Cyclists - your experiences on the road

[Bikeman78]

It very much isn't singling out a cyclist - it is making them the same as all others!

Oh you mean break the speed limit without consequence. Happy days

 

[Mikw]

Good timing with the announcement.

It's almost it was designed to drive the media narrative away from the awful inflation figures and onto one of the usual "divide and rule" targets....

 

[Falcon1200]

It very much isn't singling out a cyclist - it is making them the same as all others!

But there is no blanket 20mph speed limit on other road users !

This proposal seems to be designed more to keep the anti-cyclist section of the public happy than actually achieve anything, instead of properly addressing the daily toll of death and injury caused by motorists.

 

[Jonny]

It very much isn't singling out a cyclist - it is making them the same as all others!

Which would be quite OK if cycling was the same in nature as the others. There are several key differences (including vehicle weight) that merit a lighter regime, as does the exercise benefit to the user.

As an afterthought (in edit) I would add that unlike cars, the stability of pedal cycles improves with speed. In other words, the dynamics are totally different so that should be reflected in any laws.

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Also pedal cycles lack speedometers by default, and the more common methods on cars (e.g. cable speedometers) would likely get gunked up.

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But there is no blanket 20mph speed limit on other road users !

This proposal seems to be designed more to keep the anti-cyclist section of the public happy than actually achieve anything, instead of properly addressing the daily toll of death and injury caused by motorists.

It also overlooks "structural" causes - where facility design is more of an issue, especially putting cycles and pedestrians into conflict by design. Then there is the matter of some bus operators who probably view cyclists as lost fares, or at least act that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So when do horseriders get fitted with their speedos?

When was a horse last ridden at anywhere near 20mph on a public highway?

It has only become an issue due to 20 limits. Previously, before they existed, it was unlikely a cyclist would consistently exceed 30 in a 30 as that would be physically difficult for even the fittest cyclist.

Unfortunately we are now in a position where 20mph limits are common - largely for the benefit of cyclists - yet many of those same aggressive, young/middle aged Lycra wearing male cyclists (and it mostly is) won't give them any respect themselves and think it's OK to ride aggressively on urban roads. Well, in my book it isn't.

There are a LOT of that type of cyclist in London - the same type that typically used to run red lights until the Met and in particular the City Police had a massive crackdown. It is a bad culture.

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Don't forget about runners

You need to be Usain Bolt to be getting anywhere near 20mph (his 100m record averaged about 23). I suspect the number of people who can run that fast in the UK is in low single figures.

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But there is no blanket 20mph speed limit on other road users !

This proposal seems to be designed more to keep the anti-cyclist section of the public happy than actually achieve anything, instead of properly addressing the daily toll of death and injury caused by motorists.

There is no reason not to address both issues. Simple legislation requiring cyclists to keep to the speed limit would cost little.

 

[Falcon1200]

Simple legislation requiring cyclists to keep to the speed limit would cost little.

Enforcing it would be a different matter however; No bike I have ever owned has had a speedo and I'm not about to spend any of my pension fitting one now ! And how would it be enforced, divert Police Officers from other duties to sit at the roadside with a speed gun aimed at passing cyclists ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Enforcing it would be a different matter however; No bike I have ever owned has had a speedo and I'm not about to spend any of my pension fitting one now ! And how would it be enforced, divert Police Officers from other duties to sit at the roadside with a speed gun aimed at passing cyclists ?

20 limits don't generally use fixed speed cameras, so yes, we do need camera vans, local speed partnerships etc out there to enforce it.

Most cyclists would know if they were going that fast. For a "normal" utility cyclist on an average bike 10mph is pretty normal and 15mph would feel pretty quick. If riding a fancy road bike where 20 would be an easy speed, adding a speedo would cost pennies compared with the £5K the bike cost.

 

[Falcon1200]

20 limits don't generally use fixed speed cameras, so yes, we do need camera vans, local speed partnerships etc out there to enforce it.

Given the small number of deaths and injuries caused by cyclists (although of course even one is one too many), compared to the thousands, every single year, killed and maimed by motorists, would that really be a sensible use of resources ?

If riding a fancy road bike where 20 would be an easy speed, adding a speedo would cost pennies compared with the £5K the bike cost.

Surely if this speed limit was introduced, every single bike even remotely capable of exceeding 20mph would have to, by law, be fitted with a speedo ? If so, that would be the end of me cycling.

 

[DC1989]

Surely if this speed limit was introduced, every single bike even remotely capable of exceeding 20mph would have to, by law, be fitted with a speedo ? If so, that would be the end of me cycling.

I suspect that's rather the point

Never going to happen anyway. There are tens of millions of bikes in the UK, it would require a department dwarfing the DVLA just to get it set up. And the Tories are the party of cutting red tape aren't they?

This is just another easy bit of red meat for the Tory voters. The war on woke now includes the humble bicycle

 

[JamesT]

When was a horse last ridden at anywhere near 20mph on a public highway?

It has only become an issue due to 20 limits. Previously, before they existed, it was unlikely a cyclist would consistently exceed 30 in a 30 as that would be physically difficult for even the fittest cyclist.

Unfortunately we are now in a position where 20mph limits are common - largely for the benefit of cyclists - yet many of those same aggressive, young/middle aged Lycra wearing male cyclists (and it mostly is) won't give them any respect themselves and think it's OK to ride aggressively on urban roads. Well, in my book it isn't.

There are a LOT of that type of cyclist in London - the same type that typically used to run red lights until the Met and in particular the City Police had a massive crackdown. It is a bad culture.

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You need to be Usain Bolt to be getting anywhere near 20mph (his 100m record averaged about 23). I suspect the number of people who can run that fast in the UK is in low single figures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==



There is no reason not to address both issues. Simple legislation requiring cyclists to keep to the speed limit would cost little.

Your claim was that cyclists weren't being targeted. If that was true then all non-motor vehicle traffic on the roads would be being proposed to have to get insurance and numberplates and speedos to be able to comply with these rules.
Horses can easily do 30-40mph, I wouldn't be surprised to find a foxhunt on the chase doing over 20mph on a public road. A horse hitting someone is more likely to cause injury than a cyclist.

20 limits don't generally use fixed speed cameras, so yes, we do need camera vans, local speed partnerships etc out there to enforce it.

Most cyclists would know if they were going that fast. For a "normal" utility cyclist on an average bike 10mph is pretty normal and 15mph would feel pretty quick. If riding a fancy road bike where 20 would be an easy speed, adding a speedo would cost pennies compared with the £5K the bike cost.

Either I'm much fitter than I think I am, or you're somewhat underestimating the normal speed of cyclists. I'm an overweight 40-year-old, I don't ride a fancy road bike, mine is a Boardman HYB 8.6, £550 from Halfords. It's a hybrid commuter bike, no skinny tyres and usually carrying a couple of panniers.
I cycle about 4.5 miles each way on my commute. I get up to about 20mph going down some of the hills, they're not that steep and it doesn't feel that fast. I'm normally more worried about the car that's tailgating me in this 20mph limit.
It's only since I got a smartwatch this year that I've been at all aware of what kinds of speeds I've been doing. But the difference with the smartwatch is it's after the fact. I'm not being distracted from looking out which driver is trying to kill me by looking at a screen to see whether my speed is just above or below the limit.

Your issue seems to be more with aggressive cycling than speed. Though I'm curious where you'd draw the line of aggressive versus merely assertive? Though as you note this would have to be enforced by bodies on the ground, wouldn't it be better to actually enforce the laws around dangerous or careless cycling rather than arbitrary speed limits?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the small number of deaths and injuries caused by cyclists (although of course even one is one too many), compared to the thousands, every single year, killed and maimed by motorists, would that really be a sensible use of resources ?

They wouldn't just be enforcing against cyclists, cars too.

Surely if this speed limit was introduced, every single bike even remotely capable of exceeding 20mph would have to, by law, be fitted with a speedo ? If so, that would be the end of me cycling.

Only if you don't have a clue as to what 20mph feels like on a bike - and the answer is fast. Though cycle speedometers cost pennies and you can easily callbrate one youself using GPS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==

Your claim was that cyclists weren't being targeted. If that was true then all non-motor vehicle traffic on the roads would be being proposed to have to get insurance and numberplates and speedos to be able to comply with these rules.
Horses can easily do 30-40mph, I wouldn't be surprised to find a foxhunt on the chase doing over 20mph on a public road. A horse hitting someone is more likely to cause injury than a cyclist.

Horses can't trot at 30mph. Horses don't gallop on the road; it would cause injury as the surface is too hard.

Either I'm much fitter than I think I am, or you're somewhat underestimating the normal speed of cyclists. I'm an overweight 40-year-old, I don't ride a fancy road bike, mine is a Boardman HYB 8.6, £550 from Halfords. It's a hybrid commuter bike, no skinny tyres and usually carrying a couple of panniers.
I cycle about 4.5 miles each way on my commute. I get up to about 20mph going down some of the hills, they're not that steep and it doesn't feel that fast. I'm normally more worried about the car that's tailgating me in this 20mph limit.
It's only since I got a smartwatch this year that I've been at all aware of what kinds of speeds I've been doing. But the difference with the smartwatch is it's after the fact. I'm not being distracted from looking out which driver is trying to kill me by looking at a screen to see whether my speed is just above or below the limit.

Your issue seems to be more with aggressive cycling than speed. Though I'm curious where you'd draw the line of aggressive versus merely assertive? Though as you note this would have to be enforced by bodies on the ground, wouldn't it be better to actually enforce the laws around dangerous or careless cycling rather than arbitrary speed limits?

It is easier to enforce speed; "wanton and furious cycling" is a bit hard to prosecute as it is subjective. The difference between aggressive and assertive is indeed hard to call, but it's easier to call exceeding the speed limit.

I don't agree with number plates and insurance, just a simple, very low cost change.

 

[Magdalia]

I ride an ebike (which has a speedometer), mostly at or near to the 15mph maximum for assistance from the electric motor. This includes quite a bit of riding on roads with 20mph speed limits.

I'm rarely overtaken by other cyclists, and the number that might be exceeding 20mph is tiny. But where I cycle is mostly flat, speeds in excess of 20mph are easily achieved going down steep hills or bridges.

However, I'm overtaken on 20mph roads by cars exceeding 20mph every time that I go out.

There's a 20mph road near where I live that has one of those dot matrix signs that detects the speed of oncoming traffic, and displays a smile if it is below 20mph, but a grimace if it is above 20mph. As I'm overtaken by the cars, I see a lot more grimaces than smiles! Usually I only see smiles if the traffic is stuck behind a bus.

You need to be Usain Bolt to be getting anywhere near 20mph (his 100m record averaged about 23). I suspect the number of people who can run that fast in the UK is in low single figures.

20mph is just over 11 seconds for 100 metres. Quite a few men can sprint that fast, including the very best 400m sprinters, plus a very small number of the fastest women sprinters. But nobody running on a public road will be going that fast.

 

[Ediswan]

Only if you don't have a clue as to what 20mph feels like on a bike - and the answer is fast.

20mph feels perfectly normal to many cyclists. Very easy with a modest downhill gradient or a tail wind.

Though cycle speedometers cost pennies and you can easily callbrate one youself using GPS.

About £30 if you go to Halfords. They are calibrated by entering the tyre circumference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

.

20mph feels perfectly normal to many cyclists. Very easy with a modest downhill gradient or a tail wind.

Though most urban utility cyclists will be doing about 10-15mph.

 

[Techniquest]

I haven't read the news about this whole 20mph limit for cycling thing, wasn't there a link provided from the Daily Mail? If so, it's not worth reading!

I am the proud owner of a Carrera Zelos road cycle, and no I didn't spend £5k on it. If I had that sort of money, I'd have gone on a major world tour of a holiday! I got my cycle second hand for just £255, and there's no question of the fact she's a lightweight, nimble and fast machine. However, it is worth saying that I'm not one of these Lycra-clad stereotypes that were mentioned. I do like dropping the hammer where possible, if only to keep the traffic behind me satisfied! There's little chance of me breaking many if any speed limits. I forget now where it was, but I came around a corner somewhere in a 30 zone (I think if may have been higher) and I was doing 19mph. Wherever this was, I was well chuffed at 19mph, it wasn't in the easiest area to do such speed!

If this 20mph thing actually comes through into law, I would be surprised.

 

[TheBigD]

20mph feels perfectly normal to many cyclists. Very easy with a modest downhill gradient or a tail wind.

I live in the fens. Its as flat as flat can be. Prividing you've not got a headwind, 20+mph for mile after mile is normal.

 

[Techniquest]

I live in the fens. Its as flat as flat can be. Prividing you've not got a headwind, 20+mph for mile after mile is normal.

I'll agree with that, I did some of the Fens last year, the outward in the headwind was awful but the way back was brilliant. A lot of work all the way over in the morning, but when I got the tailwind I was so happy. Agreed that there's a lot of flat land to cycle over, and in good conditions 20mph would not take much effort!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll agree with that, I did some of the Fens last year, the outward in the headwind was awful but the way back was brilliant. A lot of work all the way over in the morning, but when I got the tailwind I was so happy. Agreed that there's a lot of flat land to cycle over, and in good conditions 20mph would not take much effort!

Even so I bet you'd know you were going over 20 in an urban 20 limit.

 

[Bald Rick]

Many of them have speedometers, fitting them plus limiters could be made compulsory.

Fitting limiters to cycles is the funniest thing I’ve heard all week. How will the limiter work - will it send an electrical impulse to your legs to stop pedalling?

Enforcing it would be a different matter however; No bike I have ever owned has had a speedo and I'm not about to spend any of my pension fitting one now ! And how would it be enforced, divert Police Officers from other duties to sit at the roadside with a speed gun aimed at passing cyclists ?

most 20mph limits I am aware of are, according to the local police, “self enforcing”.

Only if you don't have a clue as to what 20mph feels like on a bike - and the answer is fast.

It isn’t. 30mph on a bike is fast. 20mph is relatively normal.

If this 20mph thing actually comes through into law, I would be surprised.

don’t worry @Techniquest, it’s not a 20mph limit for cyclists, it‘s a suggestion that cyclists should stick to the speed limits of the roads they are on (a sensible suggestion).

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Even so I bet you'd know you were going over 20 in an urban 20 limit.

To be fair, I found myself doing 28 in a 20 at the weekend and had no idea it was a 20 till I saw the big painted sign on the road ahead.

 

[TheBigD]

Even so I bet you'd know you were going over 20 in an urban 20 limit.

The garmin tells me my speed where ever I go. 20mph on a road is still 20mph, whether town, city, village, or countryside. It isn't fast at all. Doing 45mph down Collyweston hill is fast, but fun!!!

 

[Bikeman78]

But there is no blanket 20mph speed limit on other road users !

This proposal seems to be designed more to keep the anti-cyclist section of the public happy than actually achieve anything, instead of properly addressing the daily toll of death and injury caused by motorists.

Large chunks of Cardiff are 20 mph now but it's routinely ignored by most drivers. It would be absurd to try and penalise cyclists whilst ignoring all the drivers. Are 20 limits even enforceable? None have speed cameras. I rarely exceed 20 anyway although I get into the 30s on some downhill sections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Large chunks of Cardiff are 20 mph now but it's routinely ignored by most drivers. It would be absurd to try and penalise cyclists whilst ignoring all the drivers. Are 20 limits even enforceable? None have speed cameras. I rarely exceed 20 anyway although I get into the 30s on some downhill sections.

Is anyone proposing that?

Yes, they are enforceable.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Identifying road users does not eliminate danger. The UK has an estimated one million uninsured drivers, according to the Motor Insurers’ Bureau, and about 70 people a day are either killed on the roads or experience potentially life-changing injuries.

Almost all road casualties are caused by cars. Focusing finite police resources on bikes would be to concentrate on a group that kills an average of two a year, against around the 1,700 lives lost each year in car accidents.

This nonsense from Grant Schapps is just to pander to those against cycling, it has absolutely no basis in reality.

 

[Techniquest]

Even so I bet you'd know you were going over 20 in an urban 20 limit.

I would like to hope I'd know, yes!

@Bald Rick , thanks that makes sense. If the proposal is simply that cyclists need to be more vigilant of their speed and not doing 35mph in a 20mph zone, then that's fair enough. The odds of me ever exceeding 30mph in the average 30 zone are so poor no bookie in their right mind would take a wager on it!

Of course, I'd like to see more enforcement of these speed limits for everyone!

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, they are enforceable.

Agreed they are enforceable, but they are very rarely enforced.

 

[alxndr]

Horses can easily do 30-40mph, I wouldn't be surprised to find a foxhunt on the chase doing over 20mph on a public road. A horse hitting someone is more likely to cause injury than a cyclist.

No responsible horse owner will be riding their horse above a trot on a paved road due to the risk of causing damage. Even a trot isn’t something you’d want to keep up for extended distances if you can help it on such a hard surface. Trotting is apparently on average about 8mph, certainly nothing that would be considered reckless.

 

[Jonny]

Even so I bet you'd know you were going over 20 in an urban 20 limit.

Perceived and actual speed vary - 20mph on a wide, open(ish) street feels slower than walking down an alleyway. Feels is the key word.

Also there are differences even between a pedal cycle and either a car or a motor cycle - the pedals on a bicycle are part of the drivetrain, whereas the pedals on a car are controls with at least one degree of separation (maybe more). Bicycles are not amenable to easy regulation of speed. They are not the same as motorised vehicles.

Also, it's a lot easier to cycle for exercise if you're not worrying about a numerical speed.

 

[Falcon1200]

How will the limiter work - will it send an electrical impulse to your legs to stop pedalling?

Or a spike in the saddle ?

This nonsense from Grant Shapps is just to pander to those against cycling, it has absolutely no basis in reality.

Indeed, there are far more important areas of road safety to focus on.

 

[MattA7]

How often are pedestrians hit and killed by cyclists in the UK? even if you are hit by a car at 20mph around 95% survive (80% at 30, 10% at 40) hence why we have 20 zones in high risk areas.

I don’t doubt cycling is the most dangerous method of transport for the cyclist themselves but I imagine that the risk to other road users is low.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How often are pedestrians hit and killed by cyclists in the UK? even if you are hit by a car at 20mph around 95% survive (80% at 30, 10% at 40) hence why we have 20 zones in high risk areas.

I don’t doubt cycling is the most dangerous method of transport for the cyclist themselves but I imagine that the risk to other road users is low.

Fairly low. But there's also the question of "feel" as a pedestrian. 20s are mostly about shifting the balance in favour of the pedestrian, though they also benefit cyclists by making them the same speed (and usually faster acceleration) as the motor vehicles. It's not much to ask for cyclists to rein in their aggressive approach (cycling over 20mph in an urban area is definitely aggressive, London is terrible for it) in order to enjoy the benefits.

We need a massive change in our urban road use culture, and that includes towards a more Dutch approach to utility cycling - that is, riding a sit up and beg type bike at 10-15mph in normal clothes on a safe, segregated facility, not riding an aggressive road bike or fixie at 25-30mph on the road. It's nice to see more bikes in London, yes, but the cycling culture there is the wrong one. Every country that does utility cycling well for everyone fits the former model, not the latter one which is for testosterone filled, Lycra wearing young and middle aged males only. (Look at the demographic of London cyclists and you'll see my point, even though I am a middle aged male! )