BBC reporting that Agency staff could cover strikes under law change

[Carlisle]

I have read, that the government is going to ban overtime, to the strikers, on following days of the strike, so they cant recoup lost wages.

How much concern will that actually be ?
Unless govt intends to change the law, RMT can pay the staff to take action as they did in the month long 2019 SWR guards strike

 

[choochoochoo]

They seem extremely relaxed about throwing passengers under the bus as well.

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The thing about the miners strike was that the government stockpiled coal beforehand, so the general public weren't affected by power cuts etc.

This won't be the case for a long drawn out rail strike.

And Coal was on its way out with gas/oil in the pipeline (almost literally)

No way there's an alternative the government can offer to the railway. Unless they empty the roads of private cars and lay on buses !!

 

[yorksrob]

And Coal was on its way out with gas/oil in the pipeline (almost literally)

No way there's an alternative the government can offer to the railway. Unless they empty the roads of private cars and lay on buses !!

Indeed. There's no way a long drawn out industrial dispute can do ahead without a lot of mud sticking to the government.

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It's not about the Treasury. It's about turning the screw on those on strike so they get hit in the pocket. Rest day working and overtime agreements can be terminated by either side: it's a tactic the unions are happy to play, so it's fair game for the Government, too.

There's an African saying that "when elephants fight, it's the grass that gets trampled".

In this case the passengers are the grass.

 

[nedchester]

They seem extremely relaxed about throwing passengers under the bus as well.

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The thing about the miners strike was that the government stockpiled coal beforehand, so the general public weren't affected by power cuts etc.

This won't be the case for a long drawn out rail strike.

On the latest announcement re agency workers it's obvious they haven't thought this through.

However, I do think the Government are looking to break the unions miners style. How many workers are willing to go on an all out (or multiple days) strike these days when inflation is high and mortgages need paying. That will be the Government thinking........

 

[yorksrob]

On the latest announcement re agency workers it's obvious they haven't thought this through.

However, I do think the Government are looking to break the unions miners style. How many workers are willing to go on an all out (or multiple days) strike these days when inflation is high and mortgages need paying. That will be the Government thinking........

Perhaps they are. However they need to realise that they won't come out of it smelling of roses.

 

[Carlisle]

And Coal was on its way out with gas/oil in the pipeline (almost literally)

Are you sure? Wasn’t around 80% of power generated by coal in the early 1980s.
The dash for gas only gained serious momentum later on when the industry was privatised

 

[choochoochoo]

Are you sure? Wasn’t around 80% of power generated by coal in the early 1980s

I’m sure the government knew North Sea oil and gas would soon be available.

They knew the long term dependence on coal was over.

And they had the option to cheaply import coal too. Can’t really import the railway.

 

[TheEdge]

I've come to the conclusion that a depressingly large amount of people won't be happy until we all have American style employment rights.

For some reason people seem to think they are good rather than a dystopian hellscape.

 

[6Gman]

I'd bring in the Armed Forces just like during Fire Brigade strikes

To do what exactly?

 

[choochoochoo]

I've come to the conclusion that a depressingly large amount of people won't be happy until we all have American style employment rights.

For some reason people seem to think they are good rather than a dystopian hellscape.

Yep. And then they’ll moan when they only have 5 days annual leave a year !!

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To do what exactly?

Enforce the queues at the bus stops and taxi ranks of course !!

 

[stuu]

They seem extremely relaxed about throwing passengers under the bus as well.

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The thing about the miners strike was that the government stockpiled coal beforehand, so the general public weren't affected by power cuts etc.

This won't be the case for a long drawn out rail strike.

But as has been stated in so many other threads, it is leisure customers filling trains, not commuters. Leisure passengers by definition have a choice of when or what mode of travel they use.

What proportion of daily commuters are white collar workers who can work from home? 75%? Higher?

This strike plays right into the government's hands and changes the agenda away from their appalling record and incompetence and all their other failings.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's an African saying that "when elephants fight, it's the grass that gets trampled".

In this case the passengers are the grass.

Or "Collateral Damage" as they were once described in a strike dispute in recent years.

 

[TheEdge]

Yep. And then they’ll moan when they only have 5 days annual leave a year !!

Imagine having as many as 5 a year!

 

[choochoochoo]

But as has been stated in so many other threads, it is leisure customers filling trains, not commuters. Leisure passengers by definition have a choice of when or what mode of travel they use.

What proportion of daily commuters are white collar workers who can work from home? 75%? Higher?

This strike plays right into the government's hands and changes the agenda away from their appalling record and incompetence and all their other failings.

With lots of other industries looming on industrial action I think this will firmly stick on them.

 

[cambsy]

I think the government, will be up for this fight with RMT, and will dig in and win, like the miners strike. I cant see the RMT winning this battle, and their members coming out of it, not doing themselves and the railways a lot of damage, I get they haven’t had a parries for years etc, but when times are tough, and money short, is not the time to aggravate the government.

 

[387star]

Strange as most RMT members....don't actually drive trains...but why let facts get in the way of a good rant eh?

Are most underground drivers RMT rather than ASLEF? Is that where the confusion lies?

 

[6Gman]

Sure, it's a cut in living standards. But there's a good reason that: Thanks to various things (including, most obviously, Ukraine and Covid), we cannot currently as a country maintain the same living standards that we had a few years ago: We are almost all suffering from that. Nationally, the 'pie' that we all share is a bit smaller than before.

By demanding a pay rise - even one that's less than inflation - the Unions are, in effect, demanding that their workers, uniquely, should be partially protected from that shrinking pie - which obviously means that they are, for practical purposes, demanding that everyone else takes an even bigger hit. (Which will manifest itself in any rail pay increase feeding through to either higher inflation or higher taxes or higher Government borrowing (which itself will lead to higher inflation or higher taxes in the future).

Your use of the word "uniquely" suggests that nobody else is receiving a pay rise.

Which is simply untrue.

(I note that MPs have had a 2.7% increase this year and since 2013 have had an increase every year bar one. Just saying.)

 

[High Dyke]

So what happens to the person concerned? I assume if a real guard made a mistake, it would be treated seriously and at worse could be career ending. In fact at worse it could lead to prosecution.

Do the "contingency conductors" face consequences?

Yes, they get put back in their desk job. There were also a number of 'operational incidents' with 'contingency guards' during the last East Midlands Railway dispute.

Me personally, I blame Unions and rail staff. By all means it is important to have all good round conditions but they are paid more than enough and have good conditions. It is just sheer greed all this. They are driving trains… they aren’t brain surgeons, air traffic controllers or fighter pilots. They need to get a grip. If they aren’t happy in their job then get another, don’t affect the livelihood and social life of many thousands who rely on the service.

Out of interest, do you know what the lowest paid rail worker earns?

For many Network Rail staff this is about long-term job security, a better work/life balance (not working so many night shifts).

 

[jayah]

The BBC, is reporting, that the government, is looking at repealing, a legal ban, so they can bring in legislation, to allow, the TOC’s etc, to bring in agency workers and temporary staff, in future strikes, beyond the June ones, so as to avoid disruption, as words seem to be escalating between the government and RMT,(im not good at links)its been reported on BBC news page. I think this good move, and that the government shouldn’t and wont give into the RMT demands. Im against the strikes on principle etc, as it will be very damaging for the railways, and they will shoot themselves in the foot.

Ironically the change will have far more impact in other strikes than this one - nobody is going to have G4S driving trains. It isn't all that common for more highly skilled and well paid people to go on strike over pay.

The Conservative Party actually promised to require a minimum service level to operate during strikes and that would have far more impact here.

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For many Network Rail staff this is about long-term job security, a better work/life balance (not working so many night shifts).

A lot of this doesn't make sense. The absolute worst thing to do for your own job security is go on strike, as the miners discovered in the 1980s.

As for work / life balance, the railway is 24/7. They already have a fairly universal 35hr contracted week. It is obvious the TOC contracts have not enough weekend working as a requirement.

In Network Rail there is less and less red zone working meaning more and more overnight and weekend blocks.

They need to get real.

 

[choochoochoo]

I think the government, will be up for this fight with RMT, and will dig in and win, like the miners strike. I cant see the RMT winning this battle, and their members coming out of it, not doing themselves and the railways a lot of damage, I get they haven’t had a parries for years etc, but when times are tough, and money short, is not the time to aggravate the government.

With the incompetence in the current cabinet and their leader I’m not so sure.

 

[yorksrob]

But as has been stated in so many other threads, it is leisure customers filling trains, not commuters. Leisure passengers by definition have a choice of when or what mode of travel they use.

What proportion of daily commuters are white collar workers who can work from home? 75%? Higher?

This strike plays right into the government's hands and changes the agenda away from their appalling record and incompetence and all their other failings.

Just because leisure passengers "have a choice" of whether to go somewhere, doesn't mean that they will be happy or relaxed about that choice being denied to them. The government are delusional if they think they won't attract some of the blame.

 

[jayah]

For many Network Rail staff this is about long-term job security, a better work/life balance (not working so many night shifts).

A lot of this doesn't make sense. The absolute worst thing to do for your own job security is go on strike, as the miners discovered in the 1980s.

As for work / life balance, the railway is 24/7. They already have a fairly universal 35hr contracted week. It is obvious the TOC contracts have too not enough weekend working as a requirement.

In Network Rail there is less and less red zone working meaning more and more overnight and weekend blocks.

They need to get real.

Not once have the RMT sat with their members and fully explained to them what the government running the railways would mean. It was all a political crusade. Well now we know what it means. So no, I am no RMT fan. But I'm damned if I will be brow beaten by a government led by a pathological liar.

It's not about the members it is about power. The RMT and ASLEF know what a cash cow privatisation was.

Now, like the nurses, there is a monopoly buyer of labour in the main and stiff competition for deserving sectors of the public payroll.

In the 1980s the miners were led off a cliff to try and collapse the government.

The RMT always yearned for the ability to call national strikes and that is far more important to them than the fact nationalisation will undoubtedly make their members poorer.

 

[yorksrob]

Or "Collateral Damage" as they were once described in a strike dispute in recent years.

Indeed.

 

[jayah]

Yep. And then they’ll moan when they only have 5 days annual leave a year !!

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Enforce the queues at the bus stops and taxi ranks of course !!

In reality employment conditions, leave and other entitlements like flexible working, NMW and parental leave have all increased substantially under 12 years of Conservative government.

 

[Gems]

Why is it worrying the government trying to prevent rest day working? Your lucky if there is more than a few uncovered shifts a week never mind a day. It really is urinating into the wind. I'm sure whoever thought it up though thinks it's a great idea. But I'll bear it in mind when I am asked if I would do the extra hour to finish a job.
The thing is this. Once again Shapps has no idea how the railway works. If you want to ban overtime go right ahead, but the railway runs on overtime. This will backfire on the government because the RMT can adopt tactics to compensate. But it also allows someone like me who won't be striking to play a bigger role by not covering overtime either. Well done Mr Shapps, next time you come up with a great idea try and write it down somewhere better than the back of a fag packet.

 

[43096]

I’m sure the government knew North Sea oil and gas would soon be available.

They knew the long term dependence on coal was over.

And they had the option to cheaply import coal too. Can’t really import the railway.

On that last point, you obviously missed the large numbers of people who worked from home for much of the last two years. I'm sure they can do the same whilst the railway is on strike. Despite what the staff might think, the ability to bring the country to a halt is just not there.

 

[trebor79]

(Assuming you're referring to drivers as that's what the post you quoted mentioned)

Firstly - drivers are not currently involved in this dispute.

Secondly - for obvious reasons, only people who currently have driver competence can drive trains. People who used to have driver competence are no use, they would essentially need full training to bring them back up to standard. So effectively that means the only people who could replace drivers are driver managers and some standards managers. They only retain driver competence because they need it - so backfilling the role with agency staff who don't have it is pointless.

I thought some other managers at certain TOCs are qualified and do the odd turn to remain competent?
Perhaps I'm mistaken about that.

But the point in general stands. At the moment, it's not legal to use temps to cover for striking staff. It is legal to use other staff to cover for the strikers, but it also isn't legal to use temps to in turn cover the roles those people normally do.
I believe the intent is to make it legal, not with the expectation that temps will cover the strikers directly, but will allow a cascade of other staff.

 

[brad465]

Sure, it's a cut in living standards. But there's a good reason that: Thanks to various things (including, most obviously, Ukraine and Covid), we cannot currently as a country maintain the same living standards that we had a few years ago: We are almost all suffering from that. Nationally, the 'pie' that we all share is a bit smaller than before.

I'd add the Bank of England and their western equivalents thinking printing money like there's no tomorrow would solve all their problems to the causes of inflation. Perhaps if they did their job properly and got rid of all the QE, and actually put rates up to rates that might actually bring inflation down, then maybe there would be no need to strike in demand of large pay increases just to keep up with inflation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So wait, the RMT haven't yet got to the point of an offer but have balloted members on industrial action? As a long standing union member, and having spent many years as a rep I would be seriously uncomfortable asking fee paying members to lose wages without at least a clear ask or on an actual offer.

Not only that, the action is about job security for which no proposals have been made, and safety concerns about potential reduction of maintenance jobs.
Shapps has said today "there is no pay freeze", so one should be negotiable.
The other more strategic issues won't be soluble round a negotiating table, possibly until GBR and its "single guiding mind" is up and running.
The RMT has done very well in recent years by demanding guarantees on job security and Ts&Cs at every franchise change, and most TOCS have conceded them.
With the DfT in the driving seat, and cost reduction essential, that period is over.

Some comment about the current union-DfT spat from the Guardian:

Grant Shapps says law change could allow agency workers to break strikes

Transport secretary also says workers could be banned from overtime, as rail industrial action looms

www.theguardian.com

“The union barons have essentially told their members: you haven’t had a rise for two years, this strike is about pay.
What they haven’t told their members is ... the pay freeze has ended. So they’ve been invited to strike under false pretences.”

 

[mandub]

FFS.
THIS IS NOT LIKE THE MINERS STRIKE