Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[Basil Jet]

Quick observation from today and I’m increasingly feeling they’ve made a bit of a mistake with the matt concrete panels at passenger level. The long passageway that links to Moorgate Northern line now has numerous footprints on the walls and this is just after a week. Over time I can see these looking very grubby without regular cleaning.

Is it possible to clean concrete without eroding it?

It is beyond my comprehension how anyone ever thought that a city accustomed to tiled passageways would view concrete passageways as an improvement.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Hello. I intend using the line next week, probably interchanging from Thameslink or southeastern at abbey wood. Obviously with my disability I will have passenger assistance but in reality what is the interchange like and how long should I allow for it? A lot of the journey planning platforms particularly Google maps are either suggesting over optimistic or ridiculously generous headways for this and so so thought I would ask the experts. Similar question at the other end, again with assistance how long should I allow from Elizabeth line terminates platforms as currently is to the departure platform for an onward purple train to Hayes and harlington?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Regarding the long interchanges... were there ever any plans published at the time that Crossrail was being designed that showed the intended station configurations, allowing the public to comment on them? I don't remember any such public consultations. On the one hand, it would seem odd if there weren't any, but on the other hand, it would seem equally odd if there had been public consultations and the question of convenient interchanges hadn't been raised at the time.

Last night I changed between EL and Overground at Whitechapel. The interchange there isn't that bad, but it still felt longer than necessary because it's right at one end of the (very long) EL platforms, so you have a long way to walk if you're at the wrong end of an EL train. And it seemed strange that from the Overground you first have go up the stairs in order to get to platforms that are actually below you. To my mind, it raises questions of: Why couldn't they build the EL platforms a bit further west so as to give better interchange, and, would it have not been possible to have a concourse at an intermediate level between the two routes (maybe that would have been too expensive?)

 

[ctom_s]

So annoyingly the District Line was all kinds of messed this morning! so I stayed on the c2c to Fenchurch Street, got the Circle (after a 13 minute wait!) to Liverpool Street, and got the EL to Paddington from there. End to end journey was 1 hour 45 minutes.
Next time I’ll have how much quicker it is via Whitechapel.
The EL stations seemed lovely, a much much nicer travelling experience than the Tube!

If it ever happens again probably better with the slightly longer walk to Aldgate to get far more trains (or walk to Lpool street directly, though that is longer). But yes via Whitechapel will be best when the district line is up and running again.

 

[iphone76]

Ah ok. So essentially, 0620 is in public service but you are unlikely to be able to board it. And 0623 from Paddington I guess. Cheers.

Wait, I'm probably overthinking this but what if you are at Canary wharf at 0620. Can you join the train that left ABW at 0610?

Basically, once the station opens (at 0620 im told), you can board any train, whatever time that may be.

 

[Taunton]

The trend for increased length, less convenient interchanges has been developing for many years, it's not that things are filling up, more that such projects are seen as independent in their own right, rather than as an integrated part of the network. The JLE was the start of the rot setting in.

I remember arguing years ago that Custom House should have two island platforms, Crossrail in the centre and the DLR looped around them for direct cross-platform interchange. Had the Victoria Line designers still been around it would have been done, but every excuse under the sun was given why it was not possible - although never mentioned was that Crossrail would now erect a Berlin Wall of gatelines inside there to keep other TfL service ticketholders out.

 

[345 050]

I would allow 10 minutes at Abbey Wood and 15 minutes at Paddington.

Hello. I intend using the line next week, probably interchanging from Thameslink or southeastern at abbey wood. Obviously with my disability I will have passenger assistance but in reality what is the interchange like and how long should I allow for it? A lot of the journey planning platforms particularly Google maps are either suggesting over optimistic or ridiculously generous headways for this and so so thought I would ask the experts. Similar question at the other end, again with assistance how long should I allow from Elizabeth line terminates platforms as currently is to the departure platform for an onward purple train to Hayes and harlington?

 

[Jamiescott1]

The trains to Abbey wood from Paddington show up on the gwr app when looking at Paddington departures

 

[JaJaWa]

The trains to Abbey wood from Paddington show up on the gwr app when looking at Paddington departures

I’ve noticed most (all?) of the apps still do this on Sundays when you can’t actually board the trains

 

[stuu]

The trend for increased length, less convenient interchanges has been developing for many years, it's not that things are filling up, more that such projects are seen as independent in their own right, rather than as an integrated part of the network. The JLE was the start of the rot setting in.

I remember arguing years ago that Custom House should have two island platforms, Crossrail in the centre and the DLR looped around them for direct cross-platform interchange. Had the Victoria Line designers still been around it would have been done, but every excuse under the sun was given why it was not possible - although never mentioned was that Crossrail would now erect a Berlin Wall of gatelines inside there to keep other TfL service ticketholders out.

Crossrail was deliberately designed with longer interchange tunnels. This has the effect of spreading out the load so there is more even flow and also fewer escalators/gatelines are needed and there are less pinchpoints within the tunnels. TfL were already aware that very short interchanges as on the Victoria line are a problem for capacity because you get big surges of passneger numbers, which can actually reduce capacity on the network. There was a London Reconnections article about it ~10 years ago. It's a similar principle to variable speed limits on motorways making average journeys faster but individual ones slower.

Obviously that is at the expense of passenger convenience for the rest of time

 

[Cricketer8for9]

And how might one have designed JLE interchanges to allow significant cross platform connections?

 

[ijmad]

TfL boss gives Bond Street station opening update

We absolutely see that as just one stage. Already we are all over 5B Minus and getting Bond Street finished. It is very much our intention that we will get 5B Minus up and running in the autumn, concurrent with Bond Street being open. That has to be an objective, to do the two at the same time, rather than having too many sub-categories. We’ve got all the right people absolutely focused on it.

So looks like we will be waiting until Q4 until integration of East/West services, with Bond Street likely opening at the exact same time. Stage 5B minus refers to the existing east/west timetable but continuing services into the tunnels, Reading/Heathrow to Abbey Wood, and Shenfield to Paddington.

Big savings on the cost of maps.

 

[AM9]

Crossrail was deliberately designed with longer interchange tunnels. This has the effect of spreading out the load so there is more even flow and also fewer escalators/gatelines are needed and there are less pinchpoints within the tunnels. TfL were already aware that very short interchanges as on the Victoria line are a problem for capacity because you get big surges of passneger numbers, which can actually reduce capacity on the network. There was a London Reconnections article about it ~10 years ago. It's a similar principle to variable speed limits on motorways making average journeys faster but individual ones slower.

Obviously that is at the expense of passenger convenience for the rest of time

The alternatives would be:

1) events where severe congestion causes delays both on the lizzie and the rest of zone 1 lines.​

or​

2) even larger interchange facilities possibly making funding more difficult and construction longer.​

 

[racyrich]

So annoyingly the District Line was all kinds of messed this morning! so I stayed on the c2c to Fenchurch Street, got the Circle (after a 13 minute wait!) to Liverpool Street, and got the EL to Paddington from there. End to end journey was 1 hour 45 minutes.
Next time I’ll have how much quicker it is via Whitechapel.
The EL stations seemed lovely, a much much nicer travelling experience than the Tube!

Living in sunny Basildon I have wondered what is the quickest way to get onto Crossrail.
Upminster-Romford
West Ham - Jubilee - Stratford
West Ham - District - Whitechapel
Some means from Fenchurch St which would involve walking to one of Tower Hill, Aldgate or straight to Liv St.

I suspect the Jubilee line method would win

 

[grandgarrande]

The alternatives would be:

1) events where severe congestion causes delays both on the lizzie and the rest of zone 1 lines.​

or​

2) even larger interchange facilities possibly making funding more difficult and construction longer.​

Yes, that is true before the pandemic getting into/out of Holborn and Oxford Circus stations during peak hours was a nightmare. This is also the reason why Victoria station is one way.

(Generally the Victoria Pre-Pandemic was full northbound from Stockwell - Warren Street)

 

[345 050]

Yes, that is true before the pandemic getting into/out of Holborn and Oxford Circus stations during peak hours was a nightmare. This is also the reason why Victoria station is one way.

(Generally the Victoria Pre-Pandemic was full northbound from Stockwell - Warren Street)

Also caused Oxford Circus to have to be closed on an almost daily basis for crowding issues.

 

[Envy123]

Also caused Oxford Circus to have to be closed on an almost daily basis for crowding issues.

And Victoria's main entrance was closed on a lot of the days that I commuted, too.

 

[Dr Hoo]

And Victoria's main entrance was closed on a lot of the days that I commuted, too.

And King's Cross (obviously a lot of lines close together before the rebuilding for the Northern Ticket Hall, etc.).

 

[345 050]

And Victoria's main entrance was closed on a lot of the days that I commuted, too.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that joyful experience.

Post pandemic I've not seen Victoria closed like that. Paddington is still regularly shut, but that was pre Elizabeth Line ...

 

[Taunton]

One really does have to wonder how TfL (and National Rail in places too) can have a combination of :

- Ever increasing subsidy levels
- Overcrowding and overfull trains leading to widespread station close-offs
- Most lines running at maximum frequencies
- Highest urban system fares in the world
- New developments like Crossrail having to be paid wholly out of public funds rather than any operating surplus

Any one of these might arise, but not all of them together.

 

[JonathanH]

One really does have to wonder how TfL (and National Rail in places too) can have a combination of :

- Ever increasing subsidy levels
- Overcrowding and overfull trains leading to widespread station close-offs
- Most lines running at maximum frequencies
- Highest urban system fares in the world
- New developments like Crossrail having to be paid wholly out of public funds rather than any operating surplus

Any one of these might arise, but not all of them together.

You missed out prospective industrial action from the list.

 

[SynthD]

One really does have to wonder how TfL (and National Rail in places too) can have a combination of :

- Ever increasing subsidy levels
- Overcrowding and overfull trains leading to widespread station close-offs
- Most lines running at maximum frequencies
- Highest urban system fares in the world
- New developments like Crossrail having to be paid wholly out of public funds rather than any operating surplus

Any one of these might arise, but not all of them together.

• Not true
• Barely true since covid or Liz, let alone both
• Yes, until upgrades come
• Yes, because of 1 (truth, not your claim)
• Not true

Where are you seeing these problems on mainlines?

 

[Envy123]

And King's Cross (obviously a lot of lines close together before the rebuilding for the Northern Ticket Hall, etc.).

I learn something new every day.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that joyful experience.

Post pandemic I've not seen Victoria closed like that. Paddington is still regularly shut, but that was pre Elizabeth Line ...

It was such a painful commute, because of that on the return journey and spending a lot of time at Finsbury Park to get on a train on the way there.

It is easier to commute long-distance directly to a mainline station, rather than live in London and cross it in rush hour. Even now, three legs on a journey seems like overkill.

 

[345 050]

Central line and H&C severely disrupted, how is EL doing with the extra passengers?

 

[Horizon22]

Central line and H&C severely disrupted, how is EL doing with the extra passengers?

Last week, on the first day the H&C, Jubilee and District all had severe delays and all seemed well, so it should be OK. Plus its half-term, so probably a slightly reduced passenger flow anyway.

 

[bicbasher]

Regarding the long interchanges... were there ever any plans published at the time that Crossrail was being designed that showed the intended station configurations, allowing the public to comment on them? I don't remember any such public consultations. On the one hand, it would seem odd if there weren't any, but on the other hand, it would seem equally odd if there had been public consultations and the question of convenient interchanges hadn't been raised at the time.

Last night I changed between EL and Overground at Whitechapel. The interchange there isn't that bad, but it still felt longer than necessary because it's right at one end of the (very long) EL platforms, so you have a long way to walk if you're at the wrong end of an EL train. And it seemed strange that from the Overground you first have go up the stairs in order to get to platforms that are actually below you. To my mind, it raises questions of: Why couldn't they build the EL platforms a bit further west so as to give better interchange, and, would it have not been possible to have a concourse at an intermediate level between the two routes (maybe that would have been too expensive?)

Use the lifts instead, they go to platform level for the ELL Overground platforms.

 

[345 050]

Use the lifts instead, they go to platform level for the ELL Overground platforms.

Yes lifts are good for Overground-EL but still a pain for DL-EL interchange

 

[samulih]

Is it possible to clean concrete without eroding it?

It is beyond my comprehension how anyone ever thought that a city accustomed to tiled passageways would view concrete passageways as an improvement.

yes, with right techniques and if I remember those videos, they can easily also change those panels, as they are same in the whole EL system.....

 

[Rail.Fan]

It’s good to see EL already being used by many and it’s impact will continue in the Autumn. It’s a shame no real consideration was given into the design of Abbey Wood station to extend services further towards Dartford as if the station was designed appropriately it would be easier to start this if demand continues to grow on this leg of the route. SE services on the loops with TL/EL services towards Dartford might be a sensible idea.

 

[londonteacher]

It’s good to see EL already being used by many and it’s impact will continue in the Autumn. It’s a shame no real consideration was given into the design of Abbey Wood station to extend services further towards Dartford as if the station was designed appropriately it would be easier to start this if demand continues to grow on this leg of the route. SE services on the loops with TL/EL services towards Dartford might be a sensible idea.

Provision is there at Abbey Wood for an extension (safeguarded route is to Ebsfleet if I recall correctly) currently just one track but would not take much for the second as the space is there. This would only take the closure of the Felixstowe Road entrance and the movement of some electrical boxes and the creation of a more suitable junction so not exactly hard work.