Locomotives Requiring Water

[Andy873]

I have been going through the BR London Midland Region sectional appendix from 1960.

It seems in this region an engine requiring water would give off 1 long and 3 short whistles at a designated place.

On my old line that's at Padiham signal box. Now trains going East are told to signal here and get the water at Gannow Junction - but that's three signal boxes away... How did a signal man in a box tell the other box this engine is requesting water when it gets to them?

Was it a simple a telephone that box? or pass it on to the next box?

Also, if we go back in time to say 1920 before the big four companies, it seems a train from one company using another companies line had to get a water ticket? is that correct? and if so would you have to go to the near by signal box to obtain one?

I seem to remember a notice from the L&Y stating that non L&Y engines requiring water must obtain a water ticket.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Taunton]

If it was the next box, a special bell code.

If a distance away, as here, then telephone.

Yes, water from another company's column had to be paid for. Passed through the clerk who did the local shed accounts and ended up at the Railway Clearing House.

 

[John Webb]

Andy - there were usually two major types of phone system in each signal box. There would be 'private' lines communicating with the box on each side, essentially for urgent calls for operational needs that could not be interrupted by anyone. Then there would be one or more 'omnibus' circuits linking a number of boxes/stations/controls together and using a coding system of long and short rings to alert any particular telephone from another.

It is most likely that in the case you describe that the signalman would contact the more remote box via the omnibus circuit to explain the passing loco was asking to stop for water so the remote box could make the appropriate arrangements.

No idea at all about 'water tickets'.

 

[Andy873]

If it was the next box, a special bell code.

If a distance away, as here, then telephone.

Yes, water from another company's column had to be paid for. Passed through the clerk who did the local shed accounts and ended up at the Railway Clearing House.

Thanks for that, never thought water would have to be paid for but then again most things costs something.

Andy - there were usually two major types of phone system in each signal box.

Interesting fact, not heard that before. With all those telephone wires running along side the tracks it was clear to me that some sort of telephone system would be in place as well as the bell code system, thanks.

I'm guessing the object of these phone systems was to avoid the cost of using the G.P.O.s one and use the railways "free" ones.

 

[Taunton]

I'm guessing the object of these phone systems was to avoid the cost of using the G.P.O.s one and use the railways "free" ones.

Other way round, the railway telephone (and indeed initial telegraph) system pre-dated the public post office and predecessor systems. It was a while later before the public system (which initially used those railway telegraph poles, hence all the wires) was extended to give comparable coverage. The "S&T" (Signals and Telegraphs) department has long been a major element of the railway - nowadays of course they do all the computers.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Interesting fact, not heard that before. With all those telephone wires running along side the tracks it was clear to me that some sort of telephone system would be in place as well as the bell code system, thanks

This gets mentioned a bit on Adrian Vaughan’s book about working in the boxes at/near Challow.

 

[Gloster]

There could also be telephones that linked the box with the District Control Office (or whatever it was called in that area). Control could ring directly to one box or to a series of them and each box could ring direct to Control.

They was often an arrangement which allowed the Circuit Telephone to be connected to the GPO through the local railway telephone exchange. This was rarely done: usually a message would be passed to either the exchange or an office with a ‘phone for forwarding. At most small stations, there would probably be only one GPO ‘phone, most likely in either the booking office or the station master’s one (or both, one being an extension). There was also the railway’s own internal system (known as ‘The Dialler’ where I worked), but this quite probably didn’t get down your branch before closure: there were places in Somerset that still didn’t have it in 1985.

 

[geoffk]

What's the situation now with the water columns at Hellifield and Appleby - can all steam operators use them for a fee? The one at Hellifield was provided by West Coast Railway and I seem to recall that other operators used a road tanker on the bridge at Long Preston to avoid paying WCRC!

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone.

There could also be telephones that linked the box with the District Control Office

I keep hearing about control when signalling is involved, where would control be with regards to East Lancashire - Preston station? The WTT's I have all show East Lancashire as being under the Preston division...

 

[Spartacus]

What's the situation now with the water columns at Hellifield and Appleby - can all steam operators use them for a fee? The one at Hellifield was provided by West Coast Railway and I seem to recall that other operators used a road tanker on the bridge at Long Preston to avoid paying WCRC!

Yeah, I think there's been occasions when charters have turned up at Hellifield to use the column only to find it locked due to some disagreement over one thing or another, so now prefer to use a tanker.

RE Phones, even now boxes tend to have at least two numbers, a railway one and a local one.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks everyone.


I keep hearing about control when signalling is involved, where would control be with regards to East Lancashire - Preston station? The WTT's I have all show East Lancashire as being under the Preston division...

This was control of the traffic, rather than the signalling. The office had a general view of a large area and received telephoned reports of the times trains passed certain signal boxes or left certain stations, yards, etc. Control could then make the minute-by-minute decisions as how to cope with any delays or cancellations: where to find the crew, loco and coaches for a return working, whether to let a late-running train have priority to make up time or keep others to timetable, which trains should have priority if things have been stopped for a while.

I have a feeling that there was a Control Office at Preston, but this might have been a former LNWR office. The L&Y would have had its own somewhere as well, but whether this had remained or its work had been taken over by the former LNWR office, I know not.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thanks for that, never thought water would have to be paid for but then again most things costs something.

AFAIK, the railway companies had to pay the local water/river authority for use of water. They then treated it to remove calcium salts (so more cost), and, of course, they had to maintain the water cranes/troughs etc, so water on the railways definitely had a value.

If you look on youtube, there is an instructional video for LMS locomen, dating, at a guess, from the late 1930s, and one of the 'lessons' in the flim is how to properly water a locomotive and avoid wastage.

 

[6Gman]

AFAIK, the railway companies had to pay the local water/river authority for use of water. They then treated it to remove calcium salts (so more cost), and, of course, they had to maintain the water cranes/troughs etc, so water on the railways definitely had a value.

If you look on youtube, there is an instructional video for LMS locomen, dating, at a guess, from the late 1930s, and one of the 'lessons' in the flim is how to properly water a locomotive and avoid wastage.

To give an example of what arrangements could be:

The water supply for Llandudno Junction (6G prev 7A) came as a private supply from the Gyffin stream on the other side of the Conwy river. As the stream was tidal a weir was built to prevent salt water entering the system (salt water had a very bad effect on loco boilers). At exceptionally high tides the weir would be overwhelmed. On these occasions a trusted member of staff* was despatched to switch off the pump as late as possible (to maximise the amount available) before the salt water contaminated the fresh water in the stream.

As the tide turned the weir then had to be partially dismantled so that the salt water could drain away. In due course as the water ran fresh the pump could be switched back on and the weir rebuilt. Even with all that work involved it was still cheaper than using the public supply.

Oh, and there was a TV programme River Hunters this week on one of the digital channels (History Channel?) which featured the Gyffin stream, below the walls of Conwy Castle and the railway.


* Often my grandfather, namechecked in JM Dunn's interesting but hard to find book Reflections on a Railway Career.

 

[Taunton]

This was control of the traffic, rather than the signalling. The office had a general view of a large area and received telephoned reports of the times trains passed certain signal boxes or left certain stations, yards, etc. Control could then make the minute-by-minute decisions as how to cope with any delays or cancellations: where to find the crew, loco and coaches for a return working, whether to let a late-running train have priority to make up time or keep others to timetable, which trains should have priority if things have been stopped for a while.

I have a feeling that there was a Control Office at Preston, but this might have been a former LNWR office. The L&Y would have had its own somewhere as well, but whether this had remained or its work had been taken over by the former LNWR office, I know not.

Control was a pre-WW1 Midland Railway concept, found useful in 1914-18, but not really rolled out to the rest of the LMS until 1923.

 

[Andy873]

came as a private supply from the Gyffin stream on the other side of the Conwy river

That's a great example of not using the public water supply, and I know the area well - been many times.

They then treated it to remove calcium salts

Well, I did wonder just how clean you would need water for the engines...

Silly questions time if I may:

One of the two water columns at Great Harwood (the only one I have seen photos of) looks to be typical. It has a long vertical column and on top sits a cylindrical tank, this water column sits at the Blackburn end of the up platform.

One outlet is of the parachute type, and an inlet pipe on the other side, finally there is a fixed metal ladder for access up to the tank.

Question 1: The tank itself - is it only to hold water ready for use or was there some kind filter in there? I know the layout of the station very well but can't see anywhere the water would have been filtered.

Question 2: Supply - You've told me that using public water was the expensive option, the only other source available I can see here is a near by (500 feet away) reservoir of a local mill, would that be an option?

There is a small stream south of the station and I can see a weir, it looks as if it might have fed the mill reservoir - this stream comes off a brook which in turn comes off the river Calder - maybe this would have been the real source of water?

Question 3: The ladder - because there is one suggests ready access to the tank itself, what would you be doing up there?

Sorry these are very basic questions.

EDIT: The brook is only at one point 1,300 feet away from the station - maybe that's the likely source?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[pdeaves]

Question 3: The ladder - because there is one suggests ready access to the tank itself, what would you be doing up there?

any number of maintenance or cleaning tasks.

 

[John Webb]

In reverse order:
3. Access required to check the large ball-cock controlling the filling of the tank and other maintenance works.
2. I suspect the local water supply was used. While a look at the 25inch/mile maps of the area indicates a number of mills and other works with reservoirs, the streams you mention are all heading downhill into the Calder. There does not seem to be any mention of a pumphouse which I think would be required to get water to the station area if a source other than the town mains was in use.
1. If the tank supply is coming from the town mains it would already have been filtered and is unlikely to need any further filtration in the the tank.

Further thought: The gas works next to the station goods yard and served by the railway was operated by a local 'Gas and Water Board' - could it be that the railway got its water cheap from the gas works in return for a reduced rate in delivering the coal required by the gas works?

 

[AndrewE]

It was routine for steam road locomotives and rollers to pick up water from any stream they passed, and you can usually see the "filter" bulb on a vacuum hose carried on them.
There is also a "Thomas the tank engine" story where they do the same thing, but get a problem when a big fish blocks his boiler feed...

 

[Gloster]

Further thought: The gas works next to the station goods yard and served by the railway was operated by a local 'Gas and Water Board' - could it be that the railway got its water cheap from the gas works in return for a reduced rate in delivering the coal required by the gas works?

Probably not, as the the coal would be purchased from a colliery and the price of carrying it would be included in the purchase price, or paid separately by the colliery. There might be a reduction in the fee the railway charged for the siding connection, but it is likely that it would all be done at commercial rates. The best that the railway could hope for was getting a slightly cheaper rate if they agreed to only fill their tanks up at times of the day when other users weren’t using much.

 

[Andy873]

@John Webb, John you make some good points there, thanks for that, I never thought about the gas works.

I never knew there would be a ball cock in the tank itself to automatically cut off a refill of water after use, simple but effective - just like our good old toilets do.

Probably not

Gloster I think is on the right track here. The gas works and the railway did seem to have a very good working relationship with each other, but I don't think it was from there.

It looks like it was the local water supply.

I have to wonder why on the short 9 mile branch line they actually bothered to have any water columns at all? after all water was available at Blackburn (very close by) to the West, and at Rose Grove plus Gannow Junction to the East.

The only reason I can see is (when the line was busy around say 1900) that a shunting engine working there for a few hours may need topping up.

It's an interesting one.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[6Gman]

I have to wonder why on the short 9 mile branch line they actually bothered to have any water columns at all? after all water was available at Blackburn (very close by) to the West, and at Rose Grove plus Gannow Junction to the East.

The only reason I can see is (when the line was busy around say 1900) that a shunting engine working there for a few hours may need topping up.

It's an interesting one.

Thanks,
Andy.

I think you've mentioned that the line was sometimes used to divert traffic off the main route via Accrington.

Ponder a Wakefield-Preston coal train with a wheezing Austerity on the front. It gets sent via Great Harwood to get it off the busy Accrington line and it gets stopped at Great Harwood.

"You'll be here a while mate - congestion at Blackburn."
"I'll take some water then. Save me stopping the job at Blackburn."

 

[John Webb]

@John Webb, John you make some good points there, thanks for that, I never thought about the gas works.

I never knew there would be a ball cock in the tank itself to automatically cut off a refill of water after use, simple but effective - just like our good old toilets do....

I used to work in a research establishment setting things on fire. Our largest laboratory was equipped with a 5,000 gallon water tank over a 500gpm electrically-worked fire pump feeding four hydrants and hosereels around the building. It was fed from a three-inch main with a large ball-cock controlling the inflowing water - the float for the ballcock was over a foot in diameter! On occasions it would stick shut if it had not been used for a while and I had to climb a vertical ladder to the top of the tank to unstick it. (As an aside the tank was so sized that a one inch drop in water level equalled 50 gallons of water - a level indicator in the pump room measured in 10ths of an inch. By shutting off the water supply so the levels in the tank could be noted before and after a test, it was easy to get an idea of the amount of water needed to put out a test fire.)

But we're perhaps getting off-topic here!

 

[Taunton]

The GWR in early times purchased the Bridgwater to Taunton canal, not for its commercial carrying, which was killed by the railway, but for its water supply. The canal had in place a water feed from the River Tone west of Taunton. The 4-track Creech troughs, east of Taunton, were supplied from the canal which ran alongside at that point; it will be apparent that such an adjacent canal not only meant a steady supply, but also that the line was level there which facilitated the troughs.

At Taunton a large pumphouse and tank (still there, the huge brick structure, now listed, just east of the station on the south side) was built to raise the water from the canal, below tracks level by here, and supply it by a complex of pipework all round the station and shed. The high tank gave a huge head of water, which really blasted out. The steam pump used a shed fireman until the 1920s when it was converted to an automatic electric pump. There were substantial filters and sieves to remove impurities from the water.

 

[John Webb]

At Taunton a large pumphouse and tank (still there, the huge brick structure, now listed, just east of the station on the south side) was built to raise the water from the canal, below tracks level by here, and supply it by a complex of pipework all round the station and shed. The high tank gave a huge head of water, which really blasted out. The steam pump used a shed fireman until the 1920s when it was converted to an automatic electric pump. There were substantial filters and sieves to remove impurities from the water.

Here, from the Geograph website, is one of a number of photos of the tank and pumphouse- click on the photo to go to the larger original:
Taunton: railway water tank

© Copyright John Sutton and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

 

[Rescars]

Thanks for that, never thought water would have to be paid for but then again most things costs something.


Interesting fact, not heard that before. With all those telephone wires running along side the tracks it was clear to me that some sort of telephone system would be in place as well as the bell code system, thanks.

I'm guessing the object of these phone systems was to avoid the cost of using the G.P.O.s one and use the railways "free" ones.

Going back to the OP, in my BTC Code Book I can find special telegraph codes to advise when water became unavailable and also that the supply had been restored. I can also find codes requesting and diverting loco coal supplies too. But strangely nothing about a loco requesting a stop for water somewhere ahead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2022 ==

It was routine for steam road locomotives and rollers to pick up water from any stream they passed, and you can usually see the "filter" bulb on a vacuum hose carried on them.
There is also a "Thomas the tank engine" story where they do the same thing, but get a problem when a big fish blocks his boiler feed...

I am no expert, but doesn't the mineral content in the water make a big difference to scaling, the risk of priming etc? So it's preferable to be choosey about where to pick up water if you have the option. IIRC one of the reasons the Bluebell has its locos shedded at Sheffield Park is that the water there is very loco-friendly whilst the water at Horsted Keynes is quite the opposite.

Alas poor Thomas! D L Smith recounts the tale of a loco on the GSWR in which an eel lived in the tender tank and made a fine job of keeping the filters clean. The poor creature came to a sad end though when someone injected hot feed water back into the tender tank by mistake.

 

[30907]

In reverse order:
3. Access required to check the large ball-cock controlling the filling of the tank and other maintenance works.
2. I suspect the local water supply was used. While a look at the 25inch/mile maps of the area indicates a number of mills and other works with reservoirs, the streams you mention are all heading downhill into the Calder. There does not seem to be any mention of a pumphouse which I think would be required to get water to the station area if a source other than the town mains was in use.
1. If the tank supply is coming from the town mains it would already have been filtered and is unlikely to need any further filtration in the the tank.

The town supply came/comes from Dean Clough Reservoir at a considerably higher level, with filter beds lower down (now housing, but the manager's house in best Accrington brick survives in Ash Lane.
I suspect that's where the railway got it's water, as the brooks are not close by (nor large) and undoubtedly supplied the mill reservoirs (only one survives AFAIK) - I don't know how much waste water the mills produced and whether that could have been recycled for rail use?

 

[AndrewE]

I am no expert, but doesn't the mineral content in the water make a big difference to scaling, the risk of priming etc? So it's preferable to be choosey about where to pick up water if you have the option. IIRC one of the reasons the Bluebell has its locos shedded at Sheffield Park is that the water there is very loco-friendly whilst the water at Horsted Keynes is quite the opposite.

Agreed, but I don't think it affects the accuracy of, or is inconsistent with, what I posted. Steam road vehicles weren't high-tech and couldn't afford to be choosey.

 

[Gloster]

Going back to the OP, in my BTC Code Book I can find special telegraph codes to advise when water became unavailable and also that the supply had been restored. I can also find codes requesting and diverting loco coal supplies too. But strangely nothing about a loco requesting a stop for water somewhere ahead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2022 ==

Bell codes to pass forward a message about a loco requiring water would more likely be allocated locally, although they would probably be kept the same within each area where possible. The same would apply to loco whistle codes.

 

[Strathclyder]

Alas poor Thomas! D L Smith recounts the tale of a loco on the GSWR in which an eel lived in the tender tank and made a fine job of keeping the filters clean. The poor creature came to a sad end though when someone injected hot feed water back into the tender tank by mistake.

Stories like this really make me want to start a thread on the Glasgow and South Western Railway, presuming that's what GSWR is short for here. Some utterly bonkers stuff to be found there to say the least!

 

[Andy873]

The subject of water supply for the engines is actually a fascinating one (well to me at least).

Love the story about the ell, and the photo of the pump house is a lovely one, glad it's still there and being looked after.

The town supply came/comes from Dean Clough Reservoir at a considerably higher level

Totally forgot about the reservoir, wouldn't mind but I've been passed it many times.

Regarding the actual supply of water, I think it has to be town water at Great Harwood (GH).

If we travel back in time to when the station first opened around 1877 you can clearly see the goods yard area is far larger than the L&Y's needs. The northern / eastern side was left empty - it was clearly intended to be used in conjunction with the gas works.

These new sidings came around 1896 and where known as the "gas sidings".

It would have been in everyone's interest to co-operate, and as the gas works was owned by the Accrington District Gas and Water works I'm sure the L&Y must have got a discounted rate for the water it used - the gas works wanted easy access to coal and the L&Y the traffic.

I thought for a short time that the brook might be the source but there's clearly no pumping house and nothing there to suggest filtering the water either.

It's great how a topic can pull up comments like eels in an engine's tank - things like this would make for an interesting topic.

Bell codes to pass forward a message about a loco requiring water would more likely be allocated locally, although they would probably be kept the same within each area where possible. The same would apply to loco whistle codes.

It certainly seems like 1 long and 3 short whistles was standard for the LMR in 1960, it's listed along with other whistle codes in the sectional appendix of 1960.

Thanks,
Andy.