Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[Thermal]

I would highlight for those looking in, whilst many staff have had no pay rise for years and pay is therefore at the forefront, there are other factors causing widespread discontent at many TOC's and NR that are all playing into the current issues. Staff generally understand that this will be a period of change and are open to addressing the challenges in a constructive manner, but that is simply not being allowed to progress as industrial relations are in a terrible position. Consultation is non existent and management are taking the beat them with the big stick and if they complain, beat them harder approach. Morale amongst colleagues is the worst I personally have ever known and the powers that be appear to be continuing down this route no matter what. Many staff are left in the position of not wanting to strike but seeing no alternative. Obviously this is written from the staff perspective, but when you are the one voting on action and there isn't even a hint of an olive branch in sight, what else can you do?

 

[Starmill]

And yet the government are deciding it is exactly the right time to force through NR cuts, raid pension pots and then attack the guard grade on a national scale rather than one per TOC basis....

Of course there needs to be a balance of risk/rewards, but currently he future is bleak for the industry from a DfT perspective. We're (TOC) running 80% service and are consistently at 77-79% for both revenue and passenger numbers. Any numbers in excess of that is growth of pre-covid levels! The railway isn't failing in the way the government are putting forward.

Therefore in my eyes, the risk of not striking now is far greater than the risk of doing nothing

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==


I was previously in an industry with next to no unions, I'm well aware the difference they make and we are starting to see new unions pop up to deal with new industries such as Amazon and Starbucks in the US. I hope that follows over here.

I can't comment on maritime, but bus industry includes far more operators and is far harder to deliver substantial hits due to this. You have cities live London where many operators operate Tfl, then you have cities with monopolies like NE in Birmingham which would be far easier and a bigger impact. But these cities have excellent rail networks that are already used extensively by the majority who have a choice. Where I live now there are next to no buses, mostly hourly at best so any industrial action would barely be noticed by the vast majority of local people.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==


Do you think a 10% rise would pay for that to be incorporated? After 3 years of no rises so already out of pocket?

That wouldn't even buy the Sundays being included in the working week! Removing of any t&C's rightly need buying off grades.

I'm all for bringing the railway into the future, but doo/automation is merely a pipedream.

There are a number of genuinely persuasive reasons to suggest that train operator and Network Rail staff are overdue pay rises for this year. In particular, look at the substantial training costs the industry is facing, and the opportunity for productivity improvements through harmonisation on the operations side, and the increasing demands on the infrastructure from the weather and from drives to improve punctuality, safety and economies of scale on the maintenance side.

I would have expected a trade union delegation to be persistently making the case that there's an opportunity to put a small real wage rise to good use with some things that the government would actually earn benefits from. For example, CPI+1% for this year and two subsequent years, then a year's freeze, then repeat. In exchange there would be wholesale re-contracting across the industry. And bam you have a six year pay deal thrashed out, with two of the six years agreed in advance at no increase. This is how it could be done. Of course once you go past work to rule and deploy strike action you have no further leverage, so from the union's perspective that's the situation you always want to avoid. However I don't think that the RMT takes this perspective. I think that in general however Aslef do. I note that one of Mr Shapps' criticisms of RMT is that strike action is deployed too early, rather than being viewed as a last resort.

 

[Swanley 59]

I'm not without sympathy for the rail workers voting for industrial action, but as a someone who relies upon the train to get to work, any prolonged strike would be a very bad news for me personally. I've recently had to stop driving for medical reasons. If the railway is shut down for an extended period, I'm faced with a 2.5 hour bus journey each way as opposed to a 50/55 minute train journey.

My wife has just been made redundant. She worked in HE, was a loyal UCU member, and finds herself a victim of a very difficult post-Covid market for home students. Her subject was summarily axed, and there was nothing neither she nor her union could do about it. On the other hand, I can look forward to a 2% pay rise this summer...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As I’ve said above I think a decent rise in basic pay will be offered (say 10%) but with substantial strings attached to modernise methods of working over a period of time (accepting it can’t happen overnight).
There is no doubt jobs will go particularly in ticket offices for example.

Absolutely this. Things can not possibly continue they way they are.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Surely this is some kind of wind-up? "... privatisation...a success..."?

Such a 'success' that the rail industry is being effectively renationalised.

Privatisation was such a failure that even the current bunch of disaster capitalists we have in power can't justify it continuing.

My point was privatisation only worked (whatever you feel the railway didn't fall over) because railway folk did what they always do and just get on with the job of running the railway was the point i was trying to get across. As to full renationalisation the juries out ScotRail an utter shambles, Northern following closely behind LNER doing well but still receiving a hefty subsidy despite all the hype about it ridership levels. One of the most succesful operators in the UK has been London Overground not private not nationalised but I would suggest the best of both worlds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 9% inflation figure is likely to be a temporary feature, having been brought about by the recession caused by Covid (furlough, supply chain disruption etc).
Even the large energy price hikes are to do with how production and supply was impacted by Covid, notably in China.
The war in Ukraine has exacerbated these factors, is still working its way through the supply chain (grain etc), and is harder to predict, as is the long-term impact of Brexit (labour shortages etc).
But the underlying level of reported inflation should begin to drop out of the indexes next year.

By contrast, pay and pension rises are permanent, even if inflation next year is back to "normal".
That's why it's unlikely public pay settlements are going to be anything like this year's instantaneous inflation rate.
The government seems to have settled on about 3% as a general settlement (pensions etc).

 

[the sniper]

Agreed, 10% - subject to all the 'silliness' over Sundays, DOO, automation etc etc being accepted.
Alternatively, a full objective job evaluation to ensure that all roles are correctly rewarded for the skills required.

A below inflation pay rise for one year, to essentially sell out everything that has ever been defended and make a large swathes of the workforce redundant... Are we discussing what a trade union should do or assessing your dreams?

 

[takno]

The 9% inflation figure is likely to be a temporary feature, having been brought about by the recession caused by Covid (furlough, supply chain disruption etc).
Even the large energy price hikes are to do with how production and supply was impacted by Covid, notably in China.
The war in Ukraine has exacerbated these factors, is still working its way through the supply chain (grain etc), and is harder to predict, as is the long-term impact of Brexit (labour shortages etc).
But the underlying level of reported inflation should begin to drop out of the indexes next year.

By contrast, pay and pension rises are permanent, even if inflation next year is back to "normal".
That's why it's unlikely public pay settlements are going to be anything like this year's instantaneous inflation rate.
The government seems to have settled on about 3% as a general settlement (pensions etc).

That isn't how inflation works. There isn't going to be deflation next year. Even if inflation goes back to normal then anybody who doesn't get a pay rise this year will effectively have had a 10% pay cut priced in "forever". If people do get a 10% pay rise then in the long term they will just be in the same place as they were last year.

 

[Starmill]

There isn't going to be deflation next year.

Of course, you're quite right in general, but surely this one rather depends on the size of the coming crash! It's feasible for inflation to fall to zero in a year's time if the crash is severe enough and international enough.

 

[WesternLancer]

Has there been any indication of when the strikes would be?

 

[Starmill]

Has there been any indication of when the strikes would be?

There can't be until after the next tranche of ballots are returned and counted. Except for TransPennine Express where there will be strikes the coming Sunday, Saturday 4 June and the following Sunday, and the various overnight strikes affecting the Central, Victoria and Jubilee London Underground lines.

 

[Egg Centric]

Questions to help me "make up my mind":

1. Am I right in thinking that (insert railway job e.g. driver, site manager, guard, signaller, planner etc) salary/benefit packages have gone up enormously adjusted for inflation until Covid hit in 2019 since:
   a. 1980?
   b. 1990?
   c. 1995?
   d. 2000?
   e. 2005?
   d. 2010?
   f. 2015?
2. If they stayed stagnant for a couple of years even with 10% inflation would the above still be the case?
3. Has there been some substantial difference in the basic difficulty of the role since then? And if so what?
4. Is it difficult to recruit for the role?
5. How many are leaving for pastures new?
6. How does the pay compare against similar roles internationally?
7. How does the pay compare against jobs of similar complexity and responsibility locally?
8. Most crucial question - how do the above questions compare to answers for other government employees such as nurses, teachers, etc

It is my understanding that the answers to the above questions are ones such that the only sensible objective response to a national rail strike by government is "bring it on" and "fire and rehire" but I equally acknowledge my understanding may be totally screwed so would be interested in what the correct answers are.

 

[Annetts key]

It had in effect its own furlough scheme with the taxpayer keeping it open throughout the pandemic (this despite the hostile environment created with "essential travel only" messages and the stigmatisation of public transport with compulsory mask wearing).

Jobs have still been lost though through the industry wide voluntary severance programme.

Yes, some have been lost through various voluntary severance schemes. But not from Network Rail operations or Network Rail maintenance. There may well be other parts of the railway where there has not been an voluntary severance scheme. So it’s not really a industry wide voluntary severance programme.

Do you know where the public can monitor where the donations currently being solicited are coming from?

National Dispute Fund (DOO Disputes)

This fund is to help members who are having financial difficulties. It does not fund the union itself.

If, as a previous poster wrote, "the talent pools are overflowing with applicants" why would employers (Governments) pay more or improve Ts&Cs?

An effectively nationalised railway has to compete for funding with other public services, some of which have staff shortages and a shortage of applicants. Surely the money is better spent on those?

A signaller getting a pay rise may be delaying his granny getting her hip replacement.

But the railways have vacancies. Not in every area, but enough to cause operational difficulties. The Network Rail apprenticeship scheme often suffers from 50% (yes, half) of them leaving before they finish the apprenticeship, or soon after they get a permanent position.

Work to rule is the single most effective weapon in our arsenal, sadly our union is all for headlines at our expense!

No, the RMT will listen to it’s members, and look at what tactics look to be the most effective at persuading the companies to return to the negotiating table while taking the unions position seriously.

Strike action is a last resort. The union and it’s members don’t want to strike. But currently the companies are either not wanting to enter into productive negotiations or are being prevented from doing so.

Railways can shut too, we all know that surely ?

I am deeply concerned at the level of support from the railway staff on here for strike or other action, if this is representative of the rail industry as a whole there is clearly huge dissatisfaction, some of which, eg short staffing requiring excessive overtime, is understandable. But demanding a bigger pay increase than pretty much anyone else in the entire country is harder to justify; Yes, of course inflation means a pay cut in real terms, but that applies to everyone, including pensioners who have no choice but to live with the situation. And the question has to be asked, again, where would the extra money to fund large pay increases come from ?

Do people believe that government, when strikes start, is going to concede whatever the RMT or ASLEF demands ? I fear very much the opposite, given how utterly irrelevant to a huge proportion the railway is nowadays the Tories will simply say carry on lads. Contrary to what the RMT says the country will not grind to a halt because there are no trains, it didn't in 1994 and it certainly won't now.

Do know that the current offer is? Network Rail is offering 0%. That’s no pay rise whatsoever. If the unions are good enough to find some efficiency saving that are acceptable to the company that will pay for an increase, they may consider up to 2%. Oh, and by the way, this efficiency saving would have to be in addition to hundreds of millions of savings the company already wants to make in the maintenance organisation.

A pay increase for rail workers that matches inflation has to be paid for somehow.

If such a pay increase is negotiated this year in response to the strikes, then it will likely lead to a larger fares increase in the new year.

This in turn will drive customers away from the railways unless they have no choice but to use them. Even commuters, who are the bread and butter of many TOCs, particularly in London & The South East, have the option of working from home. Thus they have no need to buy expensive annual season tickets which give a boost to the cash flow of any TOC.

Reduced demand for rail travel will inevitably lead to cuts in services, as well as less investment in the network for the future.

I am old enough to remember the Winter of Discontent, which led directly to the election of Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister. If the unions overplay their hand in terms of strikes, then public opinion will turn against them, and probably shore up the Conservative vote at the next election.

Welcome to the capitalist world. Oh, and each year the conservative government allows regulated ticket prices to go up by RPI regardless of what the unions say.

If the cost of living goes up due to government failure or due to factors outside the country, is that the fault of the workers? So if ticket prices go up by RPI, why can’t the wages for the railway employees go up by a reasonable amount?

Given how screwed the railway’s finances are, wouldn’t you all be better doing as much overtime as possible to knacker the finances even more?!

Because the management will not allow it. They complain that they don’t have enough money in their budget. Even though they are often short staffed with unfilled vacancies.

Noticed how there's many track circuit failures and point failures of late? Are NR already instructed to cut costs?
Just my observation as a train driver

Some years ago Network Rail introduced various schemes to reduce the amount of maintenance. On most (but not all) S&T assets this was under the Reliability Centred Maintenance for Signalling Equipment (RoSE) project. Or fix on failure as some in the union call it. Network Rail are now going further. Much further. They want to now cut the scheduled maintenance tasks by 50% (yes, half) compared to what we currently do (based on the stated maintenance requirements as at the end of 2021). Some equipment will now be serviced as little as four yearly.

Meanwhile they have and are continuing to fit mobile telephone based monitoring equipment that is supposed to give advance warning of the equipment it monitors. Strangely enough, they won’t tell us how much this costs, or provide figures demonstrating how effective this is.

As a member of a union for 35 years, and a rep for over 10 I am aware how it works. However the tone is set by the union themselves as I am sure you are aware.

No, the tone is set by the employer. Good employers and good unions can normally sort out any problems and therefore they will never get anywhere near a dispute situation.

But why are we still relying on the Mark I eyeball to walk the track its madness. Monitoring track conditions should have moved on from this method of working by now. Removing the Mark I eyeball from the track means it has less chance of being run over.

The human eye of a trained and experienced person is very effective at spotting problems long before they develop into a safety critical train stopping event. And the railway does not have enough track inspection trains to cover all the route miles.

And in any event, who do you thing goes out to check what the inspection train reported?

I also don't see why rail workers should be paid more than other similar/equivalent jobs; the general public are hardly going to be sympathetic to people who already get paid very good wages demanding a greater increase than the average person is going to get.

I think the general public sees the likes of the RMT in a terrible light, and justifiably so.

I don’t see why railway workers should be paid worse than other similar/equivalent jobs. Not all railway workers get anything like “very good wages”.

And there is no such thing as an average person.

The individual members of the public each will have their own views. Some are actually very supportive of unions like the RMT that try to look after their members.

And don’t forget, the RMT is the members. The elected officials in the RMT always ask the members what they want before taking industrial action. The union much prefers serious respectable negotiating rather than industrial action.

I see that as ever whenever rail/tube workers are in dispute, many people are happy to simultaneously imply that they're not important, while somehow going on strike would be holding the country to ransom.

It's a weird country, this, full of weird people spoonfed faux-outrage by their chosen news media and too daft to realise how they're being had. PT Barnum was right.

I agree with this.

Moving toward a 'standard wage' for all, which is surely what a Marxist-led Union like the RMT wants, isn't it?

No, a standard wage for all is not what the RMT wants. I think you are confusing a union that looks after its members with something else.

There are a number of genuinely persuasive reasons to suggest that train operator and Network Rail staff are overdue pay rises for this year. In particular, look at the substantial training costs the industry is facing, and the opportunity for productivity improvements through harmonisation on the operations side, and the increasing demands on the infrastructure from the weather and from drives to improve punctuality, safety and economies of scale on the maintenance side.

I would have expected a trade union delegation to be persistently making the case that there's an opportunity to put a small real wage rise to good use with some things that the government would actually earn benefits from. For example, CPI+1% for this year and two subsequent years, then a year's freeze, then repeat. In exchange there would be wholesale re-contracting across the industry. And bam you have a six year pay deal thrashed out, with two of the six years agreed in advance at no increase. This is how it could be done. Of course once you go past work to rule and deploy strike action you have no further leverage, so from the union's perspective that's the situation you always want to avoid. However I don't think that the RMT takes this perspective. I think that in general however Aslef do. I note that one of Mr Shapps' criticisms of RMT is that strike action is deployed too early, rather than being viewed as a last resort.

For parts of Network Rail, the RMT and the company started talks back in October last year. Other unions joined the RMT with further discussions with Network Rail at the beginning of this year. For Network Rail maintenance, the company made it clear that they wanted thousands of jobs to go. Made up of abolishing existing vacation positions (over two thousand) plus more than one thousand currently employed people.

The RMT has discussed what that staff would get out of any possible deal, such as a pay rise. The company at first replied that there would be no pay rise. Later on they said that if the unions could identify further efficiency savings, it may be possible for a pay rise of up to 2%.

Suffice to say that when the RMT asked the members, the members were not too keen on this. Especially as the last pay deal was before COVID19 came along and made our lives a nightmare.

The RMT has also suggested various other ways in which savings could be made. But we are far from convinced that the company are interested in what the unions say.

The above relates to maintenance. Other areas have different problems. But across the board, a pay rise, a no compulsory redundancy agreement and no forced changes to working practices are common aims.

It is abundantly clear that the conservative government does not like the railways, the railway employees or the railway unions. The RMT is under no illusions about who holds the power over the railway companies and their finances. And the RMT is well aware of the changes in working and commuting that have resulted from COVID19. Plus other worldwide events.

But at some point, we have to demonstrate that the membership backs the union.

If the RMT does get a mandate for industrial action, it does not mean that there will definitely be a strike. The RMT hope that a clear overwhelming mandate from the members will demonstrate to the employers and the government that the membership is serious. And hence proper negotiations can start.

 

[yorkie]

I don’t see why railway workers should be paid worse than other similar/equivalent jobs.

Neither do I.

Has anyone actually said that?

Not all railway workers get anything like “very good wages”.

Not every grade related to railways pays good wages but on average, the rail industry pays pretty good wages I think you'll find.

 

[Annetts key]

Questions to help me "make up my mind":

1. Am I right in thinking that (insert railway job e.g. driver, site manager, guard, signaller, planner etc) salary/benefit packages have gone up enormously adjusted for inflation until Covid hit in 2019 since:
   a. 1980?
   b. 1990?
   c. 1995?
   d. 2000?
   e. 2005?
   d. 2010?
   f. 2015?
2. If they stayed stagnant for a couple of years even with 10% inflation would the above still be the case?
3. Has there been some substantial difference in the basic difficulty of the role since then? And if so what?
4. Is it difficult to recruit for the role?
5. How many are leaving for pastures new?
6. How does the pay compare against similar roles internationally?
7. How does the pay compare against jobs of similar complexity and responsibility locally?
8. Most crucial question - how do the above questions compare to answers for other government employees such as nurses, teachers, etc

It is my understanding that the answers to the above questions are ones such that the only sensible objective response to a national rail strike by government is "bring it on" and "fire and rehire" but I equally acknowledge my understanding may be totally screwed so would be interested in what the correct answers are.

Would you be so kind as to do this analysis for all our staple foods and energy prices including the price rises over the same time frame please.

In terms of equivalent jobs, a significant number of jobs in the railways don’t have directly equivalent jobs elsewhere. So how do you propose to compare?

Over your timeframe, most railway jobs have had changes to terms and conditions. For example for some groups of maintenance staff, Sundays are part of the normal working week. Some staff get no extra money for working them. While others get 10%. This is significantly different to the 1980s T&Cs where Sunday working attracted time and three quarters pay for working them.

So it’s like comparing bananas with chickens.

 

[AndyMike]

You're looking at it from the perspective of railway staff and regular passengers. 95% of the general public wouldn't be impacted if no trains ran for a few weeks or months.

Whereas many of the 5 per cent would simply be unable to do a lot of their work.

 

[Dai Corner]

Whereas many of the 5 per cent would simply be unable to do a lot of their work.

... and looked for work which didn't depend on the trains running. Eventually the railways might end up like the bus industry outside central London with the only passengers being those who had no choice or travelled free.

 

[davidknibb]

If it is thought that the railways will become largely irrelevant outside London and the South East, I wonder why the government are spending eye watering sum of money on a new HST to the North - albeit recently truncated ?

 

[Bantamzen]

If it is thought that the railways will become largely irrelevant outside London and the South East, I wonder why the government are spending eye watering sum of money on a new HST to the North - albeit recently truncated ?

A lot has happened since the approved parts of HS2 were given the go-ahead. And the very fact that parts of it were truncated should be warning enough that this government will drop or cut parts of the industry at the drop of a hat.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If it is thought that the railways will become largely irrelevant outside London and the South East, I wonder why the government are spending eye watering sum of money on a new HST to the North - albeit recently truncated ?

The last three words in your posting carry the most implication of what might well happen...

 

[Robertj21a]

If it is thought that the railways will become largely irrelevant outside London and the South East, I wonder why the government are spending eye watering sum of money on a new HST to the North - albeit recently truncated ?

Largely irrelevant outside London/SE (as much is already) - *EXCEPT* the main trunk lines. I'm sure there will always be a demand on the major routes, it should be all the regionals most at risk.

 

[Albaman]

On the BBC Breakfast programme this morning there was an interview with a person designated " railway operations consultant " or something like that . The questions asked and the replies received told us absolutely nothing. A total waste of time.

Rant over.

 

[Goldfish62]

On the BBC Breakfast programme this morning there was an interview with a person designated " railway operations consultant " or something like that . The questions asked and the replies received told us absolutely nothing. A total waste of time.

Rant over.

You're not exactly giving away a lot yourself.

What was the interview about?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

No money in the pot....

When put in context, thats more than double what TPE conductors receive for working their rest day......

I can understand the point you're making, but trying to compare one-off ad-hoc payments with an incremental salary increase which is compounded year-on-year is like comparing apples with pears in financial terms.

 

[DarloRich]

I ought to point out there are many more people working in the railway industry than guards and drivers. This forum seems to forget that and also that pay settlements for those who are not guards or drivers have been nowhere near as generous.

 

[Goldfish62]

I ought to point out there are many more people working in the railway industry than guards and drivers. This forum seems to forget that and also that pay settlements for those who are not guards or drivers have been nowhere near as generous.

Absolutely, and it's the lowest paid who are most in need of a decent pay rise in these straitened times.

 

[Bantamzen]

I ought to point out there are many more people working in the railway industry than guards and drivers. This forum seems to forget that and also that pay settlements for those who are not guards or drivers have been nowhere near as generous.

You mean like much of the rest of the country's workforce?

 

[DarloRich]

You mean like much of the rest of the country's workforce?

I am sure - but this thread isn't about "the rest of the country's workforce"

 

[muz379]

You mean like much of the rest of the country's workforce?

And what is the relevance of that to the unions that organise rail workers ?

There are other pockets of workers engaged in similar fights right now , posties are being balloted , as I have already alluded to some bus drivers have taken part in strike action over pay , the civil servants are looking like they are moving towards a dispute .And many others

 

[WesternLancer]

There can't be until after the next tranche of ballots are returned and counted. Except for TransPennine Express where there will be strikes the coming Sunday, Saturday 4 June and the following Sunday, and the various overnight strikes affecting the Central, Victoria and Jubilee London Underground lines.

Thanks for explanation of the current situation. I guess from the news coverage I had assumed the vote was in, so helpful to read your post.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

The only way to avoid widespread striking imo, is if there is some kind of meaningful government intervention on energy bills.