Validity of 'London Thameslink' tickets

[gabrielhj07]

Hi all,

Recently, I was travelling from Bedford to London on a ticket marked 'London Thameslink', route 'Any Permitted'.

Seeing as I wished to travel to Blackfriars, this presented no difficulty, however I was wondering if:

1. Such a ticket is valid only through the Thameslink Core, ie would it be possible to use it at the upper level (MML) platforms at St Pancras, given that Thameslink trains sometimes terminate there.
2. By extension, this ticket might be valid on EMR services, since the barriers would not know on which train you had travelled.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Watershed]

Hi all,

Recently, I was travelling from Bedford to London on a ticket marked 'London Thameslink', route 'Any Permitted'.

Seeing as I wished to travel to Blackfriars, this was presented no difficulty, however I was wondering if:

1. Such a ticket is valid only through the Thameslink Core, ie would it be possible to use it at the upper level (MML) platforms at St Pancras, given that Thameslink trains sometimes terminate there.
2. By extension, this ticket might be valid on EMR services, since the barriers would not know on which train you had travelled.

Thanks in advance.

Yes, London Thameslink is merely 'shorthand' for a group of stations made up of London St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle. Similarly to how London Terminals refers to a group of about 15 stations, not all of which are strictly speaking termini.

There is no distinction between the high and low level platforms at St Pancras and, being an Any Permitted ticket, it's valid on all operators on all permitted routes - so use on the EMR Connect service is absolutely fine.

Incidentally this ticket is also valid into Euston via the Bedford-Bletchley or St Albans Abbey branches.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Can i clarify? Is a Bedford -London TERMINALS ticket valid to Euston, but London THAMESLINK isn't valid to Euston?
Many thanks

 

[Alex365Dash]

Can i clarify? Is a Bedford -London TERMINALS ticket valid to Euston, but London THAMESLINK isn't valid to Euston?
Many thanks

Both Bedford to London Terminals or London Thameslink is valid to London Euston.

 

[Watershed]

Can i clarify? Is a Bedford -London TERMINALS ticket valid to Euston, but London THAMESLINK isn't valid to Euston?
Many thanks

There aren't any single/return tickets from Bedford to London Terminals, only season tickets. Singles/returns are issued to London Thameslink. Both are valid into Euston.

 

[Spamcan81]

Travelled to London last week on a London Terminals ticket to Blackfriars. Went to start my journey home from Farringdon only to discover my ticket wasn’t valid from there yet was valid from the stations immediately before and after. Walked back to City Thameslink and caught my train from there and of course passed through Farringdon a couple of minutes later. Seems an odd restriction to me.

 

[Watershed]

Travelled to London last week on a London Terminals ticket to Blackfriars. Went to start my journey home from Farringdon only to discover my ticket wasn’t valid from there yet was valid from the stations immediately before and after. Walked back to City Thameslink and caught my train from there and of course passed through Farringdon a couple of minutes later. Seems an odd restriction to me.

If you had a London Terminals ticket it isn't valid at Farringdon, regardless of whether you're travelling to/from the north or south. Only a London Thameslink ticket, a ticket specifically issued to Farringdon (or another Core station the 'right' side of Farringdon), or a cross-London ticket would be valid there.

So what you say doesn't quite make sense - either your ticket was wrongly rejected at Farringdon or you didn't have a valid ticket to travel through the Core.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If you had a London Terminals ticket it isn't valid at Farringdon, regardless of whether you're travelling to/from the north or south. Only a London Thameslink ticket, or a ticket specifically issued to Farringdon etc. would be valid there.

So what you say doesn't quite make sense - either your ticket was wrongly rejected at Farringdon or you didn't have a valid ticket to travel through the Core.

I strongly suspect it was the latter - it's just that the gates at City Thameslink accepted the ticket because they are not that clever.

(I imagine the ticket was London Terminals to somewhere north of London, e.g. Bedfordshire.)

 

[gabrielhj07]

Yes, neither Farringdon nor City Thameslink are part of the 'London Terminals' group, whereas Blackfriars is.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Yes, neither Farringdon nor City Thameslink are part of the 'London Terminals' group, whereas Blackfriars is.

That's incorrect - City Thameslink is part of the 'London Terminals' group for journeys from/to the south.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Yes, neither Farringdon nor City Thameslink are part of the 'London Terminals' group, whereas Blackfriars is.

City Thameslink is actually part of the London Terminals group and tickets to London Terminals from the south are valid up to and including City Thameslink.

London Terminals tickets from the north are not valid to Farringdon, City Thameslink or south thereof as they require passing Farringdon, which is not part of the London Terminals fare group.

 

[Mikw]

City Thameslink is actually part of the London Terminals group and tickets to London Terminals from the south are valid up to and including City Thameslink.

London Terminals tickets from the north are not valid to Farringdon, City Thameslink or south thereof as they require passing Farringdon, which is not part of the London Terminals fare group.

It's nuts really. How is City Thameslink a "terminal" and Farringdon isn't?

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's nuts really. How is City Thameslink a "terminal" and Farringdon isn't?

As City Thameslink is functionally a replacement of the old Holborn Viaduct station for journeys from/to the south.

 

[Watershed]

It's nuts really. How is City Thameslink a "terminal" and Farringdon isn't?

It's completely arbitrary really, but City Thameslink replaced Holborn Viaduct, which was the terminus for Southern Region services. So I suppose it 'inherited' London Terminal status.

The bigger question should be why Farringdon wasn't made a London Terminal. Particularly considering that up until 2009, Thameslink services to Moorgate (a London Terminal) called at Farringdon.

Of course there will be the usual argument about revenue concerns but in reality, it's plain nonsensical and doesn't really stand up to any level of scrutiny.

 

[gabrielhj07]

That's incorrect - City Thameslink is part of the 'London Terminals' group for journeys from/to the south.

My mistake, I was looking at this map: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/OfficialNationalRailmaplarge.pdf

 

[Alex365Dash]

My mistake, I was looking at this map: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/OfficialNationalRailmaplarge.pdf

The map’s somewhat interesting - City Thameslink appears shown as a London Terminal on the map as CT but isn’t in the list of London Terminal stations to the side!

 

[alistairlees]

My mistake, I was looking at this map: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/OfficialNationalRailmaplarge.pdf

The map has many inconsistencies with what are London terminals (in ticketing terms) today:
- Kensington Olympia is not a London terminal
- city Thameslink is actually on the map, but not in the key
- Old Street, Moorgate and Vauxhall are missing

 

[swt_passenger]

The map has many inconsistencies with what are London terminals (in ticketing terms) today:
- Kensington Olympia is not a London terminal
- city Thameslink is actually on the map, but not in the key
- Old Street, Moorgate and Vauxhall are missing

I don’t think it’s accessible via the NRES maps page, is it on a hidden or out of date part of their website?

Potentially wrong when drawn if the 2015 date at the bottom of the page is correct?

 

[alistairlees]

I don’t think it’s accessible via the NRES maps page, is it on a hidden or out of date part of their website?

I don’t know it wasn’t me who linked to it

 

[swt_passenger]

My mistake, I was looking at this map: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/OfficialNationalRailmaplarge.pdf

How did you get to that map please; I don’t think it’s accessible from their usual website. Seems to be from 2015.

 

[gabrielhj07]

How did you get to that map please; I don’t think it’s accessible from their usual website. Seems to be from 2015.

To be honest, I just searched for ‘London Terminals Group’

 

[maniacmartin]

Farringdon is the centre of a lot of confusing ticketting anomolies. The way I remember the rule is that once you arrive at a station in your destination station group, you can proceed to other stations only if they in the same group. The same applies in reverse if the group is your origin.

This rules out travelling via Farringdon on a London Terminals ticket, except if your ticket is routed PLUS HIGH SPEED where an exception was made when HS1 opened, allowing travel via Farringdon to some (but not all!) London Terminals beyond.

 

[Alex365Dash]

This rules out travelling via Farringdon on a London Terminals ticket, except if your ticket is routed PLUS HIGH SPEED where an exception was made when HS1 opened, allowing travel via Farringdon to some (but not all!) London Terminals beyond.

More specifically, the positive easement numbered 700847 lists the terminals you can travel to as the following:

Tickets to London Terminals priced on routes (00131) PLUS HS1 and (00324) Plus HS1 NOT UND(erground) on HS1 services to London are valid via London St Pancras International and Farringdon by National Rail services to City Thameslink, London Bridge, London Blackfriars, London Cannon Street, London Waterloo East and London Charing Cross. This fare route easement applies in both directions.

Interestingly, the National Rail page you've linked also notes that you can use such a ticket on Thameslink services between St Pancras and Elephant & Castle (as well as London Bridge), which both isn't a London Terminal and also isn't in the easement!

Which leads me to raise two questions: is a (say) Stratford International to London Terminals Anytime Day Single routed PLUS HIGH SPEED valid to:
1. Elephant & Castle, not a London Terminal? I can't see how it would be, but the National Rail page says it does.
2. Vauxhall, which is a London Terminal that can be accessed from London Bridge without leaving the London Terminals fare group via Waterloo East and Waterloo?

 

[717001]

National Rail Enquiries provide the diagrams about a third of the way down this page, as guidance for Thameslink passengers travelling from north / south: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx

 

[Haywain]

As I recall, there was a time when you had to have a ticket to Zone U1 to be able to travel to (/from) Farringdon (and, at that time, Barbican and Moorgate) on Thameslink services.

 

[swt_passenger]

As I recall, there was a time when you had to have a ticket to Zone U1 to be able to travel to (/from) Farringdon (and, at that time, Barbican and Moorgate) on Thameslink services.

Before the branch to Moorgate was severed the situation was as shown in NFM 99, the last paper fares manual, Farringdon was part of London Thameslink, Barbican and Moorgate were not. The text implies point to point fares were available.

 

[Surreytraveller]

As I recall, there was a time when you had to have a ticket to Zone U1 to be able to travel to (/from) Farringdon (and, at that time, Barbican and Moorgate) on Thameslink services.

It was the same for the Waterloo & City under British Rail. But even in those days there were tickets from the south issued to 'Farringdon rte Not Und' for the same price as London Terminals. I think the same for Kings Cross Thameslink

 

[David Goddard]

Sounds like its time for another review of these various "London" fares, particularly with the arrival of the Elizabeth Line, to simplify for all and remove the anomolies like Farringdon being invalid.
Something like "London NR" valid to any NR station in the central area, using Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line as distributors. Clearly not much use for those arriving into Victoria, Marylebone or Euston but where you can be on a through train to, or can change to, the routes above, then it could have legs. The U1 fares would remain for transfers by LU.
May be a small impact on revenue but it if makes things better to understand and so makes train travel more attractive then it cant be a bad thing.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Sounds like its time for another review of these various "London" fares, particularly with the arrival of the Elizabeth Line, to simplify for all and remove the anomolies like Farringdon being invalid.
Something like "London NR" valid to any NR station in the central area, using Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line as distributors. Clearly not much use for those arriving into Victoria, Marylebone or Euston but where you can be on a through train to, or can change to, the routes above, then it could have legs. The U1 fares would remain for transfers by LU.
May be a small impact on revenue but it if makes things better to understand and so makes train travel more attractive then it cant be a bad thing.

You say Euston, but Euston is within spitting distance of St Pancras International for changing onto Thameslink.
I think the Elizabeth Line going via Farringdon could make the rule 'London Terminals tickets not valid to or via Farringdon' simples.
Only coming from the west, Paddington would have to be the cut-off.
But is there not a Reading to Farringdon not Underground fare coming from the west?

 

[alistairlees]

Sounds like its time for another review of these various "London" fares, particularly with the arrival of the Elizabeth Line, to simplify for all and remove the anomolies like Farringdon being invalid.
Something like "London NR" valid to any NR station in the central area, using Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line as distributors. Clearly not much use for those arriving into Victoria, Marylebone or Euston but where you can be on a through train to, or can change to, the routes above, then it could have legs. The U1 fares would remain for transfers by LU.
May be a small impact on revenue but it if makes things better to understand and so makes train travel more attractive then it cant be a bad thing.

Is the correct answer, and surely achievable in the situation that we are in, where both TOCs and TfL are more or less under direct DfT control (financially, at least).