Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Andypandy1968]

The one thing I do not understand is why the unions (especially for signallers/drivers) went straight for strike action and not work to rule / overtime ban.

The beauty of overtime ban/work to rule is it inserts uncertainty into the timetable. Just look at all the cancellations that happen due to a shortage of train crew. The higher levels that plan/organise meltdown when there are unplanned cancellations leading to more chaos.

TOCs/Passengers hate uncertainty as it causes last minute cancellations and unplanned disruption !! With a full on strike, there is a lot more certainty so TOCs can plan their resources a lot more easily.

Couldn't agree more. After all, what was the point on the ballot paper of the question 'woukd you support action short of a strike?'

 

[Clarence Yard]

Individual overtime bans are unofficially going on at the moment in some TOCs, leading to the uncertainty mentioned above where as in others overtime is being used to recoup money lost on strike days. Work to rules are harder to put in these days because not all of the workforce is unionised so it is easier for management to pick off individuals who are being difficult.

It’s still easy for drivers to do this - failing units for trivialities was always a particularly effective way of stopping the job.

 

[Shrop]

Push people into cars? You mean the ones they can't afford to run due to the price of fuel?

That's them yes. The same ones who can't afford holidays but still rush to airports in their droves even when flights stand a fair chance of being cancelled

 

[Fokx]

Does that really apply today, or do an ever increasing number of the workforce simply see them as a means to an end, ie just a job?

It’s just a job.

One that I love, with the best working conditions in my career, but at the end of the day it’s just a job

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2022 ==

The one thing I do not understand is why the unions (especially for signallers/drivers) went straight for strike action and not work to rule / overtime ban.

The beauty of overtime ban/work to rule is it inserts uncertainty into the timetable. Just look at all the cancellations that happen due to a shortage of train crew. The higher levels that plan/organise go into meltdown when there are unplanned cancellations leading to more chaos.

TOCs/Passengers hate uncertainty as it causes last minute cancellations and unplanned disruption !! With a full on strike, there is a lot more certainty so TOCs can plan their resources a lot more easily.

Because most TOC’s were already undertaking an overtime or rest day ban.

 

[Goldfish62]

The time for supermarket and supply chain staff to mass strike is so overdue. They desperately need a stronger union.

Nothing to do with having a "stronger" union. They'd simply be sacked and replaced with agency staff.

Note the RMT's weakness in maritime. They're not a "strong" union there because they have comparatively little bargaining power.

The RMT's strength comes from the nature and structure of the rail industry.

 

[Shrop]

Good managers are key to running any business but seemingly a rarity on the modern day railway. TOC's these days seem to think anyone can be turned into a manager simply by quoting buzzwords at interview or by being in the local clique and then by attending some in house training course. I've worked with some shockers in the past.

Time was when some genuine rail enthusiasm was seen as an asset. Then there was a time when branding someone as a "trainspotter" was seen as something to joke about, which meant that genuine rail enthusiasts became cautious about admitting their interest. These days we ought to be more enlightened and genuine rail enthusiasm ought once again to be seen as an asset. I'd say it counts for more than an ability to use buzzwords etc, especially when all too often that's almost the ONLY skill they have. Very sad that interviewers fall for it so often.

 

[Goldfish62]

Time was when some genuine rail enthusiasm was seen as an asset. Then there was a time when branding someone as a "trainspotter" was seen as something to joke about, which meant that genuine rail enthusiasts became cautious about admitting their interest. These days we ought to be more enlightened and genuine rail enthusiasm ought once again to be seen as an asset. I'd say it counts for more than an ability to use buzzwords etc, especially when all too often that's almost the ONLY skill they have. Very sad that interviewers fall for it so often.

It's a modern-day phenomonen everywhere, not just the railways and not just confined to the UK.

 

[LowLevel]

Individual overtime bans are unofficially going on at the moment in some TOCs, leading to the uncertainty mentioned above where as in others overtime is being used to recoup money lost on strike days. Work to rules are harder to put in these days because not all of the workforce is unionised so it is easier for management to pick off individuals who are being difficult.

It’s still easy for drivers to do this - failing units for trivialities was always a particularly effective way of stopping the job.

Our TOC appears to be playing a fairly sensible game - we are being kept to our time and banned from shift swaps etc on strike weeks, but otherwise they're not treating us particularly badly and we are reciprocating, as far as I can see - that includes not sacrificing what is a pretty busy train service to kill off overtime.

As a senior official of the company may have said off the record to a picket recently - this time it doesn't feel personal and we are in the business of running trains to get people to where they need to be.

Who knows if a firmer line from the Government may come down at some point but it certainly feels like business as usual outside strike weeks.

 

[Shrop]

It’s just a job.

One that I love, with the best working conditions in my career, but at the end of the day it’s just a job.

So.perhaps it actually is a bit more than just a job. Good to hear! I had to take a transport job in roads in the 1970s as the railways were too busy redeploying after Beeching, but I'd have willingly taken a rail job for less money.

 

[XAM2175]

Time was when some genuine rail enthusiasm was seen as an asset. Then there was a time when branding someone as a "trainspotter" was seen as something to joke about, which meant that genuine rail enthusiasts became cautious about admitting their interest. These days we ought to be more enlightened and genuine rail enthusiasm ought once again to be seen as an asset. I'd say it counts for more than an ability to use buzzwords etc, especially when all too often that's almost the ONLY skill they have. Very sad that interviewers fall for it so often.

I would suggest, with respect, that a system of appointing people who are prepared to work for low pay and in relatively poor conditions simply because they are enthusiasts is a system that would result in hiring a great deal more cranks wanting to play with trains than it would any other category of worker.

 

[Mag_seven]

The one thing I do not understand is why the unions (especially for signallers/drivers) went straight for strike action and not work to rule / overtime ban.

The beauty of overtime ban/work to rule is it inserts uncertainty into the timetable. Just look at all the cancellations that happen due to a shortage of train crew. The higher levels that plan/organise go into meltdown when there are unplanned cancellations leading to more chaos.

TOCs/Passengers hate uncertainty as it causes last minute cancellations and unplanned disruption !! With a full on strike, there is a lot more certainty so TOCs can plan their resources a lot more easily.

I would like to think that "causing chaos" to customers is not a mindset that prevails in most railway employees. In any other industry people who display such contempt for customers (regardless of the circumstances) would be shown the door.

 

[TUC]

That's them yes. The same ones who can't afford holidays but still rush to airports in their droves even when flights stand a fair chance of being cancelled

No, ones who sensibly see that there are many journeys for which, even now, if two or more people are travelling the car is a much cheaper option than rail. That's making good use of their money.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The one thing I do not understand is why the unions (especially for signallers/drivers) went straight for strike action and not work to rule / overtime ban.

But people have said that strikes were a last resort in the past and I think one such example occurred upon this thread. I wonder what the exact truth of the matter is. Do some rail unions regard strike action differently from other rail unions in that respect?

 

[Shrop]

I would suggest, with respect, that a system of appointing people who are prepared to work for low pay and in relatively poor conditions simply because they are enthusiasts is a system that would result in hiring a great deal more cranks wanting to play with trains than it would any other category of worker.

There's a sensible midway reality, it's just not great to have people who are brilliant at buzzwords but who aren't capable of delivering a reasonable service to customers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would like to think that "causing chaos" to customers is not a mindset that prevails in most railway employees. In any other industry people who display such contempt for customers (regardless of the circumstances) would be shown the door.

I am not sure whether it was on this website or on the SkyScraper City website some time ago when a member of a rail union that was in a running strike action (the TOC I think was Northern) made reference to rail passengers as "Collateral Damage".

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Unfortunately for the RMT and the No Sympathy, How-dare-you-want-something-you-were-looking-forward-to-you'll-go-without-and-be-grateful brigade, Winchester City will be at home on the 20th August.

The other fixtures are for me to know and them to not find out.

 

[Andypandy1968]

That's them yes. The same ones who can't afford holidays but still rush to airports in their droves even when flights stand a fair chance of being cancelled

Not the end of the world when the compensation is often more than the cost of the flight

 

[choochoochoo]

I would like to think that "causing chaos" to customers is not a mindset that prevails in most railway employees. In any other industry people who display such contempt for customers (regardless of the circumstances) would be shown the door.

What is the purpose of a strike ? To withdraw labour to inconvenience the employer ? That inevitably causes chaos.

If strikes had no noticeable effect then there’s not much point in them.

Besides according to grant shapps the strikes in their current form already are ‘bringing misery’

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would like to think that "causing chaos" to customers is not a mindset that prevails in most railway employees. In any other industry people who display such contempt for customers (regardless of the circumstances) would be shown the door.

Indeed, and I think it’s a shame they don’t do the same in this industry.

 

[footprints]

What is the purpose of a strike ? To withdraw labour to inconvenience the employer ? That inevitably causes chaos.

If strikes had no noticeable effect then there’s not much point in them.

Besides according to grant shapps the strikes in their current form already are ‘bringing misery’

What chaos was caused by the three days of strike action so far? Most commuters worked from home, crowds flocked to Glastonbury regardless. I thought the RMT were supposed to be bringing the nation to a gridlocked standstill?

 

[mandub]

I would like to think that "causing chaos" to customers is not a mindset that prevails in most railway employees. In any other industry people who display such contempt for customers (regardless of the circumstances) would be shown the door.

It isn't a mindset that prevails.
No one at my depot is failing trains that are fine to run. Nothing at all like that going on.

We're not doing any of the normal 'favours' like coming in early/staying late at short notice but tbf the managers are rarely asking us to now as they know the situation.
Other than that we're mostly just concentrating on moaning to each other about the dispute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2022 ==

No one thinks the strikes will cause chaos, or need to cause chaos to have any effect. Of course people work around strikes, make alternate plans, always have.

Any success of withdrawal of our labour will just be in hopefully showing the DFT the strength of discontent & encouraging them to work with Aslef for a moderate but real pay award.

We know we aren't bringing the country to a halt and no one in the messroom thinks we could/should.

 

[Smidster]

What chaos was caused by the three days of strike action so far? Most commuters worked from home, crowds flocked to Glastonbury regardless. I thought the RMT were supposed to be bringing the nation to a gridlocked standstill?

Have to agree - Vast majority of people wouldn't have known that there was a strike on and those that did made other plans.

The idea that, on the 21st Century railway, strikes are going to bring employers / the country to their knees and find the money tree is just fanciful.

 

[Bald Rick]

I appreciate you say you're close to the Government, so hear all sorts of mad ramblings, but are you really suggesting that a serious option is the closure of the railway? Over what we're told is a strike that is supposedly irrelevant, which could be ended with what would be fairly trivial changes in the offer being made, in the grand scheme of things. Instead, this increasingly bizarre nation would sooner consider abandoning it instead. I suppose the world is coming to expect the unique choices Britain makes, however at odds they are with global norms, but this would be quite something.

Either you're just stoking the flames or you're being served the kool aid at Great Minster House.

I should stress that I am not involved with the industrial relations strategy in this dispute.

What I am saying, though, is that in any dispute such as this the employer will have an exit strategy. And that has to cover all possible options, including options if all reasonable attempts have been made at negotiation without success. That could lead to closure of some or part of the system, most probably temporarily.

To be fair the union strategy is to close most of the network - temporarily of course.

So strikes are now aimed at the, current, busiest day of the week - Saturday.

the busiest day of the week is Friday. Saturdays have about 20-25% fewer passengers than a Friday.

 

[142blue]

I would suggest, with respect, that a system of appointing people who are prepared to work for low pay and in relatively poor conditions simply because they are enthusiasts is a system that would result in hiring a great deal more cranks wanting to play with trains than it would any other category of worker.

I wouldn't be given spotters / enthusiasts a job for the sake of it. Too busy taking pictures

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the purpose of a strike ? To withdraw labour to inconvenience the employer ? That inevitably causes chaos.

Could withdrawal of labour be seen as being something that an employer sees as employees not wishing to work for the employer and to take the action that would constitute the closure of the company, as without employees willing to work, no company can exist.

Going back to the much earlier days of the railways, which was the last railway company to impose a lockout strategy and in what year did that occur?

 

[LowLevel]

What is the purpose of a strike ? To withdraw labour to inconvenience the employer ? That inevitably causes chaos.

If strikes had no noticeable effect then there’s not much point in them.

Besides according to grant shapps the strikes in their current form already are ‘bringing misery’

Measuring it in terms of cancelled trains is an outdated view, in my opinion. I don't want to mess the public about, I mostly like them. Strength of feeling and loss of management time in producing and operating mitigations is in my opinion a much more appropriate measurement. I don't celebrating messing people's lives up, it just makes me feel sad. I don't come to work every day to help and look after people to then be celebrating mucking them about when we are at the end of our tether with an industrial dispute.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And, remind me please, under which party was the already-started Channel Tunnel cancelled, and under which party was it constructed ?

One of the reasons for cancellation in 1975 was the impact of severe inflation from the 1973/4 oil crisis.
It meant there was no trust in cost estimates to complete the job (there were other factors of course*).
The danger for current projects like HS2 is that costs will similarly balloon out of control.

* eg a balance of payments crisis, BR demanding a new route into London, unable to cancel Concorde, etc
The oil embargo was itself a result of Middle East wars.
It would have been worse if it hadn't been for North Sea oil and gas coming on stream soon after.
Also the 1987 Channel Tunnel project was at private expense, unlike the one in 1975.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am trying to remember the Fawlty Towers sketch where Basil has a rant about strikes in a large organisation. It could be "The Kipper and the Corpse" episode. I would be pleased if a link to that could be posted on this thread.

 

[Mag_seven]

The announcement of the two additional RMT strikes last night seemed odd - its almost as if they felt pressurised into announcing an additional two strikes as maybe they felt the one already announced was not putting enough pressure on NR to come back to the table with a revised offer?

 

[Bantamzen]

The time for supermarket and supply chain staff to mass strike is so overdue. They desperately need a stronger union.

Wait? You are hoping for supply chain staff to down tools? Can you not see the slightly obvious problem there? It's one thing rail staff disrupting travel, but effectively stopping essential supplies like food? As someone upthread said, they would be out of the door and replaced but it would still cause chaos.

I get the impression that some on here think a few strikes and banner waving is capable of bringing down governments. Well I'm sorry to say that to oust a government without a democratic vote, or violent coup is extremely unlikely, and may even result in relation from the government through legislation. Which is exactly what this government seem to be planning.

<broken record warning>

Sometimes you have to pick your fights...