Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[Watershed]

Considering the matter further, as contactless tickets are only useable on the TfL Elizabeth line they would seem to be the equivalent of TOC-specific tickets whereby ALL the income goes to that TOC.

They are usable on all TOCs in the area of validity, i.e. including GWR out to Reading.

I don't know what allocation model is used for PAYG journeys but I imagine it is similar to ORCATS.

 

[coppercapped]

They are usable on all TOCs in the area of validity, i.e. including GWR out to Reading.

I don't know what allocation model is used for PAYG journeys but I imagine it is similar to ORCATS.

So can I wave my card or iPhone at a barrier at, say, Platform 3 at Paddington and use an IET to Reading? Are there any card readers for Platform 1?

 

[JonathanH]

So can I wave my card or iPhone at a barrier at, say, Platform 3 at Paddington and use an IET to Reading?

Yes. At exactly the same fare as on a TfL Rail service. It has been possible to use GWR services ever since Contactless was extended to Reading.

Are there any card readers for Platform 1?

Yes, and platforms 8 and 9 if you can't find the readers on platform 1.

 

[Horizon22]

What about the Hex barriers at Paddington or the Gex barriers at Victoria? And the overall share of revenue between NR/Tfl on Oyster/Contactless/Travelcards. Are no adjustments made?

Platform 6/7 (and lower level platforms) default to HEX. So this is known, but airport express services are different in their calculations.

Always an issue during disruption / engineering works although staff trying and work their way around this by guiding people to the card validators.

 

[JonathanH]

Platform 6/7 (and lower level platforms) default to HEX. So this is known, but airport express services are different in their calculations.

You will still get charged the fare to Reading if you touch in on platform 6/7 at Paddington and out at Reading. Clearly the case where you would get overcharged is on a hypothetical TfL Rail service from platform 6 or 7 to Heathrow.

The only issue is that those barriers do not provide an out of station interchange for through journeys.

 

[Horizon22]

You will still get charged the fare to Reading if you touch in on platform 6/7 at Paddington and out at Reading. Clearly the case where you would get overcharged is on a hypothetical TfL Rail service from platform 6 or 7 to Heathrow.

The only issue is that those barriers do not provide an out of station interchange for through journeys.

Yes I was referring to Heathrow only. Reading makes no difference.

 

[Brush 4]

You can tell it has been a great success from day 1, because there has been total silence from the media since opening day. As soon as there is a hitch, they will be down on it like a ton of bricks. Great that it has been so successful. When it is complete, I will use it just for pleasure, as I live over 100 miles away so, regular usage won't be happening.

Remember the 'Misery Line'? The media's gleeful name for the LTS in the 70's and 80's. Then it was given a complete revamp, new trains and upgrades. Now we hear nothing about it nationally, a sure sign of success.

 

[Jimini]

Remember the 'Misery Line'?

That was the less than affectionate moniker for the northern line in the early '00s (to be fair it was pretty abysmal back in those days). Then TfL started rolling out ATO on the Jubilee line a couple of years later, and the baton was duly passed..

 

[ijmad]

That was the less than affectionate moniker for the northern line in the early '00s (to be fair it was pretty abysmal back in those days). Then TfL started rolling out ATO on the Jubilee line a couple of years later, and the baton was duly passed..

The Northern and Jubilee are both now fully ATO lines and are mid table in terms of reliability. I think I recall that the Piccadilly Line is now the worst performing line, not really a surprise given its signalling is 100 years old, and the District Line, which still suffers from signal failures in the parts where CBTC is yet to be deployed.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

You can tell it has been a great success from day 1, because there has been total silence from the media since opening day. As soon as there is a hitch, they will be down on it like a ton of bricks. Great that it has been so successful.

I remember the furore when Terminal 5 at Heathrow opened. The problems were front page news for days on end. As soon as the problems were sorted out, media interest evaporated.

 

[Falcon1200]

Isn't it just a short walk from the H&C platforms to the high-numbered main line platforms through the footbridge?

I wouldn't say so, no, it is a fair distance, partly over quite a narrow footbridge, and as I said earlier, much further from all the station facilities.

 

[ijmad]

Occurred to me, if one of the two escalators at the Barbican end of Farringdon goes out of service, I assume they would need to make it one way only?

I still think there aren't enough escalators at some of these stations.

 

[Snow1964]

Due to incident the TfL status boards for Elizabeth line showing following.

No service between Slough and Reading while the emergency services deal with a casualty on the track.
SEVERE DELAYS between Paddington and Slough. GOOD SERVICE on the rest of the line. London Underground are accepting tickets via all reasonable routes.

My question is what use is there offering Underground ticket acceptance between Reading and Slough, surely something like GWR services or if all 4 lines blocked SWR services would be rather more practical.

Rather makes you wonder if anyone in the control room (located in East at Romford) has ever travelled on Elizabeth line to Reading.

 

[TFN]

My question is what use is there offering Underground ticket acceptance between Reading and Slough, surely something like GWR services or if all 4 lines blocked SWR services would be rather more practical.

To allow customers from Paddington to use the Bakerloo Line to Waterloo and to connect with SWR services from there?

 

[Mojo]

Due to incident the TfL status boards for Elizabeth line showing following.


My question is what use is there offering Underground ticket acceptance between Reading and Slough, surely something like GWR services or if all 4 lines blocked SWR services would be rather more practical.

Rather makes you wonder if anyone in the control room (located in East at Romford) has ever travelled on Elizabeth line to Reading.

There are a number of Underground routes that would be useful as alternatives to severe delays and suspensions to Elizabeth line services.

Piccadilly line to Heathrow (and some intermediate stations are close by for instance Boston Manor is near Hanwell)
District or Central lines to Ealing Bdy
Met like to Uxbridge (short bus or car ride to Iver, West Drayton, Hayes & Harlington)
Cross-London transfer to Waterloo for South Western service to Reading

 

[Acton1991]

Travelled back from Terminal 5 this evening on the Elizabeth line and I do wonder whether 2tph from T5 is the ultimate goal? Doesn’t really allow for a turn up and go service from BA’s hub terminal.

 

[Snow1964]

The TfL Board Elizabeth Line committee papers for next weeks meeting are now published

(haven’t yet looked through them as very long), 19 items on the agenda (including the restricted part 2)

Agenda for Elizabeth Line Committee on Thursday 14 July 2022, 10:00 - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

 

[swt_passenger]

Travelled back from Terminal 5 this evening on the Elizabeth line and I do wonder whether 2tph from T5 is the ultimate goal? Doesn’t really allow for a turn up and go service from BA’s hub terminal.

It’s not that long ago there weren’t going to be any T5 trains at all. I expect it’s very much a case of one step at a time…

 

[miklcct]

It’s not that long ago there weren’t going to be any T5 trains at all. I expect it’s very much a case of one step at a time…

Is the long term goal to be T5 only Heathrow Express, and T4 only Elizabeth line, each running every 15 minutes?

 

[JN114]

Is the long term goal to be T5 only Heathrow Express, and T4 only Elizabeth line, each running every 15 minutes?

No

The last “long term” plan was:-

4tph Elizabeth Line Terminal 4
2tph Elizabeth Line Terminal 5
4tph Heathrow Express Terminal 5

 

[swt_passenger]

Is the long term goal to be T5 only Heathrow Express, and T4 only Elizabeth line, each running every 15 minutes?

The current/future plan has already been mentioned by @JN114, but if you went back a few years, (5 or 6 maybe), the 2 Crossrail trains to Heathrow T5 weren’t on the plan at all, but there would have been two trains per hour terminating at West Drayton. A turnback platform was opened there for that purpose, but TfL managed to get the two trains into Heathrow added at a fairly late stage in timetable development.

 

[Taunton]

Travelled back from Terminal 5 this evening on the Elizabeth line and I do wonder whether 2tph from T5 is the ultimate goal? Doesn’t really allow for a turn up and go service from BA’s hub terminal.

One can take the first train, maybe the Express, from T5, and change at Heathrow Central T23 to the next Elizabeth, on the same platform. The Express is free between the Heathrow stations.

Somewhat confusing for overseas visitors, and I suspect a pattern that won't last long after through running starts.

 

[kevin_roche]

The TfL Board Elizabeth Line committee papers for next weeks meeting are now published

(haven’t yet looked through them as very long), 19 items on the agenda (including the restricted part 2)

Agenda for Elizabeth Line Committee on Thursday 14 July 2022, 10:00 - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

Thank you for spotting that. The key points I see are:

3 Performance of Operational Service

3.1 TfL Rail/the Elizabeth line delivered a Public Performance Measure of 95.1
per cent during Period 2 (1 – 28 May 2022). Following the start of revenue
service on 24 May 2022, performance in the central section between
Paddington and Abbey Wood was 97.8 per cent over the first five days of
service, with 100 per cent delivered for three of those five days. Performance
on the east was 95.9 per cent during period 02 whilst the west was 93.3 per
cent. The overall Moving Annual Average trend was recorded at 94.0 per cent.

3.3 By the end of 20 June 2022, the Elizabeth line had seen around 10.25 million
passenger journeys across the whole route since it launched on 24 May 2022,
around five million are estimated to have involved the central section from
Paddington to Abbey Wood. The central section of the Elizabeth line is
currently seeing at least 200,000 journeys being made most weekdays.

3.5 Work will continue in engineering hours and on Sundays to allow a series of
testing and software updates in preparation for more intensive services later
this year. By using Sundays and some Saturdays, we anticipate that the next
phase of the Elizabeth line will be complete this autumn, thereby enabling a
much earlier near doubling of train service through the central section and
direct journeys from the east and west through the central tunnels. One full
weekend closure took place on 11/12 June 2022, with two additional closures
scheduled for 30/31 July and 29/30 October 2022.

3.6 The programme has been focussed on further improving the reliability of the
railway following the commissioning of the major signalling software update
ELR200 software at Easter. A subsequent update, ELR201, was
commissioned during the planned weekend closure on 11/12 June 2022 to
restore some aspects of functionality that had regressed in ELR200.

5 Stage 5B

5.1 The plan to complete the end-to-end railway entails three steps: 5B-minus
which will provide a 22 trains per hour peak (16 trains per hour off-peak)
frequency in the central section (Paddington – Whitechapel) which can
commence outside of a National Rail timetable change but requires a 16-week
notice period; and stages 5B and 5C both of which step up the peak
frequency to 24 trains per hour but require auto-reverse and will be
implemented to align with the National Rail timetable change. A T-minus
process is being established that builds on the approach taken to countdown
to commence revenue service of the Elizabeth line.

5.2 Reliability will be a key factor in commencing and moving through the Stage 5
stages with the reliability on each of the west, central and east sections
needing focus and management. A further timetable trial for 20 trains per hour
was undertaken on 19 June 2022. Particular attention is also currently on the
transitions which will be key to support Stage 5. The transition at Stratford
between the central and surface sections is an important part of Stage 5
services and needs to be highly reliable. Work is underway, with our signalling
supplier, to build this reliability to the level required for passenger services.

 

[Horizon22]

Due to incident the TfL status boards for Elizabeth line showing following.


My question is what use is there offering Underground ticket acceptance between Reading and Slough, surely something like GWR services or if all 4 lines blocked SWR services would be rather more practical.

Rather makes you wonder if anyone in the control room (located in East at Romford) has ever travelled on Elizabeth line to Reading.

GWR and Elizabeth Line ticket acceptance is mutual in severe delays & SWR was also provided, not sure why that isn’t on a message - presumably because it has already been paged by GWR. Not that GWR would have made any different given as you say 4 lines blocked for hours.

There’s also local bus ticket acceptance, including outside London. A Slough shuttle was at least running.

Is the long term goal to be T5 only Heathrow Express, and T4 only Elizabeth line, each running every 15 minutes?

If you look at RTT at somewhere like Southall, you can take a good estimate and what might fill in the gaps with missing headcodes. The timetables are all “through running ready” so that a start date of Autumn is feasible and not necessarily immediately reliant on a December TT change.

 

[Taunton]

The TfL Board Elizabeth Line committee papers for next weeks meeting are now published

(haven’t yet looked through them as very long), 19 items on the agenda (including the restricted part 2)

Agenda for Elizabeth Line Committee on Thursday 14 July 2022, 10:00 - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

It seems the next "through running" stage will have 22tph peak, 16tph off-peak. As services will be split between the two eastern branches, it seems the off-peak service at Canary Wharf etc will be knocked back from the current 12tph to 8tph, a significant reduction. Is this intended to be permanent?

Also, that things cannot apparently be advanced to a slightly more even peak 24tph until the much-vaunted auto-reverse is finally got working at Westbourne Park. Given that only half the trains, 12tph, reverse there, in three reversal sidings, one does wonder why it is so essential to have this working there when the current service at that reversal frequency works fine without it (and at Abbey Wood, on just two tracks).

 

[JN114]

Given that only half the trains, 12tph, reverse there, in three reversal sidings, one does wonder why it is so essential to have this working there when the current service at that reversal frequency works fine without it (and at Abbey Wood, on just two tracks).

I’m sure it’s been explained to you before; but to reiterate.

Westbourne Park has to be capable of turning the full train service in the event Elizabeth Line trains cannot access the NR lines west of Paddington.

That means theoretically turning 24tph, with no ability to change crews etc in the process to speed it up.

That is why auto reverse is needed for 24tph.

 

[DC1989]

They have also said the next stage is 'Autumn' but there's a weekend closure on 29/30th October - meaning next stage wouldn't open until November at the earliest. That's pushing the definition of Autumn!!

 

[miklcct]

They have also said the next stage is 'Autumn' but there's a weekend closure on 29/30th October - meaning next stage wouldn't open until November at the earliest. That's pushing the definition of Autumn!!

Autumn officially ends at about 7 or 8 November using the traditional Chinese definition, so it's still in proper autumn if it is done early November.

 

[Snow1964]

They have also said the next stage is 'Autumn' but there's a weekend closure on 29/30th October - meaning next stage wouldn't open until November at the earliest. That's pushing the definition of Autumn!!

There is another document (can’t find it at moment), but it was a previous TfL Board meeting, that 16 weeks notice has to be given. The aim is to open Bond Street same time as implement stage 5B- minus

There are also rumours (never seen anything formal) that want it open before the Oxford Street Christmas shopping period starts (presumably switch on of lights in November).

In practice >16 weeks and before Christmas lights is just first few days of November

 

[Horizon22]

They have also said the next stage is 'Autumn' but there's a weekend closure on 29/30th October - meaning next stage wouldn't open until November at the earliest. That's pushing the definition of Autumn!!

A good railway rule: "Whenever a season is mentioned, presume opening is the last date of said season."