UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bald Rick]

The current car trend seems to be to get you to finance them, and it's worrying that even cheap car brands like Kia and Hyundai are joining the bandwagon.

Current trend? My Dad bought a new car on finance - in 1971! A significant majority of new cars bought by private individuals are bought on finance, and have been for a long time. Look at all those new small German cars out there being driven by twenty somethings; how many of them have £30-£40k in the bank? But £300-£400 a month is much easier

 

[ashkeba]

Which brings me back to heat pumps too. In general an air-source heat pump is only 2:1 efficient across the year, from several long-term studies I have read. Yes, in the summer they can manage 4:1, maybe more, but in the winter they are little better than resistive heaters (and under some conditions they are worse), mainly due to having to reach high temperatures for the hot water to the taps (they get less efficient as they work harder) so however you look at it, they will cost twice as much to run as a gas boiler (four times the fuel cost but uses half the amount of fuel).

That is almost exactly the reverse of the real-world domestic performance. The performance in summer is lower (typically 2.5:1) because almost all of it is heading domestic hot water, which uses a higher water temperature than domestic heating, which heat pumps are less efficient an. In winter, more lower-temperature water is used in the heating loop so the overall performance is around 4:1, but it is in UK autumn and spring that optimal performance is achieved by smart controllers putting the cool-down heat after a late-sunny-afternoon water tank heating period into the heating system which then may not need to run again until teh late evening... but the average performance is dominated by the winter figure because that is when heating is most used.

I do not recall seeing any recent model perform worse than resistive heaters over a whole day except when broken. Maybe "under some conditions" means an hour where the heat pump needs to do a defrost cycle soon after startup, which is rare in most of the UK, maybe 1 to 3 days a year.

It is better to try these things than rely on reading. They are currently competitive with mains gas boilers and much better than bottled gas or oil ones, but things will change further in future.

Returning to electric vehicles: heat pumps are of minor relevance to the grid load at times when EVs will charge because EVs are far better suited to using local solar generation, which offers most energy at the time heat pumps are least used, and the two things seem to use similar kW. Nighttime charging may also not be a problem because "set back" (most people want a slightly cooler house overnight for easier sleeping) means that many heat pumps do not run 2300-0400 or so... and smart controllers could choose between EV charging and heat pump activation if needed to manage load.

But the best way to switch to EVs successfully would be to use smaller EVs for single-person urban journeys: e-bikes. Their 15mph legal limit is higher than the average speed of motor traffic in most urbanicies anyway.

 

[py_megapixel]

The only thing that I find in favour of touch screens is that it takes too much attention to set the satnav or make a call while driving. Knobs and buttons I can use without taking my attention off the road.

Don't most modern cars have buttons on the steering wheel to control the same things as the toucchscreen?

 

[jon0844]

Don't most modern cars have buttons on the steering wheel to control the same things as the toucchscreen?

In my experience it will be for things like cruise control, volume/inputs and maybe voice control.

 

[reddragon]

We are on the verge of a huge model shift in urban areas.

In cities on street parking is very costly, off street parking is limited and very costly and there is a drive to remove cars from residential areas instead making them pedestrian / cycling only. Despite the gutter press hating low traffic areas, voters & residents love them.

The growing model is dedicated car club bays with an EV & a charger. That will remove 90% of the cars cluttering up the streets and provide not only a cheaper access to a car for the majority but a greater incentive to use e-bikes & public transport. You choose, pay train / bus fare or a car by the hour. I guess a smart card for all options will appear!

This model can work with an EV as they require minimal maintenance & free charging is included. Unplug in & charge period starts, plug in & it ends! ICEs cannot fit this model.

 

[MattRat]

Current trend? My Dad bought a new car on finance - in 1971! A significant majority of new cars bought by private individuals are bought on finance, and have been for a long time. Look at all those new small German cars out there being driven by twenty somethings; how many of them have £30-£40k in the bank? But £300-£400 a month is much easier

30k could get you mid size car, even today. Why would someone accept less for more, other than clout (look at me, I'm green).

 

[trebor79]

We are on the verge of a huge model shift in urban areas.

In cities on street parking is very costly, off street parking is limited and very costly and there is a drive to remove cars from residential areas instead making them pedestrian / cycling only. Despite the gutter press hating low traffic areas, voters & residents love them.

The growing model is dedicated car club bays with an EV & a charger. That will remove 90% of the cars cluttering up the streets and provide not only a cheaper access to a car for the majority but a greater incentive to use e-bikes & public transport. You choose, pay train / bus fare or a car by the hour. I guess a smart card for all options will appear!

This model can work with an EV as they require minimal maintenance & free charging is included. Unplug in & charge period starts, plug in & it ends! ICEs cannot fit this model.

Indeed. In fact the first EV I drove was an i3 via Co-Wheels. Something daft like £38 per day, unlimited mileage. Didn't include free charging except for a specific network with very few chargers, but it was in Scotland anyway and there are free 50kW CPS chargers all over the place so that didn't matter!
Only issue with car clubs is that the interior tends to be stained, dirty etc rather than pristine like a hire car. That's not an issue for me, but would put many off I think.

 

[kevin_roche]

but it was in Scotland anyway and there are free 50kW CPS chargers all over the place

Most are no longer free as I discovered at the start of the month. Many are still pretty cheap though at 20p a unit.

 

[StKeverne1497]

The performance in summer is lower (typically 2.5:1) because almost all of it is heading domestic hot water, which uses a higher water temperature than domestic heating, which heat pumps are less efficient an. In winter, more lower-temperature water is used in the heating loop so the overall performance is around 4:1,

I'm going to have to do some more digging, because I read a fairly recent and apparently quite well-conducted report which didn't tally with that at all (for an air-to-water system). What you say doesn't seem to make any sense unless you don't use hot water in the winter, or, in the winter the efficiency for the heating part of the system is something like 6:1 or 7:1 and I haven't even seen manufacturer claims of that figure

In addition, if your cold mains is anything like ours it will be coming into the building at about 10C (possibly higher) in the summer and 5C in the winter which will also make a difference to the efficiency, so the 2.5:1 in the summer will be lower in the winter - more heat rise required from a colder outside temperature. I do understand that water used for heating is usually much lower temperature, though that can bring its own problems (in older houses) unless you can also make some big upgrades to insulation etc.

I think my main problem is that many news reports seem to see air source heat pumps as the holy grail of environmental upgrades, and ignore all the other things that go alongside them, and "4:1" doesn't seem to be an accurate across-the-year figure.

 

[MattA7]

Most are no longer free as I discovered at the start of the month. Many are still pretty cheap though at 20p a unit.

A lot of the ones near me are also “not in service” or “out of order” between there poor reliability and the fact a lot of them require membership with the provider is apparently a common reason a lot of EV owners end up going back to ICE cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of the ones near me are also “not in service” or “out of order” between there poor reliability and the fact a lot of them require membership with the provider is apparently a common reason a lot of EV owners end up going back to ICE cars.

Do you have evidence that "a lot of EV owners end up going back to ICE cars"?

It might be better putting that as "is apparently a common reason cited by people who owned EVs and decide to go back to ICE cars". I suspect that number is very small, though nonzero.

 

[reddragon]

Do you have evidence that "a lot of EV owners end up going back to ICE cars"?

It might be better putting that as "is apparently a common reason cited by people who owned EVs and decide to go back to ICE cars". I suspect that number is very small, though nonzero.

Apparently the top reason is an EV lease ending and disgruntled driver getting an ICE dumped on them! Second has been difficulties on accessing charging network when there no home charger in certain charging deserts due to house / job move.

EVs have a retention rate in the mid 90's percentages. Few ever go back, why would you!

 

[kevin_roche]

A lot of the ones near me are also “not in service” or “out of order” between there poor reliability and the fact a lot of them require membership with the provider is apparently a common reason a lot of EV owners end up going back to ICE cars.

I have way too many apps on my phone for different electricity suppliers. I had to get a new phone in February as it had run out of space for the upgrade of the existing apps let alone new ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have way too many apps on my phone for different electricity suppliers. I had to get a new phone in February as it had run out of space for the upgrade of the existing apps let alone new ones.

Don't skimp on your smartphone. You need a decent memory capacity to get the best out of one. I suspect some of the disquiet towards smartphones on here is because people are enduring cheap ones.

If you can afford a new EV at present, you can afford a recent iPhone or a premium Android device. This will change as they get cheaper, but so will the accessibility of charging.

 

[reddragon]

Don't skimp on your smartphone. You need a decent memory capacity to get the best out of one. I suspect some of the disquiet towards smartphones on here is because people are enduring cheap ones.

If you can afford a new EV at present, you can afford a recent iPhone or a premium Android device. This will change as they get cheaper, but so will the accessibility of charging.

All new rapids are by law now required to accept contactless

 

[jon0844]

We are on the verge of a huge model shift in urban areas.

In cities on street parking is very costly, off street parking is limited and very costly and there is a drive to remove cars from residential areas instead making them pedestrian / cycling only. Despite the gutter press hating low traffic areas, voters & residents love them.

The growing model is dedicated car club bays with an EV & a charger. That will remove 90% of the cars cluttering up the streets and provide not only a cheaper access to a car for the majority but a greater incentive to use e-bikes & public transport. You choose, pay train / bus fare or a car by the hour. I guess a smart card for all options will appear!

This model can work with an EV as they require minimal maintenance & free charging is included. Unplug in & charge period starts, plug in & it ends! ICEs cannot fit this model.

Not against much of that, but let's be realistic - it isn't likely to happen.

For one, here in Welwyn Hatfield they wanted to introduce a bike hire scheme and it failed miserably to get traction and never actually happened. Can it work outside of busy city centres? The idea of having cars easily and readily available for hiring by the hour is fanciful in all but high-density areas (where demand for a car is low anyway thanks to plentiful options, from walking, cycling to buses or even taxis).

Secondly, as more people get EVs and they get cheaper (to buy, run and maintain) you may even find more people get cars!

No way will we get rid of 90% of cars - but finding a way to get it down by 20-30% would make streets more free-flowing. Better use of the road space, including bays to allow delivery drivers to park (they're going to stop somewhere no matter what), permit schemes, more off-road parking and so on can help. Frankly, I'd consider converting some grass verges to off-road parking (using a porous surface) to make roads easier for cars and bikes alike (and then adopt measures to slow vehicles as appropriate).

E-Bikes can definitely encourage more people to cycle, but they're quite expensive too and likely enticing for thieves (and bike thefts are a big problem around here, if not everywhere) so it may take a while for them to take off mainstream - but looking at the number of people cycling during Covid or even this week during the strikes, I think we're already seeing more people taking to bikes even if only for commuting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2022 ==

If you can afford a new EV at present, you can afford a recent iPhone or a premium Android device. This will change as they get cheaper, but so will the accessibility of charging.

Xiaomi/Redmi or Realme will sell you a pretty decent mid (bordering on high) end phone with a fantastic HDR Full HD display, stereo sound, 4,500-5,000mAh battery, fast charging, 128GB or 256GB storage, and even 5G for £250 or maybe less.

 

[reddragon]

Not against much of that, but let's be realistic - it isn't likely to happen.

For one, here in Welwyn Hatfield they wanted to introduce a bike hire scheme and it failed miserably to get traction and never actually happened. Can it work outside of busy city centres? The idea of having cars easily and readily available for hiring by the hour is fanciful in all but high-density areas (where demand for a car is low anyway thanks to plentiful options, from walking, cycling to buses or even taxis).

Secondly, as more people get EVs and they get cheaper (to buy, run and maintain) you may even find more people get cars!

No way will we get rid of 90% of cars - but finding a way to get it down by 20-30% would make streets more free-flowing. Better use of the road space, including bays to allow delivery drivers to park (they're going to stop somewhere no matter what), permit schemes, more off-road parking and so on can help. Frankly, I'd consider converting some grass verges to off-road parking (using a porous surface) to make roads easier for cars and bikes alike (and then adopt measures to slow vehicles as appropriate).

E-Bikes can definitely encourage more people to cycle, but they're quite expensive too and likely enticing for thieves (and bike thefts are a big problem around here, if not everywhere) so it may take a while for them to take off mainstream - but looking at the number of people cycling during Covid or even this week during the strikes, I think we're already seeing more people taking to bikes even if only for commuting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2022 ==



Xiaomi/Redmi or Realme will sell you a pretty decent mid (bordering on high) end phone with a fantastic HDR Full HD display, stereo sound, 4,500-5,000mAh battery, fast charging, 128GB or 256GB storage, and even 5G for £250 or maybe less.

It'll remove 90% on inner city / town streets, less in small town suburbs where 20-30% seems reasonable but little impact in rural areas.

 

[jon0844]

I honestly think that with the benefits (for now) of running an EV, we'll see more people buying cars who had given up their ICE because of the cost.

Of course, I know the Government will seek to charge EV owners to make up for the loss in revenue as ICE cars go away - but in the short term, we may actually see things get worse congestion wise (albeit with less pollution!).

 

[trebor79]

A lot of the ones near me are also “not in service” or “out of order” between there poor reliability and the fact a lot of them require membership with the provider is apparently a common reason a lot of EV owners end up going back to ICE cars.

Total nonsense. I hired an electric car in Scotland for a few days, registered with Chargeplace Scotland, downloaded the app and err, that was it! I'm still registered with them so next time I go to Scotland I can use the app to start a charge session. It's not like you go "Oh, I haven't got the app for this network. Never mind I'll just get rid of this electric car and go back to ICE".

 

[david1212]

I honestly think that with the benefits (for now) of running an EV, we'll see more people buying cars who had given up their ICE because of the cost.

Of course, I know the Government will seek to charge EV owners to make up for the loss in revenue as ICE cars go away - but in the short term, we may actually see things get worse congestion wise (albeit with less pollution!).

I was talking to my neighbour. One of his colleagues has an leased electric MG but even with current fuel prices is considering handing it back and buying an older 'bangernomics' ICE car to save money. I didn't pry into mileage, where the car is charged etc.

Personally EV's have to become significantly cheaper and longer range plus the battery ' real world ' proved to have 70+% capacity at 10 years old / 100k miles to be a practical and same total cost alternative to my current ICE car bought at a year old and kept for 9 years.

 

[jon0844]

I actually want an EV with less range (50-100 miles) and at a much lower cost. I'm not too worried about battery longevity as evidence is already showing they perform way better than expected (and by that, I mean what the manufacturers are confident enough to keep covered under warranty).

Citroen has now given a price to the Ami (under £8k), which is perhaps a little too far in the other direction - but will be great for city centres (saw a few in Paris) with 20mph being the max speed limit in many cases.

Build a car with a sub-100 mile range and £15k or less, and the industry will have a huge chunk of people more open to getting an EV.

I am not into the risk of running an old banger that may prove cheap and cheerful, or may be a moneypit. I've had mixed experiences over the years, so now I put reliability above all else - and that's where an EV is likely going to just work day in, day out.

 

[trebor79]

I was talking to my neighbour. One of his colleagues has an leased electric MG but even with current fuel prices is considering handing it back and buying an older 'bangernomics' ICE car to save money. I didn't pry into mileage, where the car is charged etc.

Personally EV's have to become significantly cheaper and longer range plus the battery ' real world ' proved to have 70+% capacity at 10 years old / 100k miles to be a practical and same total cost alternative to my current ICE car bought at a year old and kept for 9 years.

The only way going back to ICE could possibly make sense is if it's a salary sacrifice car and he's.losing out on the mileage rate.
My wife *hates* spending money on cars but she's struggling to argue against replacing her 11 year old Renault with a new Niro EV. "But it's money every month for a long time". "Yes, but the maintenance is much cheaper and the fuel cost 95% lower, so actually we will save money, and have a nice car to drive instead of a knackered old heap". Silence. I think I nearly have her persuaded. Fingers crossed because it's already (hopefully) on a boat from Korea!
Replacing the banger with another banger would actually cost us more money than buying a brand new EV. I'll never buy ICE again was the primary car.

 

[MattRat]

I am not into the risk of running an old banger that may prove cheap and cheerful, or may be a moneypit. I've had mixed experiences over the years, so now I put reliability above all else - and that's where an EV is likely going to just work day in, day out.

I'm sure manufacturers will end up finding new and inventive ways for your car to break down, forcing you to get it repaired at their dealership. They've already mastered it for ICE cars.

In terms of old cars, it depends what you buy, and you really should do your research.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually want an EV with less range (50-100 miles) and at a much lower cost.

Used Nissan Leaf?

 

[cactustwirly]

We are on the verge of a huge model shift in urban areas.

In cities on street parking is very costly, off street parking is limited and very costly and there is a drive to remove cars from residential areas instead making them pedestrian / cycling only. Despite the gutter press hating low traffic areas, voters & residents love them.

The growing model is dedicated car club bays with an EV & a charger. That will remove 90% of the cars cluttering up the streets and provide not only a cheaper access to a car for the majority but a greater incentive to use e-bikes & public transport. You choose, pay train / bus fare or a car by the hour. I guess a smart card for all options will appear!

This model can work with an EV as they require minimal maintenance & free charging is included. Unplug in & charge period starts, plug in & it ends! ICEs cannot fit this model.

I completely disagree, I'm not paying over the odds to share another car that's completely unacceptable. My car is my car I want to do what I want with it. And I know where it's been!

I hope these so called car clubs have a choice of car, I refuse to drive long distances in something that's low spec and uncomfortable.

I live in an urban area, and that is a very long way away, EVs are about 0.1% of the cars I see. And public transport is useless for the majority of journeys.

 

[The Ham]

I actually want an EV with less range (50-100 miles) and at a much lower cost. I'm not too worried about battery longevity as evidence is already showing they perform way better than expected (and by that, I mean what the manufacturers are confident enough to keep covered under warranty).

Citroen has now given a price to the Ami (under £8k), which is perhaps a little too far in the other direction - but will be great for city centres (saw a few in Paris) with 20mph being the max speed limit in many cases.

Build a car with a sub-100 mile range and £15k or less, and the industry will have a huge chunk of people more open to getting an EV.

I am not into the risk of running an old banger that may prove cheap and cheerful, or may be a moneypit. I've had mixed experiences over the years, so now I put reliability above all else - and that's where an EV is likely going to just work day in, day out.i

Was talking with someone recently who currently is using an electric vehicle to get to work, it had a range of sub 100 miles and cost less than the previous (secondhand) car than they brought.

They were saying that it's great and they love it (at the time they were cleaning it).

Of course e-bikes are an acquired taste and many would question how useful they are. However whilst the weather isn't terrible and they can cycle the rural roads at a time when there's not too much traffic, they're happy to do so.

 

[cactustwirly]

I guess that because EVs are still expensive (or perceived to be, as people don't look at total cost of ownership taking into account servicing and maintaining a ICE vehicle, let alone the charging cost vs fuel) the car makers feel compelled to load a car with lots of features.

Technically, much of the tech is pretty common now and won't be that costly (and many systems are going to be off-the-shelf hardware - say a MediaTek or Qualcomm SoC - that is used over and over, with a few tweaks to the UI here and there) so it doesn't really cost that much to include, yet they charge a lot for it as people will think they're getting better value for money even if they don't need a lot of the bells and whistles.

It is disappointing if Ora is going to go down the premium route too, as I had high hopes they might be able to offer a great small car offering at a decent price that was £20k or less.

Clearly I spend over £10,000 on servicing my car...

I spend about £1200 a year on fuel so that's a lot of miles to make it worthwhile

 

[reddragon]

I actually want an EV with less range (50-100 miles) and at a much lower cost. I'm not too worried about battery longevity as evidence is already showing they perform way better than expected (and by that, I mean what the manufacturers are confident enough to keep covered under warranty).

Citroen has now given a price to the Ami (under £8k), which is perhaps a little too far in the other direction - but will be great for city centres (saw a few in Paris) with 20mph being the max speed limit in many cases.

Build a car with a sub-100 mile range and £15k or less, and the industry will have a huge chunk of people more open to getting an EV.

I am not into the risk of running an old banger that may prove cheap and cheerful, or may be a moneypit. I've had mixed experiences over the years, so now I put reliability above all else - and that's where an EV is likely going to just work day in, day out.

People with old EVs have found that they just still work day after day without any issues found on ICE bangers. Car goes, battery still gives x range.

Plenty of garages now able to do mods, classic conversions etc so keeping one going is viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2022 ==

The only way going back to ICE could possibly make sense is if it's a salary sacrifice car and he's.losing out on the mileage rate.
My wife *hates* spending money on cars but she's struggling to argue against replacing her 11 year old Renault with a new Niro EV. "But it's money every month for a long time". "Yes, but the maintenance is much cheaper and the fuel cost 95% lower, so actually we will save money, and have a nice car to drive instead of a knackered old heap". Silence. I think I nearly have her persuaded. Fingers crossed because it's already (hopefully) on a boat from Korea!
Replacing the banger with another banger would actually cost us more money than buying a brand new EV. I'll never buy ICE again was the primary car.

I switched from a very high mileage Vauxhall estate of >10 years and a new EV was cheaper to own. My current EV is the cheapest car I have owned as I got in new.

It does depend on you doing enough miles & having access to cheap charging though.

 

[johncrossley]

We already know trolleybuses have a very long life, so an EV is going to be little different as long as the battery continues to work sufficiently well.

 

[reddragon]

I'm sure manufacturers will end up finding new and inventive ways for your car to break down, forcing you to get it repaired at their dealership. They've already mastered it for ICE cars.

In terms of old cars, it depends what you buy, and you really should do your research.

The dealer model is dead under EVs. Tesla don't use it and even Ford expect their EVs ordered online.

YOu test drive at fullycharged live then order online, cut out the dealers exc collection and use specialist EV servicing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2022 ==

We already know trolleybuses have a very long life, so an EV is going to be little different as long as the battery continues to work sufficiently well.

Battery swaps & cell replacements are now common on older Nissan / Renault / Teslas