maybe Badenoch was the idealistic choice but Mordaunt the most likely to actually get in?

I think so - Badenoch was the only candidate in the leadership election to say the online 'safety' bill should be scrapped, for example (which it very much should be, although if we end up with a Labour government we'll end up with an even more authoritarian version of it).

I think this really is going to be the only real difference between the Conservatives and Labour if they replace Truss for a slightly softer Tory. Its barely left v right. It will be more along the lines of libertarian v authoritarian.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2022 ==

Does she support the restoration of freedom of movement? That is an acid test of true libertarianism as far as I'm concerned. The answer is almost certainly "No", therefore she is not, as far as I'm concerned, a libertarian.

Its actually a fair point. FOM as far as the EU goes is hardly a 'socialist' policy at all.

However, would you yourself actually support the freedom for ANY citizen in the World to live and work in any country without needing a visa etc?

 

[nw1]

Its actually a fair point. FOM as far as the EU goes is hardly a 'socialist' policy at all.

However, would you yourself actually support the freedom for ANY citizen in the World to live and work in any country without needing a visa etc?

I don't want to get dragged into a Brexit argument here but my point was, we formerly had FOM to the EU, and it was taken away from us by the Tories. This, to my mind, was an authoritarian violation of rights we formerly had.

I wasn't commenting as to whether it was socialist or not, but more, that restrictions on FoM are anti-liberty.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If so, she sounds like a faux-libertarian. You can have liberty, as long as you're not an evil woke person.

Can you cite something that Badenoch has said that justifies that interpretation of her beliefs. Or is it just something that you've made up?

It would be interesting to hear her take on, for example, left-wing mass protests. Would she support them or would she clamp down on them?

I'm pretty sure that Badenoch supports free speech. As I'm sure you are well aware really, the issue is not whether protests are left wing or right wing, it's the extent to which protesters should be allowed to commit acts of vandalism, deliberately damage property and prevent other people from going about their lives. In my experience, most people on the right believe, as I do, that the right to demonstrate does not include the right to harm others. The impression I have is that quite few people on the left seem to imagine that it's OK for demonstrators to harm others, as long as it's a good left-wing cause they are demonstrating for.

Does she support the restoration of freedom of movement? That is an acid test of true libertarianism as far as I'm concerned. The answer is almost certainly "No", therefore she is not, as far as I'm concerned, a libertarian.

Would you support freedom for anyone living anywhere in the World - say, South Africa, Russia, Colombia, the USA, India, as well as every other country, to come to the UK right now without any restriction? And if you don't then are you truly a libertarian?

 

[MikeWM]

Interesting. A Tory member and councillor at work (who utterly goes against the stereotype) seemed sure Mordaunt was their woman. Maybe Badenoch was the idealistic choice but Mordaunt the most likely to actually get in?

*If* you believe the polls done by ConservativeHome, Mordaunt was ahead at first

https://conservativehome.com/2022/0...och-by-under-ten-votes-in-over-eight-hundred/

but a few days later Badenoch was well ahead

https://conservativehome.com/2022/0...are-bunched-together-second-third-and-fourth/

and easily would have won the 'final two' against any of the others

https://conservativehome.com/2022/0...-sunak-third-mordaunt-fourth-tugendhat-fifth/

But two days later she was eliminated by the MPs (and Mordaunt immediately afterwards).


As far as I could tell, the members liked Mordaunt because she seemed impressive and fairly unknown, but quickly went off her when they learnt more about her, apparently in particular because (a) she seemed to hold rather muddled views on 'culture war' issues, and (b) she wrote a fairly vacuous book, with a foreword written by Bill Gates and enthusiastically reviewed by Tony Blair, where she espoused many platitudes but very few ideas, and the ideas she did espouse didn't seem very good (eg. she seemed very in favour of on-line censorship).

I think this really is going to be the only real difference between the Conservatives and Labour if they replace Truss for a slightly softer Tory. Its barely left v right. It will be more along the lines of libertarian v authoritarian.

Yes, but the problem for someone like myself is working out which is which - ie. which will be less bad, I don't expect either of them to be 'good' in this respect.

For example, we know Jeremy Hunt's approach over the last few years was go for zero-Covid, that the Chinese approach was/is great, take people out of their homes and put them into quarantine camps. That's probably worse than Starmer would have done, and I find the idea of what Starmer would have done terrifying enough! (Though I won't be voting Tory or Labour at the next GE, so I suppose the point is moot).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

For example, we know Jeremy Hunt's approach over the last few years was go for zero-Covid, that the Chinese approach was/is great, take people out of their homes and put them into quarantine camps.

Is Jeremy Hunt actually on record as having said that people should've been put into quarantine camps? I'm going to guess, that, no, he hasn't said anything remotely like that. If you can prove me wrong, please do so.

 

[Lost property]

Given her body language and movements, I suspect Mordaunt has more than a certain Freudian appeal for many male voters..

 

[MikeWM]

Is Jeremy Hunt actually on record as having said that people should've been put into quarantine camps? I'm going to guess, that, no, he hasn't said anything remotely like that. If you can prove me wrong, please do so.

It was Nadine Dorries (yes, I know) that said he said it - but he hasn't denied it (as far as I know - I'm happy to be corrected on that), and it fits with some of the other statements he has made that *are* on record (eg. saying how wonderful it was that the Chinese enforced quarantine on his sister by sealing the door to her flat and putting a police car outside to make sure she didn't leave, or that we shouldn't remove any restrictions until infections were below 1,000 a day).

 

[reddragon]

Has anyone seen the various short documentaries linking Liz Truss & Kwasi etc, much of the cabinet to Oligarchs?

https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1577583546524385280?s=20&t=HfnE3GD29Zbh2V1z91giIw

She was groomed by dark-money lobby groups working for Big Tobacco, Big Oil and foreign oligarchs. Now Liz Truss is in office and trashing this country on their behalf.

Do we have a government who are double agents for a foreign power, stuff of Bond movies, Spooks and such like? Imagine if this turns out to be true? Russian revenge? This is clearly beyond simple dodgy

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Has anyone seen the various short documentaries linking Liz Truss & Kwasi etc, much of the cabinet to Oligarchs?

https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1577583546524385280?s=20&t=HfnE3GD29Zbh2V1z91giIw

Do we have a government who are double agents for a foreign power, stuff of Bond movies, Spooks and such like? Imagine if this turns out to be true? Russian revenge? This is clearly beyond simple dodgy

Might I suggest you get away from the Trumpian conspiracy theories and try reading some actual proper news sources instead? BBC News would be a good start.

 

[reddragon]

Might I suggest you get away from the Trumpian conspiracy theories and try reading some actual proper news sources instead? BBC News would be a good start.

That is the Guardian so main stream

 

[GS250]

Given her body language and movements, I suspect Mordaunt has more than a certain Freudian appeal for many male voters..

You are right. Definitely has that seductress aura about her.

My mum always quite liked Matt Hancock in that respect. Think she watched the covid briefings for him alone.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That is the Guardian so main stream

Err no. The link you posted is to a Tweet of a video that claims to be by Double Down News. I don't see any reference to having been published by the Guardian on it. The reliability of Double Down News can perhaps be judged by that their home page currently contains a story headlined 'Jeremy Corbyn DESTROYS The Establishment'

 

[reddragon]

Err no. The link you posted is to a Tweet of a video that claims to be by Double Down News. I don't see any reference to having been published by the Guardian on it. The reliability of Double Down News can perhaps be judged by that their home page currently contains a story headlined 'Jeremy Corbyn DESTROYS The Establishment'

Columnist of The Guardian

Contributors | The Guardian

Latest Contributors news, comment and analysis from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

www.theguardian.com

I’m part of the ‘anti-growth coalition’ Liz Truss loves to hate – and I’m proud of it | George Monbiot

The PM’s vision of growth is part of the class war that is transferring power from Britain’s poorest people to its richest, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

I’m part of the ‘anti-growth coalition’ Liz Truss loves to hate – and I’m proud of it​

George Monbiot

1st person on the list

 

[Gloster]

Do we have a government who are double agents for a foreign power, stuff of Bond movies, Spooks and such like? Imagine if this turns out to be true? Russian revenge? This is clearly beyond simple dodgy

It is becoming like one of those second-rate 1980s spy thrillers where an agent of a foreign power (read the USSR) climbs up the greasy political pole and makes it to PM, or maybe a maverick agent stops them. It is helped by the fact that Truss has left-wing parents and she has gradually moved across. In answer to the obvious objection that surely they would have chosen someone a bit more competent: well, if they have to choose a malleable teenager, they can’t be sure that s/he will turn out to be sufficiently on the ball twenty plus years later. So who is she working for?

All complete and utter off the top of my head weirdness, but I bet there is a conspiracy theory like this floating about.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Columnist of The Guardian

Contributors | The Guardian

Latest Contributors news, comment and analysis from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

www.theguardian.com

I’m part of the ‘anti-growth coalition’ Liz Truss loves to hate – and I’m proud of it | George Monbiot

The PM’s vision of growth is part of the class war that is transferring power from Britain’s poorest people to its richest, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

1st person on the list

So if he's a Guardian columnist, and the story you originally claimed - that Liz Truss 'was groomed by dark-money lobby groups' and is (implied: deliberately) 'trashing this country on their behalf' is remotely true or reliable, how come the Guardian didn't publish that story? (Note that the Guardian comment you have now linked to makes no reference to any claim like that).

 

[JamesT]

Columnist of The Guardian

Contributors | The Guardian

Latest Contributors news, comment and analysis from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

www.theguardian.com

I’m part of the ‘anti-growth coalition’ Liz Truss loves to hate – and I’m proud of it | George Monbiot

The PM’s vision of growth is part of the class war that is transferring power from Britain’s poorest people to its richest, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

1st person on the list

Yes, George Monbiot writes columns for the Guardian. But he's almost certainly not an employee of theirs and is free to produce content for other organisations, who will have different standards on what they'll include. What he writes for other outlets isn't necessarily endorsed by the Guardian.