M&NEJ
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Whatever the answer to that question, does it support the closure of ticket offices?
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Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2
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It comes back to that it should be a decision based on business need and what would support passengers the best.
Is that so? I assume you work on the railway yourself, to make such a statement?
I’d suggest it’s something you’ve just made up.
It's comments like this that are really unhelpful. The railway industry is not a Secret Garden upon which only those who work in it have any knowledge or can comment.
Rail is just like the NHS, education and a dozen other issues that are regularly the subject of public debate and scrutiny. I've yet to understand why some rail staff think their industry is any different.
Shrop
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Here's a situation that arose just this morning with my own daughter. Just one of many probably, but worth relating. She and her husband had tickets for West Midlands Trains to travel from Euston to Crewe, booked some time ago, before the strike was called. They turned up at Euston and were permitted to travel on Avanti, which is normally considerably more expensive. Not only that, but they tell me they have been advised that they will ALSO get a full refund from WMT.
Good on them I say. As passengers they have had to spend last night worrying about how they might make their journey home so they should be entitled to make the journey, and also to benefit from having a faster journey as compensation for that worry which was through no fault of their own.
But if I was in rail management, I would be seriously wondering how much this is costing, to provide not only free upgrades, but (arguably unnecessary) refunds on top of that. And if I was working anywhere in the rail industry, at any level, I would be seriously concerned about how much long term financial damage to my industry, that these strikes are causing. Because however much of this is being propped up by Government in the short term, it's only a matter of time until they do their sums and use these costs as justification to cut future expenditure on the rail companies.
Good on them I say. As passengers they have had to spend last night worrying about how they might make their journey home so they should be entitled to make the journey, and also to benefit from having a faster journey as compensation for that worry which was through no fault of their own.
But if I was in rail management, I would be seriously wondering how much this is costing, to provide not only free upgrades, but (arguably unnecessary) refunds on top of that. And if I was working anywhere in the rail industry, at any level, I would be seriously concerned about how much long term financial damage to my industry, that these strikes are causing. Because however much of this is being propped up by Government in the short term, it's only a matter of time until they do their sums and use these costs as justification to cut future expenditure on the rail companies.
Except for card payments in which you do, and the majority of ticket buyers/excesses pay by card
TVM’s require it for TOD
Bertie the bus
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It is a common theme on rail forums. Some people think the railway is special and because they work on it so are they by association and anybody who doesn’t work on it can’t possibly have any understanding of how the railway works or should work.
I would say this forum is much better than most in that there are some people on here who work on the railway and clearly have a lot of knowledge and patiently explain things to people who clearly have little or none, whereas elsewhere they would just get abuse or ridicule.
It sounds as though there has possibly been incorrect advice given.
If your daughter arrived in Crewe on schedule (did they?) then there would be no refund or compensation due. I personally wouldn't describe this process as a free upgrade - if that's the way you see it then of course absolutely fair enough that's good for them. However to me, unless they set off on schedule and arrived substantially early it's really not an upgrade.
It sounds very unlikely to me that West Midlands Trains or the original seller of the ticket your daughter bought would refund it if they were aware of the full circumstances. Obviously if there's a delay of a qualifying length of time then there would be a persuasive argument that some compensation is due.
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I agree. Pretty much all of the public sector is viewed as fair game by the general public for them to have opinions on, whether you think that's right or wrong. The forum as it stands now has lots of people who are particularly good at trying to explain things in an accessible way too (not that I would rush to include myself in that).
The railway industry is very specialised and can be very good at delivering an exceptionally efficient service, under some very specific and quite narrow circumstances. Unfortunately I think that leads a lot of people to the incorrect conclusion that it's fundamentally special and not subject to the same economic principles as other businesses or modes of transport.
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I think that a lot of ticket machines now are set up to just go out of service if they're not online.
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The one at York does not appear to be declining.
It is also possible to speculate that there might be more money on the table if the RMT hold out a bit longer in the Network Rail strike because of the importance of the particular part of the workforce to the operation of the railway.
The fact remains that the demands have not been fully met in the dispute and therefore the mandate from the membership to get something better remains valid.
Why?
none of which need a ticket office. All can be done, with the possible exception of railcards, by staff on the shop floor.
I can assure you that many people, including myself, are seriously concerned.
I don’t know the legalities, but it feels borderline to me.
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That is of course speculation. But given how the offer has progressed, it seems there is no more money. RMT members in NR would be wise to consider why they haven’t been offered a referendum, particularly when it has been reported that the RMT negotiators suggested the offer would be put to members.
I'd agree with you that the refunds on top are ridiculous. That's what happens with delay repay in it's current form though ! No culture war wins to be had from delay repay reform, so the dft will probably ignore that waste and just keep on hammering the staff.
Rail strikes discussion
It’s a breach of contract, which is why you don’t get paid when you strike. However you cannot be disciplined for it, unlike if you were just to go AWOL. Cheers, I wasn't aware it would be a breach of contract. It is a breach of contract but by the same token you are protected from...
www.railforums.co.uk
Can you tell me specifically which TOCs capitulated, and in which dispute?
I’ve simply asked for some clarification. As someone who actually works in the industry I should surely have been aware of these productivity changes being proposed a few years ago?
Ok if you consider posts like this pure fantasy, your correctRail strikes discussion
It’s a breach of contract, which is why you don’t get paid when you strike. However you cannot be disciplined for it, unlike if you were just to go AWOL. Cheers, I wasn't aware it would be a breach of contract. It is a breach of contract but by the same token you are protected from...
It’s a very biased post, yes. Those good old “Spanish practices” again. But what would I know, I only work in the industry - I’m sure you think you know more about my Ts and Cs than I do. That goes back to my previous question - unless you work in the industry yourself, I’m unsure as to why you think you’re in any position to know what is fantasy and what is reality.
What do you do workwise yourself, out of interest? You tell me and I’ll tell you my views on your remuneration and Ts and Cs….
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43096
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You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with what everyone else does and their T&Cs. You're the one who has chosen to come on a railway forum and give us your opinions on railway industrial relations. Not surprisingly others have a view as well.
Northern when they proposed DOO. GWR same though they did get driver release.
MalaiseForever
Member
I wish I had taken my chances too then. I cancelled a trip down to London because no London Northwestern trains and I assumed all the Avanti's would be manic.
Working in group finance at NR I'm pretty confident there really isn't anymore money on the table from an internal source. The only was I can see the offer being improved is if the Government decide to fund an additional offer - which we all know is almost definitely not going to happen.
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Carlisle has always been very disappointed that more TOCs haven't pushed through driver only operation and regraded their guards as on board hosts or removed them. He views it as a spectacular management failing and capitulation in the face of union objections, but prefers to dance around the matter referring to productivity improvements etc. Naturally there cannot be any merit in having a traditional guard in the modern era.
Of course, I disagree with them entirely, but still, entitled to their opinion
Of course, I disagree with them entirely, but still, entitled to their opinion
Kite159
Veteran Member
The legendary Sheffield Ticket Office...
Where if you want something a bit unusual it normally gets met with a "can't sell it here".
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What the network don't need more off is poorly trained agency staff working gatelines, whom don't understand the concept of breaking a journey when passengers have a 25 minute connection and just want to pop out to the nearby shop.
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I must admit, Leeds is my usual one, and I've generally found them to be superb over twenty years or so
Which is ultimately a failure of management. If it's a lack of knowledge, train the staff. If it's laziness, instruct them to do the job they're paid to do.
Shrop
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Yes, I would have suspected that. I'm quite surprised that there seems to almost be an "anything goes" attitude to passengers too. It seems to be the reverse of the dire situations I've seen so many times when problems arise, when information is woefully lacking and passengers are left to fend for themselves. Today it almost seems that if passengers have their wits about them, they can take advantage of the lack of management and get themselves both a faster service, AND a refund to boot!
Unless I've misunderstood something, this seems to be the crux of the whole situation. Internal money simply isn't available, and Government (many of whom just don't like the rail industry) are looking for reasons to reduce funding, which those on strike are presently providing for them in spades.
Of course I sympathise with those who are facing raw deals in working conditions, but for those who think they can simply bang the table and demand money in order to keep pace with the cost of living, or with others who might be earning slightly more than they are, it seems that public sympathy (many of whom are facing reducing living standards themselves) might be dwindling, and Government sympathy even more so.
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Signal_Box
Member
I suspect this is the case yes, I’ll put money on a strike early Sept just after the new PM is announced.
Trust is breaking down on all sides, employees, employers, unions and government it’ll end one way I fear with mass job losses with very poor terms of redundancy thanks to the RMT in particular wanting to keep their new found fame going.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Agreed, I reckon once the 12 week 'protection' period is up, Network rail might go down the nuclear option of Fire & rehire citing breach of contract, especially for some of the staff who might have otherwise decided to leave if offered redundancy.
Depends on the business and the nature of productivity changes. I'm sure it's different in each employment sector.
Not all 'productivity changes' are just neutral common sense improvements to processes.
I'm ok with productivity changes around technology, booking on/off work, reporting etc
But at my TOC as well as items like this they also refer to 'productivity changes' for proposed items like - driving more hours each day, having more shifts each week that are spare turns with short notice movements of 3hrs, having no fixed rest day working pattern, having less time off at weekend, having less choice on holiday times/dates, having shorter breaks, having less time between trains, etc.
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Nothing to do with “productivity”, though…
Carlisle has always been very disappointed that more TOCs haven't pushed through driver only operation and regraded their guards as on board hosts or removed them. He views it as a spectacular management failing and capitulation in the face of union objections, but prefers to dance around the matter referring to productivity improvements etc. Naturally there cannot be any merit in having a traditional guard in the modern era.
Of course, I disagree with them entirely, but still, entitled to their opinion
Indeed. I notice he’s happy to comment on the jobs of others, still silent on what he does himself…
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