LNER unreliability caused by staff shortages

[DanNCL]

LNER appear to be the latest TOC suffering from a string of issues blamed on 'a short notice change to the timetable'.

Today (6/9) the following LNER services have all been cancelled:
1Y14 0600 Berwick - Kings Cross
1A04 0605 Leeds - Kings Cross
1Y80 0708 Middlesbrough - Kings Cross
1N81 0906 Kings Cross - York
1E09 0930 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1S13 1100 Kings Cross - Edinburgh
1Y84 1202 York - Kings Cross
1W22 1500 Kings Cross - Stirling
1N23 1525 Kings Cross - Middlesbrough
1E23 1630 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1N29 1818 Kings Cross - Newcastle
1D29 1903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1N35 2200 Kings Cross - Newcastle

And the following services are all starting or terminating short:
1E03 0526 Stirling - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1W02 0708 Leeds - Aberdeen terminating at Edinburgh
1E13 0755 Inverness - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1E25 1452 Aberdeen - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1E20 1500 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle

For an operator that supposedly had a surplus of staff following recruitment for a timetable uplift that never happened, this is poor. It's also a joke that LNER are calling this a good service. Are LNER staff now on work to rule? Are the 80xs suffering from poor availability again? Is it a combination of both?

Whilst I'm on the subject of issues at LNER, there's still an issue with impartiality at Newcastle station, with LNER staff regularly refusing to help customers of other TOCs. It won't help that TPE keep expecting LNER to clear up the mess when everything to/from Chester-le-Street is cancelled, but LNER as the managing TOC of Newcastle station have a duty to be impartial when serving customers at the station, and this keeps being ignored. There are multiple reports of this on the forum, I'm also aware of many other incidents at Newcastle station. Do other LNER stations have this issue too?

I really hope this isn't a sign that LNER may be about to go the same way as Avanti and TPE!

 

[dan4291]

Are they all crewed by Newcastle based crews? Sounds like it looking at the list of cancellations, so could well be staff sickness or even working to rule.

As for LNER station staff, generally they'll just look after their own in times of disruption (sometimes not very well!) and palm everyone else off to sort themselves out. Seen it at Kings Cross a lot, not at Newcastle so much but it wouldn't surprise me.

I should say though that there are some really good LNER station staff who are not like this, and who will go out the way and help anyone regardless of which company they've been affected by, but unfortunately they seem few and far between.

 

[greyman42]

I should say though that there are some really good LNER station staff who are not like this, and who will go out the way and help anyone regardless of which company they've been affected by, but unfortunately they seem few and far between.

Why would staff care which TOC a passenger is using? They get paid the same regardless of which passengers they assist and if they don't like helping people then they are in the wrong job.

 

[bramling]

Why would staff care which TOC a passenger is using? They get paid the same regardless of which passengers they assist and if they don't like helping people then they are in the wrong job.

Less likelihood of comeback when another operator is involved?

 

[greyman42]

Less likelihood of comeback when another operator is involved?

If that is the reason then it is a terrible attitude and they are in the wrong job.

 

[43066]

Whilst I'm on the subject of issues at LNER, there's still an issue with impartiality at Newcastle station, with LNER staff regularly refusing to help customers of other TOCs. It won't help that TPE keep expecting LNER to clear up the mess when everything to/from Chester-le-Street is cancelled, but LNER as the managing TOC of Newcastle station have a duty to be impartial when serving customers at the station, and this keeps being ignored. There are multiple reports of this on the forum, I'm also aware of many other incidents at Newcastle station. Do other LNER stations have this issue too?

Where is this duty enshrined, please?

And do you have any evidence of LNER staff “regularly refusing help customers of other TOCs”, other than your own anecdotes?

 

[kez19]

I’m keeping an eye on this as I’m due to travel next week, I’m only concerned as to what I should do in certain situations,

I have a train booked (1610 from Dundee), 1452 from Aberdeen this week it’s been cancelled from Aberdeen but resuming Edinburgh however replacement coaches are on (so far from their site Aberdeen/Edinburgh).

Also a strike in between the Thursday and Saturday, I’m travelling on the 1254 on the Friday back to Aberdeen but that looks like termination in Edinburgh.

I’m still going ahead but anyone have suggestions if it comes to the worst? Apologies if this may feel like I’m derailing the topic a bit. I know it could be ok but who knows.

(12-16 September)

 

[800001]

LNER appear to be the latest TOC suffering from a string of issues blamed on 'a short notice change to the timetable'.

Today (6/9) the following LNER services have all been cancelled:
1Y14 0600 Berwick - Kings Cross
1A04 0605 Leeds - Kings Cross
1Y80 0708 Middlesbrough - Kings Cross
1N81 0906 Kings Cross - York
1E09 0930 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1S13 1100 Kings Cross - Edinburgh
1Y84 1202 York - Kings Cross
1W22 1500 Kings Cross - Stirling
1N23 1525 Kings Cross - Middlesbrough
1E23 1630 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1N29 1818 Kings Cross - Newcastle
1D29 1903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1N35 2200 Kings Cross - Newcastle

And the following services are all starting or terminating short:
1E03 0526 Stirling - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1W02 0708 Leeds - Aberdeen terminating at Edinburgh
1E13 0755 Inverness - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1E25 1452 Aberdeen - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1E20 1500 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle

For an operator that supposedly had a surplus of staff following recruitment for a timetable uplift that never happened, this is poor. It's also a joke that LNER are calling this a good service. Are LNER staff now on work to rule? Are the 80xs suffering from poor availability again? Is it a combination of both?

Whilst I'm on the subject of issues at LNER, there's still an issue with impartiality at Newcastle station, with LNER staff regularly refusing to help customers of other TOCs. It won't help that TPE keep expecting LNER to clear up the mess when everything to/from Chester-le-Street is cancelled, but LNER as the managing TOC of Newcastle station have a duty to be impartial when serving customers at the station, and this keeps being ignored. There are multiple reports of this on the forum, I'm also aware of many other incidents at Newcastle station. Do other LNER stations have this issue too?

I really hope this isn't a sign that LNER may be about to go the same way as Avanti and TPE!

No issues with the fleet what so ever.

 

[exbrel]

Where is this duty enshrined, please?

And do you have any evidence of LNER staff “regularly refusing help customers of other TOCs”, other than your own anecdotes

it does not have to be written in stone, ask any old time railway men, its there job... and were proud to do it.

 

[Fyldeboy]

it does not have to be written in stone, ask any old time railway men, its there job... and were proud to do it.

"old time railway men" are (literally) a dying breed. Whilst it would be 'nice' if LNER staff helped TPX, XC and Northern passengers, it is not suprising, if they are being watched by LNER supervisors, that they help LNER passengers.

I will say that I am suprised there isn't something in their contract to manage the station, but as 43066 asked and you didn't reply, I'll have to assume the requirement isn't there.

 

[800001]

"old time railway men" are (literally) a dying breed. Whilst it would be 'nice' if LNER staff helped TPX, XC and Northern passengers, it is not suprising, if they are being watched by LNER supervisors, that they help LNER passengers.

I will say that I am suprised there isn't something in their contract to manage the station, but as 43066 asked and you didn't reply, I'll have to assume the requirement isn't there.

LNER as the operator of the station have a duty to look after all TOCs customers.

This is the same at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster etc

 

[Fyldeboy]

LNER as the operator of the station have a duty to look after all TOCs customers.

This is the same at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster etc

But like "exbrel" you haven't given the what / why / where. I'm actually happy to say that I'm sure there is such an obligation, but I've also worked in the legal field and you can't argue against somebodys position without facts.

 

[800001]

But like "exbrel" you haven't given the what / why / where. I'm actually happy to say that I'm sure there is such an obligation, but I've also worked in the legal field and you can't argue against somebodys position without facts.

LNER are the station operator. There are no other TOC staff based at the station in a forward facing customer role.

LNER are the people responsible for delivering customer care to all operators customers at the stations they operate. Not quite sure what you mean when you say ‘what/why/where’. It isn’t about obligation, it is what they are contracted to do. If you want to find the legal position on this I suggest submitting a FOI request.

I am not arguing, I am stating facts. And trust me I know that is what they should be doing.

It disappoints me to see @DanNCL say the things he does about Newcastle, as it shows that certain members of staff are not delivering the customer service that they should do.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

LNER are the station operator. There are no other TOC staff based at the station in a forward facing customer role.

LNER are the people responsible for delivering customer care to all operators customers at the stations they operate. Not quite sure what you mean when you say ‘what/why/where’. It isn’t about obligation, it is what they are contracted to do. If you want to find the legal position on this I suggest submitting a FOI request.

I am not arguing, I am stating facts. And trust me I know that is what they should be doing.

It disappoints me to see @DanNCL say the things he does about Newcastle, as it shows that certain members of staff are not delivering the customer service that they should do.

I agree completely. It disappoints me that some on these pages seems to believe it must be written in a contract to offer help to other TOC’s passengers.

 

[LowLevel]

It's in their station access agreements with the other TOCs to provide customer service, whether that's day to day (for example passenger assist, dispatch etc) or just in times of disruption will depend on the contract. In the absence of other staff though the station facilities owner is to provide any help required.

 

[Dave91131]

Numerous cancellations, sorry "short notice changes to the timetable", again today as per the LNER website - which still claims a good service is operating bizarrely.

Are all of these cancellations declared prior to 10pm the evening before, hence not considered cancellations in the "published timetable of the day"?

It seems the Avanti and TPE bug is well and truly taking hold.

 

[Mag_seven]

Numerous cancellations, sorry "short notice changes to the timetable"

No way can "a short notice change to the timetable" be regarded as an explanation for a delay / cancellation. Its almost as meaningless as "due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft" as an "explanation" in the airline industry.

 

[800001]

No way can "a short notice change to the timetable" be regarded as an explanation for a delay / cancellation. Its almost as meaningless as "due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft" as an "explanation" in the airline industry.

Blame the dft who want that reason putting out rather than the true one.

And this will continue for weeks.

And yes all done prior to 10pm again Dft request.

 

[Dave91131]

Blame the dft who want that reason putting out rather than the true one.

And this will continue for weeks.

And yes all done prior to 10pm again Dft request.

So that's both of the UK's arterial south to north lines that now can't be trusted as far as I can spit.

Long distance coach operators and petrol forecourts will be rubbing their hands together with glee.

Perhaps the best thing the railway could do for its passengers would be to actively discourage them from using it, as that's they're best chance of actually getting to where they want to go at the time they want to get there.

The UK's national rail network; a national disgrace.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Numerous cancellations, sorry "short notice changes to the timetable", again today as per the LNER website - which still claims a good service is operating bizarrely.

Are all of these cancellations declared prior to 10pm the evening before, hence not considered cancellations in the "published timetable of the day"?

It seems the Avanti and TPE bug is well and truly taking hold.

Not all are done prior to 10pm. Only 2 of Tuesdays cancellations were announced prior to 10pm. Not even the 07:55 from Inverness despite the set never making it to Inverness that evening and they were still allowing advances to be bought too!

Same on Sunday evening, wasn't showing as cancelled on national rail enquiries/journey planner for 07:08 to Aberdeen, but realtime trains was showing terminating short at Edinburgh at 10pk night before, so depends what counts as published timetable as I don't think RTT counts as a public source

 

[Falcon1200]

What is the reason for what seems to be this sudden deterioration in LNER reliability? Infrastructure and external issues aside, they had been doing quite well recently, AFAIK.

 

[Mag_seven]

What is the reason for what seems to be this sudden deterioration in LNER reliability? Infrastructure and external issues aside, they had been doing quite well recently, AFAIK.

That's what I was thinking - you could always rely on them running a full service to/from Scotland when Avanti's service was falling apart like a cheap suit. What's going on?

 

[DanNCL]

Today's cancellations:
1Y14 0600 Berwick - Kings Cross
1A04 0605 Leeds - Kings Cross
1S00 0622 Newcastle - Edinburgh
1E07 0830 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1D07 0903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1E09 0930 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1A28 1145 Leeds - Kings Cross
1W22 1500 Kings Cross - Stirling
1N29 1818 Kings Cross - Newcastle
1D29 1903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1N33 2000 Kings Cross - Sunderland
1N34 2100 Kings Cross - Newcastle

Starting or terminating short:
1W02 0708 Leeds - Aberdeen terminating at Edinburgh
1W16 1200 Kings Cross - Inverness terminating at Edinburgh
1E19 1430 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle
1E25 1452 Aberdeen - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1E21 1530 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle

Additionally 1E04 0656 Edinburgh - Kings Cross was cancelled last night and reinstated in a VSTP schedule early this morning.

Are they all crewed by Newcastle based crews? Sounds like it looking at the list of cancellations, so could well be staff sickness or even working to rule.

Mostly a mix of Newcastle and Edinburgh crews but a few from Leeds in there too. Not sure if any of the cancelled ones have been Kings X turns.

I should say though that there are some really good LNER station staff who are not like this, and who will go out the way and help anyone regardless of which company they've been affected by, but unfortunately they seem few and far between.

Absolutely. Some of their staff at Newcastle station, many of whom have worked there for many years, are exceptional.

And do you have any evidence of LNER staff “regularly refusing help customers of other TOCs”, other than your own anecdotes?

At least two recent threads in disputes and prosecutions have mention of incidents at Newcastle station with LNER staff. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-cancelled-no-alternative-offered.236177/ and https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hen-a-train-is-cancelled.235583/#post-5794595
Both cases are where other TOCs have cancelled trains and LNER's staff at Newcastle have failed to provide adequate assistance, in both of those cases providing wrong information that they should have known, and in one case leading someone to needlessly pay for a hotel.

I have personally seen them laugh at Lumo passengers being stranded in Newcastle overnight rather than help them. I have heard multiple other stories from family and friends too, and they have no reason to lie.

No issues with the fleet what so ever.

So entirely down to the DFT and work to rule then.

So that's both of the UK's arterial south to north lines that now can't be trusted as far as I can spit.

Long distance coach operators and petrol forecourts will be rubbing their hands together with glee.

Perhaps the best thing the railway could do for its passengers would be to actively discourage them from using it, as that's they're best chance of actually getting to where they want to go at the time they want to get there.

The UK's national rail network; a national disgrace.

Indeed, you know things are bad when XC are the most reliable TOC across the Anglo-Scottish border!

What is the reason for what seems to be this sudden deterioration in LNER reliability? Infrastructure and external issues aside, they had been doing quite well recently, AFAIK.

That's what I was thinking - you could always rely on them running a full service to/from Scotland when Avanti's service was falling apart like a cheap suit. What's going on?

I wonder if a Rest Day Working agreement has ended without renewal.

 

[richa2002]

Many drivers no longer doing overtime. Another TOC bites the dust for reliability.

 

[EZJ]

LNER drivers have been balloted and overwhelming backed strike action. This means they are in dispute with the company, therefore no overtime or rest day working. Sadly another example of a TOC who doesn't employ enough staff to cover the train plan and relies on goodwill from it's staff but then treats them with contempt and then are surprised when that goodwill is removed.

 

[STINT47]

Reading this thread and others it's all a bit depressing. It seems that nearly all operators are having problems regardless of who runs them. Sadly taking a TOC into the public sector doesn't seem to make much difference.

 

[cuccir]

What is the reason for what seems to be this sudden deterioration in LNER reliability? Infrastructure and external issues aside, they had been doing quite well recently, AFAIK.

Yes, they had avoided most of the problems of some of the other TOCs until recent weeks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

So that's both of the UK's arterial south to north lines that now can't be trusted as far as I can spit.

Of their overall timetable, the changes are a pretty small percentage at the moment: this is not yet TPE/Avanti. I mean, irritating if it's your train but it is 9 cancellations and 7 short terminations today, for example. I guess we watch to see if it gets worse.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why would staff care which TOC a passenger is using?

I help out other TOC passengers a lot less than my own. I'll let you figure out why.

 

[greyman42]

I help out other TOC passengers a lot less than my own. I'll let you figure out why.

If i could figure out why i would not be asking the question, so perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

[Darandio]

I help out other TOC passengers a lot less than my own. I'll let you figure out why.

Because 99% of the passengers you encounter are only using your TOC!