Class 465 and 466 set for storage/scrap: possible uses for them in future?

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ashford train crew depot are now re-learning Class 465 traction after the disgustingly short-sighted decision to let them lapse.

The key reason is a 465/9 and a 466/0 being booked traction for the Maidstone - Blackfriars, as well as a few other random services here and there such as Victoria - Gillingham being all Networker and the peak Tunbridge Wells services staying as such.

But yes, expect them to re-appear via Maidstone East. And fast.

465/2s and the remaining 466s will come back to cover this random stuff off.

Well at least the units still exist and can be returned to traffic unlike some others which are now scrap metal headed to a steelworks somewhere in Asia

 

[Class360/1]

Is a refurbishment of the 376 fleet expected?

Yes, a month ago the MD tweeted in response to a complaint that he was talking to depot staff and designers about the refurbishment. There is a link to the tweet somewhere in the forums.

 

[bspahh]

Yes, a month ago the MD tweeted in response to a complaint that he was talking to depot staff and designers about the refurbishment. There is a link to the tweet somewhere in the forums.

It was this tweet from @SteveWhiteRail https://twitter.com/SteveWhiteRail/status/1523238158460067840

The refurbishment is fully funded and is being planned now. Usually these programmes involve one train at a time so no temporary stock is required.

Its discussed in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/se-376-to-be-refurbished.230973/

 

[gmaguire]

This is good news. I thought for sure they’d go for scrap.

 

[Class 466]

Ashford train crew depot are now re-learning Class 465 traction after the disgustingly short-sighted decision to let them lapse.

The key reason is a 465/9 and a 466/0 being booked traction for the Maidstone - Blackfriars, as well as a few other random services here and there such as Victoria - Gillingham being all Networker and the peak Tunbridge Wells services staying as such.

But yes, expect them to re-appear via Maidstone East. And fast.

465/2s and the remaining 466s will come back to cover this random stuff off.

Give it two weeks or so and they’ll be out is the last I’d heard.

 

[brad465]

Give it two weeks or so and they’ll be out is the last I’d heard.

Are you referring to their return to Maidstone, or the return of those in storage (or both)?

 

[Class 466]

Are you referring to their return to Maidstone, or the return of those in storage (or both)?

The Maidstone bit, No idea if/when the 465/2s come back. There’s a seperate issue affecting 465/9 availability at the moment which may well also help bring the 465/2s back

 

[XCTurbostar]

465240 & 465248 are current on their way to Doncaster.

 

[bramling]

Well at least the units still exist and can be returned to traffic unlike some others which are now scrap metal headed to a steelworks somewhere in Asia

It does make sense to utilise the 465/2s, and indeed it has been fairly widely predicted here they’d be used to release Electrostars to GTR in order to backfill some of the many units they have ditched over the last year or so.

There is some irony though that 25 years ago Maidstone was getting shiny new 365s, yet now they seem likely to get 465/466 in one form or another, which as well as being older than the 365s are to an extent inferior in a number of ways.

It will be interesting to see how long the Networkers last now. It seems to have gone from “likely to be gone in the next franchise” to “could be around for ages now”.

 

[brad465]

It does make sense to utilise the 465/2s, and indeed it has been fairly widely predicted here they’d be used to release Electrostars to GTR in order to backfill some of the many units they have ditched over the last year or so.

There is some irony though that 25 years ago Maidstone was getting shiny new 365s, yet now they seem likely to get 465/466 in one form or another, which as well as being older than the 365s are to an extent inferior in a number of ways.

It will be interesting to see how long the Networkers last now. It seems to have gone from “likely to be gone in the next franchise” to “could be around for ages now”.

The uncertainty over the franchise has certainly bought Networkers more time. Had a completely new award happened in 2014 (rather than the 4 year extension), I think a full Networker refurbishment would have given them a long future, but had a full award happened in 2018, then they could all be on their way to scrap right now. The repeated extensions on a 6-18 month basis have kind of led to an undesirable compromise of the two outcomes: they continue to operate but with no real refurbishment/attention given beyond the minimum necessary to keep running (i.e. PRM modifications).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2022 ==

The Maidstone bit, No idea if/when the 465/2s come back. There’s a seperate issue affecting 465/9 availability at the moment which may well also help bring the 465/2s back

Have 465s actually been running empty down the Maidstone East line at all ahead of their return in passenger service? I know they've been going to/from Ashford, but mainly via the SEML, but I've not seen anything physically pass through, nor any Realtime trains' diagrams that look like such operations.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Times like this when people like me said “Don’t scrap the 365s”, we were right. 455s going now and network-wide issues would have meant 387s could have back-filled down Sussex way and then the rest of the network would have been more stable.

What a state we are in.

 

[Class 466]

Have 465s actually been running empty down the Maidstone East line at all ahead of their return in passenger service? I know they've been going to/from Ashford, but mainly via the SEML, but I've not seen anything physically pass through, nor any Realtime trains' diagrams that look like such operations.

Nope, not that I know of - not that they need to before working a train along there. The ECS to Ashford from Charing X is worked by Ashford Drivers to retain competency until passenger services start.

 

[Chiltern006]

they’ve really shot themselves in the foot with this one. maidstone-blackfriars is supposedly withdrawn from december ttc in favour of charing cross to maidstone. maximum 6 car operations on that line.

what were they thinking! worst comes to worse take them all off the 2Kxx gillinghams (which is mainly 8//375s) and move the 465s back to them, leaving both services with 8 car

 

[brad465]

they’ve really shot themselves in the foot with this one. maidstone-blackfriars is supposedly withdrawn from december ttc in favour of charing cross to maidstone. maximum 6 car operations on that line.

If they run semi-fast to Maidstone I'd have though 8 car would be possible, where Kemsing and Barming could be skipped.

what were they thinking! worst comes to worse take them all off the 2Kxx gillinghams (which is mainly 8//375s) and move the 465s back to them, leaving both services with 8 car

I'm pretty sure most Gillingham stoppers already are 465s, I've been on a few of them this year.

 

[Chiltern006]

ever since the may ttc, most seem to be 8 car 375s

 

[brad465]

ever since the may ttc, most seem to be 8 car 375s

Perhaps the hourly off-peak frequency is largely 375s, then 465s make up the peak extras which doubles the service frequency. I would have thought when it comes to stop-start performance, which matters on a stopping service pattern like the Gillingham stoppers, 465s would be better than 375s, accepting interior comfort is inferior. Pre-covid almost all GLM/RTR stoppers were 6-car, as the higher service intensity meant almost everything SE had was being used in the peaks, regardless of class type.

 

[bramling]

Times like this when people like me said “Don’t scrap the 365s”, we were right. 455s going now and network-wide issues would have meant 387s could have back-filled down Sussex way and then the rest of the network would have been more stable.

What a state we are in.

There are of course still the 379s if more Electrostars are required, though (1) the industry is clearly playing a game of brinkmanship with the owners over the costs, and (2) it isn’t clear what’s going to happen over GWR.

Completely agree the 365s shouldn’t have been withdrawn let alone scrapped. Certainly in GN land, it’s now quite common to see moans on local social media on the lines of “what’s happened to the trains which used to start from Baldock?” or “I’m sure there used to be a nice fast train to/from London which doesn’t seem to exist any more”.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Interesting to see that as 465240 and 465258 went to Doncaster, 465912 was sent to Ely from Doncaster..

 

[Doomotron]

This is good news. I thought for sure they’d go for scrap.

It was a common suggestion but was never based in fact, as was the case of the belief they'd move to Southern.

 

[43102EMR]

ever since the may ttc, most seem to be 8 car 375s

Doesn’t help that 377163 and 164 moved back to Southern just before the May TTC - (hopefully) not long until the 23 377/5s follow.

 

[brad465]

The Maidstone bit, No idea if/when the 465/2s come back. There’s a seperate issue affecting 465/9 availability at the moment which may well also help bring the 465/2s back

Interesting to see that as 465240 and 465258 went to Doncaster, 465912 was sent to Ely from Doncaster..

Could these be linked?

 

[Wolfie]

Why does Southern need 23 377/5s when there are only 19 313s to replace and the 313s aren't used that intensively?

Why does Southeastern need 465/2s to replace the 377/5s?

Why can't the issue be addressed by shorter formations on Southeastern, who don't appear to have yet had the fleet reductions seen on SWR and Southern. Have Southeastern had a net lost of any stock post March 2020, given the 707s displaced the 465/2s and handful of 466s out of service?

Surely Southeastern is seeing the same reduction in peak time passenger volume and revenue seen elsewhere.

Southeastern pre-COVID was of course ridiculously short of stock unlike the other TOCs you mention.

 

[59CosG95]

Could these be linked?

It could perhaps be a temporary measure pending the transfer of the 377/5s, or possibly to make room at Doncaster.

 

[Class455]

It could perhaps be a temporary measure pending the transfer of the 377/5s, or possibly to make room at Doncaster.

Think 465912 had been at Doncaster for a while, not sure why.

 

[brad465]

The appreciation society on Facebook has couple of members reporting 465912 has body work cracking as the reason for it going to Ely. Presumably if this is the case that unit has had it, unless they want it out of way while 465/2s are revived as a higher priority?

UK Rail Log has updated the 3x units that have moved between Ely and Doncaster today, but looking back through the log there are some 465/9s and a few 466s that have maintenance messages dating from 2021 or early 2022, that would either imply they've been there for several months, or have not been updated in a while. Can anyone clarify more on this please?

 

[XCTurbostar]

The appreciation society on Facebook has couple of members reporting 465912 has body work cracking as the reason for it going to Ely. Presumably if this is the case that unit has had it, unless they want it out of way while 465/2s are revived as a higher priority?

465912 arrived at Doncaster on Jan 29th and had appeared to have remained fairly static. I would imagine if there are bodywork issues, assessments are being conducted. Images I've seen today suggest at all bogies of 912 have been refurbished though..

 

[Mikey C]

Southeastern pre-COVID was of course ridiculously short of stock unlike the other TOCs you mention.

An awful lot of housing is being built in SE London too

 

[ScotGG]

Yep S.e London and north Kent are designated areas for major new housing growth under government targets. Some of the largest in the country.

Will the 465/2s even be in usable condition? They've been in store more than a year now with much of that in cold storage. They were also unreliable before withdrawal and never had re-tractioning as the others did back in the late 2000s.

This seems like a bit of a panic move. Probably due to the 707s not coming over anytime soon and a rush to scrap the 365s and 455s.

 

[Class455]

Yep S.e London and north Kent are designated areas for major new housing growth under government targets. Some of the largest in the country.

Will the 465/2s even be in usable condition? They've been in store for how long now - a couple of years? And much of that in cold storage. They were also unreliable before withdrawal and never had re-tractioning as the others did back in the late 2000s.

This seems like a bit of a panic move. Probably due to the 707s not coming over anytime soon and a rush to scrap the 365s and 455s.

They’ve only been in storage since this time last year so not long!

 

[ScotGG]

13 months it seems and about 7-8 in cold storage. What happens in cold storage - are they regularly checked for example for faults? They were in poor nick before heading with water getting in.