Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, but we are no further forward than this time last year and I'm afraid in prevailing circumstances I just assume "deferred" actually means "cancelled".

Personally, I doubt if we'll ever see the proposed December timetable. Any changes will be tweaks to the current timetable.

As for the 701s, I can see them being rejected, sent back to Alstom for reconfiguration and "re-ordered" as a Networker replacement programme. Meanwhile SWR will soldier on as the oldest fleet in the country with the 455s overhauled and the 458 rebuild programme cancelled. The punters on the Portsmouth Direct will just have to live with their 455s.

450s surely? 455s would be extreme even for SWR although at least they’d be 2+2.

 

[Goldfish62]

450s surely? 455s would be extreme even for SWR although at least they’d be 2+2.

Yes, I just corrected it.

It would be amusing though...

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, I just corrected it.

It would be amusing though...

Although they might get away with it if they were just re-painted in SWT mainline white, as “we want white trains” seems to have been the big question in those parts…

 

[nlogax]

Although they might get away with it if they were just re-painted in SWT mainline white, as “we want white trains” seems to have been the big question in those parts…

I would actually pay money to see this happen

 

[pompeyfan]

The 701s will eventually enter service in my opinion, although ABDO probably won’t ever see the light of day, and seeing as the reduction in dwell is no longer required they might even be guard close (although with no middle cab on 10 car units it would be interesting to see how you could safely dispatch a crush loaded train, rear cab wouldn’t work from a PTI perspective).

I think the timetable we see now is here to stay with no more changes to major service groups (except possibly the Salisbury stoppers running to Waterloo again). Certainly won’t see 4 TPH from Haslemere to Waterloo or the extra Guildfords via Effingham.

 

[Goldfish62]

I would actually pay money to see this happen

I'm with you on that.

The problem is of course that a lot of the most vociferous people are probably no longer commuting, or only doing so 1-2 days per week...

 

[Big Jumby 74]

.

 

[cvinall]

Let's not forget how inter-linked demand and fares are. I used to be a regular commuter, and am now an occasional one. I have quite a bit of discretion as to how often I commute, and cost is a big factor. If fares were lower, I'd go more often. I enjoy working with my colleagues in person, but that benefit, alone, doesn't justify the fare, as I can get my work done perfectly well at home. Since adding capacity (up to a point) is *relatively* cheap, compared with the (huge) fixed costs of the railway, stimulating more usage with lower fares should be the approach for under-used commuter lines to reduce subsidies, since opportunities for the alternative (cost savings) are very thin.

I hope we don't discard apparently 'excess' stock (eg 458s), as this opportunity to grow revenue will occur to someone soon enough (perhaps once GBR is fully born and thinking for itself), by which time that opportunity may be gone.

This feels a bit like the Beeching philosophy all over again - cuts which yield modest cost savings are regretted in the long term when the cost of re-instatement is orders of magnitude larger than the savings gained.

 

[Snow1964]

How much work has the factory at Derby got nowadays as it comes to the end of 701 build. I know at one time, had 345s then the other AC trains were on different lines side by side.

What I am trying to ask is if the production lines are now emptying out, could they be used to fix the faults they put in at production, so getting them into service could be a few per week (assuming the are now competent to assemble them without faults). I realise some late changes have been requested, but possibly once they get going should be able to do them every few days instead of every few weeks. How long would it take to modify 180 cabs ?

There has to be a trade off between doing the work quicker vs cost of giving extra overhauls to 455s because they run out of mileage otherwise.

 

[Trainbike46]

How much work has the factory at Derby got nowadays as it comes to the end of 701 build. I know at one time, had 345s then the other AC trains were on different lines side by side.

I think they are supposed to start working on HS2 trains next

 

[Big Jumby 74]

..

 

[Mikey C]

The SW was basically full wasn't it, especially Waterloo, before Covid, so even with reduced passenger numbers, it's not as if Tumbleweed is blowing across the stations!

Indeed what's changed are the enormous numbers of peak hour passengers commuting into London, something which has massively distorted the way railways operate in London and the Southeast, hence trains like the fixed formation 12 car 700s which are heavily compromised in terms of comfort to cram in all those rush hour commuters.

 

[Snow1964]

The SW was basically full wasn't it, especially Waterloo, before Covid, so even with reduced passenger numbers, it's not as if Tumbleweed is blowing across the stations!

Indeed what's changed are the enormous numbers of peak hour passengers commuting into London, something which has massively distorted the way railways operate in London and the Southeast, hence trains like the fixed formation 12 car 700s which are heavily compromised in terms of comfort to cram in all those rush hour commuters.

This is only part of the story, until a couple of decades ago there were some suburban workings from about an hour away that would run fast line (Guildford via Cobham and Shepperton via Kingston).

The growth further out (Woking, Farnborough area, Basingstoke etc) meant extra fast line trains so the other services got thinned and moved to slow lines (where they were stuck behind stoppers), they then added the skipped stops to benefit places like Raynes Park and Earlfield.

It seems that the inner suburban is now busier again (relative to outer suburban), but the 2022 timetable wouldn’t have fixed it anyway. So having a big fleet of inner suburban units isn’t a bad thing (although not using 450s on Reading trains and other journeys over an hour is probably wrong). My guess is there is not an excessive number of 701s but really need to get the lost fast line slots back to utilise them properly.

 

[spark001uk]

... they might even be guard close (although with no middle cab on 10 car units it would be interesting to see how you could safely dispatch a crush loaded train, rear cab wouldn’t work from a PTI perspective...

Believe there are GOPs by the doors around the centre of the train.

 

[Bigfoot]

I'm pretty sure there's 2 gops per coach one on each side. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Close and bell/buzzer button.

 

[warwickshire]

Indeed, but we are no further forward than this time last year and I'm afraid in prevailing circumstances I just assume "deferred" actually means "cancelled".

Personally, I doubt if we'll ever see the proposed December timetable. Any changes will be tweaks to the current timetable.

As for the 701s, I can see them being rejected, sent back to Alstom for reconfiguration and "re-ordered" as a Networker replacement programme. Meanwhile SWR will soldier on as the oldest fleet in the country with the 455s overhauled and the 458 rebuild programme cancelled. The punters on the Portsmouth Direct will just have to live with their 450s.

PS The above might seem far-fetched, but we live in "interesting" times.

If 458 programme is cancelled.
458507 458517 will be 4 cars.
More than sure a coach from each has already gone.
Wonder what state of refurbishment these are in.
However unless the 701s do come out more likely December 2022. ? ?
Unless they go for scrap. Bringing back memories of the Apt back in the 1980s
But 40 or so years on. The 701 is a repeat of a project gone. Wrong.
However imagine if the 701s . Followed on behind for scrap to Newport after the Southern 455s. Cannot see it myself.
But imagine if it did.

 

[adc82140]

The 701s won't go for scrap, no matter what happens. Can you imagine the public outcry? Possibly back to the factory to start again, as alluded to further up thread though.

 

[DelW]

If 458 programme is cancelled.
458507 458517 will be 4 cars.
More than sure a coach from each has already gone.
Wonder what state of refurbishment these are in.
However unless the 701s do come out more likely December 2022. ? ?
Unless they go for scrap.
Bringing back memories of the Apt back in the 1980s
But 40 or so years on.
The 701 is a repeat of a project gone. Wrong.
However imagine if the 701s .
Followed on behind for scrap to Newport after the Southern 455s.
Cannot see it myself.
But imagine if it did.

A post in blank verse? (Admittedly I edited it slightly)

E.J.Thribb* himself would have been proud of that epic.

(* A columnist in the popular organ "Private Eye", m'lud)

 

[andrew749]

A post in blank verse? (Admittedly I edited it slightly)

E.J.Thribb* himself would have been proud of that epic.

(* A columnist in the popular organ "Private Eye", m'lud)

Writing in haikus:
That's the way to post on here.
Blank verse is old hat.

 

[Energy]

Writing in haikus:
That's the way to post on here.
Blank verse is old hat.

I agree with that
701s could be rebuilt
Unlikely for scrap

Bit difficult to get information in the 5/7/5 syllables but works.

Anyway depending on what the faults are they could be rebuilt by someone who knows what they are doing if the bodyshell hasn't got problems. I suspect they will enter service at some point, from what it sounds Alstom are fixing the faults, and probably wondering why they bought bombardier

 

[amazon1675]

...and who pays for all this re-working,warm storage,unit moves,unit testing,leasing costs,late delivery penalties..and I guess they are depreciating every day.Have any heads rolled yet...the units haven't in revenue earning service!

 

[Mollman]

...and who pays for all this re-working,warm storage,unit moves,unit testing,leasing costs,late delivery penalties..and I guess they are depreciating every day.Have any heads rolled yet...the units haven't in revenue earning service!

Ultimately Alstom will pay compensation to someone (DfT, ROSCO, TOC) in the form of either money or 'free' train or a mixture of both.

 

[Energy]

Ultimately Alstom will pay compensation to someone (DfT, ROSCO, TOC) in the form of either money or 'free' train or a mixture of both.

2 free 334s were given for their technical problems by Alstom. At this rate we should have enough free 701s to replace the networkers...

 

[InOban]

My understanding from this thread was that 32(?) issues had to be resolved, by modification or repair, and that list had been agreed by the TOC, Alstom and ASLEF. So that when this list is completed for each unit, ASLEF members would operate them in service (after training naturally). ASLEF members are already driving them on test of course, but they are employed by a freight TOC. Their drivers seem able to cope with imperfections.

Am I right?

 

[Bigfoot]

Their drivers seem able to cope with imperfections.

Not in passenger service.

There's a big difference between running around under test conditions with engineers/crew who are all well aware of what is occurring and running a train with the travelling public on board.

But, hell why not. Let's just run them anyway with all their faults, just because they are late.

The fact that the majority of delivered units are still sat powered down in depots not moving. That says more than anything else. There are clearly still big issues that are yet to be cover come.

 

[InOban]

I wasn't suggesting that they were fit for public service. But they could surely start some of the training?

And are you suggesting that although the issues have been identified and agreed, the solutions have not all been?

Has a rectification program been agreed?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Sorry if a stupid question but what's the risk of tyre damage (if any) for units sat around in depots doing nothing, having not turned barely a wheel

 

[AlexNL]

But they could surely start some of the training?

Not if the units have not yet been accepted by SWR or the ROSCO. There are ways around it (e.g. temporarily hiring a unit from the manufacturer) but that's not a given.

Training courses take time and eat into staff availability - as long as it's not a given that units will be accepted it's wiser to remain prudent. This has to do with maintaining competency: if you start training drivers now, but it takes a year before the units enter service, you'll have to give everyone a refresher course as their competency will have lapsed.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not in passenger service.

There's a big difference between running around under test conditions with engineers/crew who are all well aware of what is occurring and running a train with the travelling public on board.

But, hell why not. Let's just run them anyway with all their faults, just because they are late.

The fact that the majority of delivered units are still sat powered down in depots not moving. That says more than anything else. There are clearly still big issues that are yet to be cover come.

Yet 720's are appearing with regularity weekly on GA services now. Would love to know the backstory here why the same company can't deliver the 701's

 

[Goldfish62]

Yet 720's are appearing with regularity weekly on GA services now. Would love to know the backstory here why the same company can't deliver the 701's

Indeed, especially as the later 720s are being built alongside the later 701s.

It really is all most mysterious.