How does route knowledge work for stations?

[jfowkes]

Just out of curiousity: Drivers have to retain route knowledge for diversions, how does it work for stations?
Say a route would normally use platforms 3 and 4 at a station, but could be diverted into 1, 2, 5 or 6 if required. Do drivers need to sign all these platforms same as they would for routes?

 

[jfollows]

Just out of curiousity: Drivers have to retain route knowledge for diversions, how does it work for stations?
Say a route would normally use platforms 3 and 4 at a station, but could be diverted into 1, 2, 5 or 6 if required. Do drivers need to sign all these platforms same as they would for routes?

I believe, and I'm not a driver at all, if you sign a route then implicitly you understand all the possible routes and platforms and their ramifications. So if you're driving a Manchester-Chester train and you're routed into platform 0 at Stockport you would stop at the signal and not take the route without other input (because you can't get to the Chester line from platform 0 at Stockport).
EDIT Plus understand that the theatre indicator at Stockport Number 2's signal 111 which controls the route off the up slow into the station will display "M" for platform 0 (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-route-indicators.203998/page-2#post-4566473). As a driver you'd be expected to know all this if you "sign" Stockport.

 

[Seehof]

When I did my routes, complex stations were done by having a local manager showing and explaining the area. In addition Newcastle was done by taking an empty train and doing a loop!
If when out driving you are not sure of a route stop and query it. I am not ashamed to say that I have done that at least once and the signallers have always been most helpful. Can be fun if you are driving an empty train as you can be put in goods loops!

 

[SargeNpton]

One of my, sadly now deceased, friends was a driver trainer on the WCML in the 1980s and early 1990s. He reckoned that between Primrose Hill Tunnels and the platforms at Euston there were something like 94 different potential routeings.

All drivers had to be aware of all of them to sign the route

 

[Watershed]

Generally, when drivers 'sign' the route through/to/from a station, they will sign all platforms and lines. This includes the meaning of each of the theatre box indications and position indicators ("feathers"), which lines/platforms they can and can't accept, linespeeds, platform lengths etc. They will also usually receive a briefing on the shunt moves that can be undertaken around the station, and carry diagrams they can refer to (or they can call the signaller on the GSM-R phone).

However, at complex locations drivers will sometimes only learn part of the layout, usually just to speed up the training process - but sometimes it's also because they would never use a certain part of the station. For instance, this could be because it's unelectrified and they only drive electric traction, or the platforms are too short, or the traction they sign isn't cleared into certain parts of the station.

As an example, not all drivers that sign London Bridge sign all of the lines/platforms. EMR drivers will sign the 'high level' platforms at St Pancras but not the 'low level' ones. It's similar to how drivers who only drive freight trains or <75mph stock will often not learn the exact speed restrictions above 75mph, so they might need additional training if they move depots or start to sign higher speed stock.

 

[O L Leigh]

It’s not always the case, though.

A route is broken into sections, each with its own code. So it’s not always the case that you’ll learn all moves through all platforms. Nuneaton is one such example, where drivers may sign the flyover and P6/7 but not the Trent and it’s associated lines and platforms.

 

[driver9000]

Generally I sign all platforms at stations I work through and their associated routings and shunts including those we don't routinely call at with the exception of Manchester Piccadilly where I only sign 13/14.

 

[TheEdge]

Stratford London is a mess of routes, I worked it all out and there are well over 100 different routes and indications between Maryland and Bow Junction, I technically sign almost all of it but I doubt I'll ever see them all. In that case a few specific traps and purposefully pointed out but most of it is just taken as a single massive signing.

 

[LAX54]

When I did my routes, complex stations were done by having a local manager showing and explaining the area. In addition Newcastle was done by taking an empty train and doing a loop!
If when out driving you are not sure of a route stop and query it. I am not ashamed to say that I have done that at least once and the signallers have always been most helpful. Can be fun if you are driving an empty train as you can be put in goods loops!

Ipswich on the GEML, the G.E services shunt to the UDGL and reverse, once in a blue moon there will be a FL on the goods for a variety of reasons, so the Signaller will run the G.E to a reception road, a route that is not normally signed by Passenger drivers, when they see the signal they will call up on the GSMR ( and before that CSR) and the Signaller would talk them through the move, staying on the line during the move if requested

 

[Ashley Hill]

Are Reading drivers and guards expected to know all platforms at Basingstoke or just P5?

 

[6Gman]

Generally, when drivers 'sign' the route through/to/from a station, they will sign all platforms and lines. This includes the meaning of each of the theatre box indications and position indicators ("feathers"), which lines/platforms they can and can't accept, linespeeds, platform lengths etc. They will also usually receive a briefing on the shunt moves that can be undertaken around the station, and carry diagrams they can refer to (or they can call the signaller on the GSM-R phone).

However, at complex locations drivers will sometimes only learn part of the layout, usually just to speed up the training process - but sometimes it's also because they would never use a certain part of the station. For instance, this could be because it's unelectrified and they only drive electric traction, or the platforms are too short, or the traction they sign isn't cleared into certain parts of the station.

As an example, not all drivers that sign London Bridge sign all of the lines/platforms. EMR drivers will sign the 'high level' platforms at St Pancras but not the 'low level' ones. It's similar to how drivers who only drive freight trains or <75mph stock will often not learn the exact speed restrictions above 75mph, so they might need additional training if they move depots or start to sign higher speed stock.

I had assumed that knowing a station meant knowing all relevant routes/platforms until I went to catch a Cardiff - North Wales via Crewe (engineering diversion) at Crewe. It was signalled into 12 and the incoming driver refused to take the route and sat at the relevant signal. The route was cancelled, reset to take him into 7 where he was relieved. The relieving driver then took us south , reversed opposite the carriage shed and took us back through the station on the Down Through (past 12 of course).

Interesting but not sure the "normal" passengers appreciated it much.

 

[AndrewE]

(an old railwayman writes...)
When I started at Crewe COM in 1976 one of my older colleagues was a man who had been a steam fireman on the footplate out of Stockport Tiviot Dale shed (I believe.)
He said that in those days all sorts of freight locos and crews were put on excursion trains... One day he was rostered on a special to Backpool and his driver approached Preston from the south and slowed to a stand as he got to the platform. As he got down he said to my mate "Watch that gantry [at the departure end] and if any signal comes off, creep forward until you get to me, I shall have found if it is for us by then!"

 

[jfowkes]

As an example, not all drivers that sign London Bridge sign all of the lines/platforms. EMR drivers will sign the 'high level' platforms at St Pancras but not the 'low level' ones.

That makes sense - I assume that operationally, St Pancras is basically three different stations (Thameslink, High Level, HS1) that all just happen to be close to each other.

 

[ComUtoR]

There are a few stations where I don't sign all the platforms.

 

[Ken H]

Do Skipton drivers sign all of Leeds? Most of the time they will use the low numbered bays. Occasionally they may use a through platform when their train is going to or from Neville Hill. But do they need to sign the high numbered bays, 7, the and through lines? And do they sign all of Carlisle stn. I bet they don't sign the north facing bays!

 

[godfreycomplex]

Are Reading drivers and guards expected to know all platforms at Basingstoke or just P5?

They certainly sign 4 but I’m not sure about 1-3

 

[dk1]

Until a few years ago we never went into anything else but 5 & 6 at Cambridge. Platform 4 was very very occasional maybe once every couple of years & 7 & 8 where not even built. The couple of occasions I was asked to go onto the through road & into 1 always had the signaller ask if I was happy or needed talking through the move.

 

[zwk500]

There are a few stations where I don't sign all the platforms.

Out of interest, are details like this noted down on whichever system is used to monitor route knowledge or would the wider context of the route give that information anyway?

 

[D6130]

Do Skipton drivers sign all of Leeds? Most of the time they will use the low numbered bays. Occasionally they may use a through platform when their train is going to or from Neville Hill. But do they need to sign the high numbered bays, 7, the and through lines? And do they sign all of Carlisle stn. I bet they don't sign the north facing bays!

When I was a Skipton driver (1992-2012), we signed all of Carlisle and Leeds stations through to the 'home' signals and crossover shunts at the North end of Carlisle and East end of Leeds. However, we rarely used them and on the one occasion I had to start a Morecambe train from platform 7 (!) at Leeds and had to shunt a ScotRail 156 from platform 7 to platform 5 at Carlisle, I asked the signallers concerned to talk me through the appropriate moves....which they were happy to do. Incidentally, for a couple of years in the mid-to-late 1990s, many Skipton link 1 drivers and trainmen signed Carlisle New Yard in order to run-around the empty Drax gypsum trains prior to the installation of the new signalbox and crossover at Kirkby Thore.

 

[ComUtoR]

Out of interest, are details like this noted down on whichever system is used to monitor route knowledge or would the wider context of the route give that information anyway?

Only two codes on my counterfoil are platform specific but that I wouldn't include as its more a split station (Like St Pancras) so very much the wider context. Some in that the platform only has a specific route that I don't sign. They may also be traction limited or have some kind of local instruction. We also have a situation where you sign the signals on one end of a platform but not the other as that station forms the part of the route where it divides. We only come in from one end so only ever see a Red. With stations that have lines of route that overlap or split a station I would also consider those as not being signed.

We have routes that have a 4 track layout all going to the same place that have separate route codes for pairs of lines !

 

[zwk500]

Only two codes on my counterfoil are platform specific but that I wouldn't include as its more a split station (Like St Pancras) so very much the wider context. Some in that the platform only has a specific route that I don't sign. They may also be traction limited or have some kind of local instruction. We also have a situation where you sign the signals on one end of a platform but not the other as that station forms the part of the route where it divides. We only come in from one end so only ever see a Red. With stations that have lines of route that overlap or split a station I would also consider those as not being signed.

We have routes that have a 4 track layout all going to the same place that have separate route codes for pairs of lines !

Very interesting, thanks!

 

[ComUtoR]

Just checked every route code at my TOC and found another code that is platform specific. Amazing what you find when you go digging

 

[LowLevel]

Occasionally things do happen that will throw you. For example EMR trains can be chucked into any south facing platforms at Crewe, and very occasionally are, even though they usually only go into 2, 3 or 4 bays.

We also only work 1 booked train a day into the main train shed at Manchester Piccadilly (more on Sundays), but it's used fairly frequently for short notice turn backs or engineering blockages. Other TOCs only sign either "The Junction" (13/14) or the train shed.

If I learn a route I just learn everything about it, it's easier than worrying about what is or isn't applicable.

 

[skyhigh]

When I was a Skipton driver (1992-2012), we signed all of Carlisle and Leeds stations through to the 'home' signals and crossover shunts at the North end of Carlisle and East end of Leeds. However, we rarely used them and on the one occasion I had to start a Morecambe train from platform 7 (!) at Leeds and had to shunt a ScotRail 156 from platform 7 to platform 5 at Carlisle, I asked the signallers concerned to talk me through the appropriate moves....which they were happy to do. Incidentally, for a couple of years in the mid-to-late 1990s, many Skipton link 1 drivers and trainmen signed Carlisle New Yard in order to run-around the empty Drax gypsum trains prior to the installation of the new signalbox and crossover at Kirkby Thore.

Skipton drivers no longer shunt at Leeds, so effectively they no longer sign platforms 7 and 14 or anywhere past the signal at the East end of the platforms at Leeds now.

But do they need to sign the high numbered bays, 7, the and through lines?

You can get onto the Triangle from any platform other than 7 or 14, so they need to sign every other platform, even if they rarely use them.

 

[Magdalia]

Until a few years ago we never went into anything else but 5 & 6 at Cambridge. Platform 4 was very very occasional maybe once every couple of years & 7 & 8 where not even built. The couple of occasions I was asked to go onto the through road & into 1 always had the signaller ask if I was happy or needed talking through the move.

If I recall correctly, when platforms 7 and 8 at Cambridge first came into use the last train in from and out to Ipswich was booked into one or other of platforms 7 and 8 for route knowledge purposes. Does that still happen?

 

[dk1]

If I recall correctly, when platforms 7 and 8 at Cambridge first came into use the last train in from and out to Ipswich was booked into one or other of platforms 7 and 8 for route knowledge purposes. Does that still happen?

Without checking RTT I'm not sure. My depot wouldn't sign the Newmarket route.

 

[Watershed]

Out of interest, are details like this noted down on whichever system is used to monitor route knowledge or would the wider context of the route give that information anyway?

Generally not, though it depends on the TOC and what rostering/planning system they use. But this is exactly the sort of issue that can lead to traincrew being allocated to routes they don't sign...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd be surprised if TPE crews sign platform 2 at Huddersfield, as it's only accessible from Lockwood and is also too short for any TPE stock.

 

[dk1]

You cannot usually let odd platforms worry you too much as a driver. You could say the same for certain sidings especially at depots. You may not use them for years at a time. If unsure just speak to the signaller.

 

[plugwash]

Generally I sign all platforms at stations I work through and their associated routings and shunts including those we don't routinely call at with the exception of Manchester Piccadilly where I only sign 13/14.

I find that surprising. I'd have thought they would have wanted to maintain the ability to terminate a failing train in the main shed.