When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

[AlterEgo]

We can’t let things like facts get in the way of the Tabloid glee at screaming about U-Turns. It’s almost like they want us to be ruled by pig headed opinionated oafs

Quite! A U-turn can be fine, as long as it is executed for the correct reasons.

 

[Falcon1200]

No, firstly because accepting the result (in the sense of not complaining about it) is betraying your principles, and secondly (just like the Brexit referendum, as it happens) because the actual result is more nuanced than that.

Accepting the result of a vote which you lost is an absolutely fundamental principle of democracy, although not always observed, as some politicians on both sides of the Atlantic have demonstrated.

 

[Busaholic]

One for you @Busaholic

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/1533920156728139782

Greg Hands could at least get his facts right. The 211 would be unaffected and the 148 extended in its scope! (The tiny piece of route between Shepherds Bush Green and White City Shopping Centre would be withdrawn though.)

 

[DarloRich]

Why was Johnson sniffing so much in his interview yesterday? Guess it was bad hayfever or a summer cold

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why was Johnson sniffing so much in his interview yesterday? Guess it was bad hayfever or a summer cold

COVID?

 

[nlogax]

Why was Johnson sniffing so much in his interview yesterday? Guess it was bad hayfever or a summer cold

He seemed quite bouncy. I guess those hayfever drugs were pretty good.

 

[nw1]

Accepting the result of a vote which you lost is an absolutely fundamental principle of democracy, although not always observed, as some politicians on both sides of the Atlantic have demonstrated.

But I am not talking about suggesting that the anti-Johnson Tories attempt some kind of Trump-style violent coup. I am talking about them having the right to continue to complain about Johnson and try to remove him by other means, rather than servile acceptance of him.

And I believe that having the right to complain about a government or leader you don't like, and finding (peaceful and legal) ways to attempt to change things - whether that be vocal and public complaints, or protest, is an even more fundamental principle of democracy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However, a complete failure to deal with (especially illegal) immigration and law and order are obvious weak points.

I do wonder how Sir Keir Starmer if in the position of Prime Minister would have handled the matter of illegal immigration mentioned above, especially with regards to the criminal gangs who profit from the suffering of the said immigrants.

I was discussing the matter this morning with a neighbour with still a weird sense of humour at the age of 83 and his response was......
"I do wonder if Corbyn was in charge, his plan would be to nationalise the people smuggling gangs and to ensure that the RMT union (M in that stands for maritime) would ensure that they abided by the decision by setting up picket lines all across the French beaches and did not allow cross-channel immigrant craft to travel on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays".

 

[Bayum]

Why was Johnson sniffing so much in his interview yesterday? Guess it was bad hayfever or a summer cold

I posted last night. Reckon the oaf had spent the two hours bricking it knowing that for once he can’t bulldoze his way through something.

 

[Yew]

I do wonder how Sir Keir Starmer if in the position of Prime Minister would have handled the matter of illegal immigration mentioned above, especially with regards to the criminal gangs who profit from the suffering of the said immigrants.

Wasn't the Conservative party considering pushing them back into the sea?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wasn't the Conservative party considering pushing them back into the sea?

No, I think it was to push them over to Ruanda.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2022 ==

I posted last night. Reckon the oaf had spent the two hours bricking it knowing that for once he can’t bulldoze his way through something.

You learn something new every day on this website as I was unaware that the said personage not only had bricklaying skills, but also the ability to drive a bulldozer.

 

[Gloster]

You learn something new every day on this website as I was unaware that the said personage not only had bricklaying skills, but also the ability to drive a bulldozer.

Didn’t he drive a JCB through a wall of polystyrene (or similar) blocks during the election campaign?

 

[takno]

Didn’t he drive a JCB through a wall of polystyrene (or similar) blocks during the election campaign?

Wasn't it a wall of police cadets?

 

[Bayum]

You learn something new every day on this website as I was unaware that the said personage not only had bricklaying skills, but also the ability to drive a bulldozer.

How else is he going to build all these ‘new’ hospitals?

 

[Gloster]

Found it on youtube: a wall of lightweight blocks with Gridlock painted on it, then Johnson crashes through at the wheel of a Union Flag liveried JCB (I think it was at their factory) with Get Brexit Done on a board in the bucket. (Sorry, I can’t do a link: I googled Boris Johnson JCB wall . Beware: Johnson’s grin is sickening.)

 

[brad465]

I do wonder how Sir Keir Starmer if in the position of Prime Minister would have handled the matter of illegal immigration mentioned above, especially with regards to the criminal gangs who profit from the suffering of the said immigrants.

I was discussing the matter this morning with a neighbour with still a weird sense of humour at the age of 83 and his response was......
"I do wonder if Corbyn was in charge, his plan would be to nationalise the people smuggling gangs and to ensure that the RMT union (M in that stands for maritime) would ensure that they abided by the decision by setting up picket lines all across the French beaches and did not allow cross-channel immigrant craft to travel on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays".

First of all, how many are illegal immigrants, and how many are asylum seekers, which are different groups entirely? What we have to remember is if they're embarking on a dangerous journey like that across the channel and putting their lives into the hands of these gangs, things must be very bad in their homeland for them to consider such a crossing a risk worth taking (one's home country being ravaged by war would fit this).

The solution long term to the whole issue of channel crossings is to stop screwing over the Middle East and other parts of the world to the point that many feel the need to leave them in the way they have. It's easy to put the blame on them and on the gangs exploiting them, but until we actually ask ourselves why they're making the journeys, we cannot find appropriate solutions, something that no party leader/prominent politician seems to be proposing, whether Starmer, Johnson, Patel, etc. If we don't tackle the root causes of such migration, they will just keep coming, something many of them would rather not do, but probably feel they have no choice.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

First of all, how many are illegal immigrants, and how many are asylum seekers, which are different groups entirely? What we have to remember is if they're embarking on a dangerous journey like that across the channel and putting their lives into the hands of these gangs, things must be very bad in their homeland for them to consider such a crossing a risk worth taking (one's home country being ravaged by war would fit this).

These people are in the country of France, a country that had aims of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity in its revolution at the end of the 18th century. Do these now no longer apply? Do I understand your view that having reached France, asylum seekers are not safe there?

 

[dosxuk]

Accepting the result of a vote which you lost is an absolutely fundamental principle of democracy, although not always observed, as some politicians on both sides of the Atlantic have demonstrated.

Accepting a result as a fair and accurate result has nothing to do agreeing with that result. It's just as fundamental a principle that people can disagree with the chosen option, and even to continue to campaign for another opportunity to put that to a vote.

It is perfectly democratic to say "we lost, but I still believe it's the wrong thing to do", as opposed to "we didn't lose, it was a fixed election, and no I don't have any evidence" which definitely isn't.

While I'm sure some people strongly believe that a 48:52 result is a clear mandate and should never be revisited, it's also arguable that many of those people took advantage of their democratic right to complain about a previous decision and force a vote on the matter.

 

[Cowley]

Let’s try (I feel like we might have said this before actually) to try and keep the Conservative stuff in this thread and the Labour stuff in this thread please!

There’s definitely enough to discuss at the moment without dragging different parties (political ones) into it…

 

[fgwrich]

He seemed quite bouncy. I guess those hayfever drugs were pretty good.

Well, he did seem quite keen that we should "draw lines" under the whole thing, perhaps that that one come from Gove?

Speaking matters related to, I wonder how Sir Lindsay Hoyle's planned investigation and crackdown on Class A and Class B drugs found in and across the houses of Parliament is going?

(Eg. https://news.sky.com/story/commons-...ug-abuse-in-the-houses-of-parliament-12487771 )

 

[The Ham]

Or they were wiser than her and were keeping their heads down until it was clear which way the wind was blowing.

I may be old-fashioned (now, saying that is a sign of getting old), but my feeling is that an MP’s loyalty should be to his or her constituents and the country, or even to the party who they think will serve those best, but not to one individual. I suspect that there will be rolling in the aisles after that statement.

I suspect that there's going to be a fair few MP's asked during hustings about which way they voted, if they are whatever they say may lose them votes. Even saying nothing or saying it's a secret vote could end up being worse then saying what they did.

These people are in the country of France, a country that had aims of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity in its revolution at the end of the 18th century. Do these now no longer apply? Do I understand your view that having reached France, asylum seekers are not safe there?

Other than entering the UK illegally there's limited ways to claim asylum. Even the most legal requires you to come in on a visa and then effectively rip it up by claiming asylum.

 

[GusB]

Agreed. To my mind, Douglas Ross's position has been perfectly consistent.

Indeed. Consistent with the mindset of a Tory MP that, upon hedging his bets, has decided that backing Big Dog isn't such a good idea after all.

But of course he's a Tory MP, and it seems that in the minds of some people that's sufficient justification to gratuitously look for the worst possible interpretation of everything he does - even if what he's doing is perfectly reasonable and consistent

He's a muppet (also my MP). He's a Tory. I'll look for the worst in anyone who flip-flops between pretending to support the party leadership and pretending to support their constituents. MPs are suppose to look after interests of all their constituents once elected, and oor Dougie can't work out whether he's more inclined to support those in Moray who voted for him, those in the Highland electoral region who voted for him, or if he prefers being a pretender to the First Minister position.

 

[najaB]

These people are in the country of France, a country that had aims of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity in its revolution at the end of the 18th century. Do these now no longer apply? Do I understand your view that having reached France, asylum seekers are not safe there?

There is no obligation for someone to claim asylum in the first 'safe' country that they pass through. If, for example, someone has family in the UK then it is right and proper for them to make their asylum claim to the UK. Which is a hell of a lot easier to do if they're already here.

 

[Ediswan]

These people are in the country of France, a country that had aims of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity in its revolution at the end of the 18th century. Do these now no longer apply? Do I understand your view that having reached France, asylum seekers are not safe there?

My grasp of French is modest, but I was able to read 'Arabs go home' in the local graffiti.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we stick to the topic of this thread please which is When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson.

thanks

 

[Shrop]

We now have an answer, namely 6th June 2022, when 148 of Johnson's own MPs voted that they have no confidence in him.
Perhaps there is some validity in now asking the question "When will the Johnson and his ever decreasing band of sycophants recognise that their behaviour is seriously damaging the Tory Party?"

 

[Peterthegreat]

We now have an answer, namely 6th June 2022, when 148 of Johnson's own MPs voted that they have no confidence in him.
Perhaps there is some validity in now asking the question "When will the Johnson and his ever decreasing band of sycophants recognise that their behaviour is seriously damaging the Tory Party?"

Probably never.

 

[Cowley]

So, maybe, the answer to where it went wrong for the Tories was when they (and the Whigs/ Liberals) drew lines across maps ignoring the local population not thinking what might happen a few hundred years later?

Nicely done!

 

[Shrop]

News Flash - Boris Johnson has just been selected to join the UK Rock Climbing team, due to his extraordinary ability to cling on to absolutely nothing

 

[nw1]

My grasp of French is modest, but I was able to read 'Arabs go home' in the local graffiti.

I've definitely seen the equivalent in the UK, and my grasp of English is rather better than modest. This is not an argument against asylum seekers settling here by the way (I am pro-immigration), just an argument against racism being more prominent in France than the UK.