CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bletchleyite]

That's the nice thing about a uniform fleet - it becomes a lot easier to shuffle capacity around the network as required.

Now they just need to get ETCS fitted to the 3 car sets to make the Cambrian less unpleasant in summer...

 

[Anonymous10]

Now they just need to get ETCS fitted to the 3 car sets to make the Cambrian less unpleasant in summer...

im personally hoping tenby gets 3 car trains given it has the stop boards

 

[craigybagel]

Now they just need to get ETCS fitted to the 3 car sets to make the Cambrian less unpleasant in summer...

And doing that is only a quick job in a depot, the other sets are designed with that in mind.

As opposed to the current situation where TfW would either have to acquire extra 158s from somewhere, then do the much more complicated modification work for ETCS - or alternatively modify some 175s or other units in the fleet, which would require a whole load of design work, then carry out said work, and then train all the Mach and Pwllheli crews on those units.

As I've said before, I trust TfW have got their maths right with the Cambrian fleet - but if not, it's pretty easily fixed.

 

[DBS92042]

197009 currently on its way from Wolverton to Crewe

 

[theblackwatch]

197009 currently on its way from Wolverton to Crewe

Any idea what is hauling it please? (I assume it's not under its own power!)

 

[berneyarms]

What was it doing at Wolverton?

 

[DBS92042]

Any idea what is hauling it please? (I assume it's not under its own power!)

No it wasn't (shouldve said that, sorry). 66559 provided the power

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What was it doing at Wolverton?

Not too sure. It arrived by road from MoD Bicester with a couple of other TfW 197s

 

[theblackwatch]

No it wasn't (shouldve said that, sorry). 66559 provided the power

Thanks

 

[The_Train]

No it wasn't (shouldve said that, sorry). 66559 provided the power

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2022 ==


Not too sure. It arrived by road from MoD Bicester with a couple of other TfW 197s

My records had 197006 / 007 / 008 at Bicester - have all of these transferred to Wolverton now?

 

[DBS92042]

My records had 197006 / 007 / 008 at Bicester - have all of these transferred to Wolverton now?

I'm not sure, I was going off of gen. Haven't seen them there myself

 

[Bob Price]

When testing is happening these days it's not unusual for three units to be out together on the Crewe - Llandudno milage accumulation. They can't be far away from acceptance on some units.

 

[GWVillager]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but have any of the units with first class been delivered (or even built)?

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but have any of the units with first class been delivered (or even built)?

Not a stupid question at all - but the answer is no, at least as far as deliveries anyway. They were always meant to be amongst the final units delivered.

 

[krus_aragon]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but have any of the units with first class been delivered (or even built)?

Not a stupid question at all - but the answer is no, at least as far as deliveries anyway. They were always meant to be amongst the final units delivered.

One of the reasons they're last on the list is that there's some flexibility in the contract as to how many units will be fitted with First Class. Initially this seemed to allow for removal of First Class services if the business case didn't pan out as hoped. Since then, the acquisition of extra MkIV rakes is another reason why the exact number of First Class 197s might not be finalised.

 

[GWVillager]

One of the reasons they're last on the list is that there's some flexibility in the contract as to how many units will be fitted with First Class. Initially this seemed to allow for removal of First Class services if the business case didn't pan out as hoped. Since then, the acquisition of extra MkIV rakes is another reason why the exact number of First Class 197s might not be finalised.

Ah right, thank you both.

 

[Rhydgaled]

One of the reasons they're last on the list is that there's some flexibility in the contract as to how many units will be fitted with First Class. Initially this seemed to allow for removal of First Class services if the business case didn't pan out as hoped. Since then, the acquisition of extra MkIV rakes is another reason why the exact number of First Class 197s might not be finalised.

The ORR authorisation to carry passengers for the 3-car units without first class (and non-ETCS 2-car units) was very specific in the number of units, so any flexibility there might have been didn't seem to apply to that step. The rolling stock minimum requirements and specifications document is also specific regarding the planned final number of "first class fitted" units (ie. 14 units leased from 31st Dec 2024). It appears that no first class would be offered before 31st Dec 2024. The flexibility (at least in that document) appears to lie in how they plan to suddenly introduce all 14 units into service with first class on a single date. Two options are given:

• first class ready (0 to 7 units)
• decommissioned first class (7 to 14 units)

The latter appears to simply be the "first class fitted" units with first class declassified, while the former has more seats (almost as many as the 'standard' 3-car units) but presumably could be quickly refurnished to provide the first class seating.

 

[krus_aragon]

That's the document I had in mind, thanks for posting a link.

My original reading of that document was that 14 First Class units is their plan, but that they could later decommission them back to standard if it didn't work out. However, on re-reading it, I note that both the "ready" and "decommissioned" have the same lease end date, so one couldn't be taking over from the other. It seems your reading of the situation is more accurate. Thank you for taking the time to summarise it.

That specifications document dates from the start of the franchise, of course, so the numbers may have changed since. As I suggested in my previous post, TfW might not need 14 First Class 197s alongside the MkIVs.

 

[craigybagel]

I would take any documents from the start of the franchise with a massive pinch of salt. The acquisition of the extra MKIVs has changed a lot of plans.

 

[GWVillager]

The ORR authorisation to carry passengers for the 3-car units without first class (and non-ETCS 2-car units) was very specific in the number of units, so any flexibility there might have been didn't seem to apply to that step. The rolling stock minimum requirements and specifications document is also specific regarding the planned final number of "first class fitted" units (ie. 14 units leased from 31st Dec 2024). It appears that no first class would be offered before 31st Dec 2024. The flexibility (at least in that document) appears to lie in how they plan to suddenly introduce all 14 units into service with first class on a single date. Two options are given:

• first class ready (0 to 7 units)
• decommissioned first class (7 to 14 units)

The latter appears to simply be the "first class fitted" units with first class declassified, while the former has more seats (almost as many as the 'standard' 3-car units) but presumably could be quickly refurnished to provide the first class seating.

"Quickly refurnished to provide the first class seating". So like coach D on the Virgin 221s? If so that's hardly First Class of a quality people will be willing to pay for.

 

[Philip]

Have any 175s moved to Longsight depot now that the first 197s are close to entering service?

 

[HSTEd]

"Quickly refurnished to provide the first class seating". So like coach D on the Virgin 221s? If so that's hardly First Class of a quality people will be willing to pay for.

Modern trains have put great efforts into rapid retrofit capabilities.

The new TGV Duplex (Avelia Horizon or whatever its called this week) will, in theory, allow complete replacement of the interior in 48 hours.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Have any 175s moved to Longsight depot now that the first 197s are close to entering service?

I'll leave it to be confirmed, but I believe the plans have changed and the 175s will be staying longer than was previously expected. A couple have definitely been to Longsight for exams but I know nothing further than that. Maybe someone else will be able to enlighten us on what is happening with these.

 

[Doveymain158]

175s wont go yet you still got 4 depots that need training before they even start thinking about taking them off lease.

 

[craigybagel]

The first few 197s in service will be on 150 & 153 diagrams. We're not likely to see them on 175 diagrams for a few months yet, and even then only on a few diagrams captive to North Wales/Manchester.

 

[sd0733]

Have any 175s moved to Longsight depot now that the first 197s are close to entering service?

I believe the latest Plans see the 170s as first to go so all the 150/153s replaced will need to directly or indirectly cover those.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Thanks for the updates both.

 

[mmh]

Saw a (I think) 7 car in a siding on Conwy cob on Monday, and a 2 car heading to Llandudno yesterday, so perhaps the playing with trains is finally ramping up and we might see one in service this decade.

Always fun to watch them go by empty while waiting for a packed service train.

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the 175s will be staying longer than was previously expected.

This should surprise nobody!

 

[Anonymous10]

Saw a (I think) 7 car in a siding on Conwy cob on Monday, and a 2 car heading to Llandudno yesterday, so perhaps the playing with trains is finally ramping up and we might see one in service this decade.

Always fun to watch them go by empty while waiting for a packed service train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2022 ==


This should surprise nobody!

its been documented for months the training ramping up

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Saw a (I think) 7 car in a siding on Conwy cob on Monday, and a 2 car heading to Llandudno yesterday, so perhaps the playing with trains is finally ramping up and we might see one in service this decade.

Always fun to watch them go by empty while waiting for a packed service train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2022 ==


This should surprise nobody!

This is such an unfairly cynical sounding post considering how fast progress is going for the 197s. Compared to the sister 196s it’s a exceptionally speedy.

 

[mmh]

This is such an unfairly cynical sounding post considering how fast progress is going for the 197s. Compared to the sister 196s it’s a exceptionally speedy.

It's very easy to be cynical if you have the misfortune to live here and watch an empty 197 go past while you wait for your hotchpotch 150/153/etc combo on Holyhead to Cardiff.