Scotrail RMT strike action and possible temporary service cuts to a third of services

[ComUtoR]

Is refusal to do part of your job role not gross misconduct? Sacking time. Yes, that will drag things out further but this attitude needs to go.

Would sacking people really achieve anything ? If you sacked those DIs then you just make it worse. How would that encourage new DIs if your treatment of them is so disgusting ?

Secondly, what would the procedure be to go straight to Gross Misconduct and then sacking ? Would that be a case of unfair dismissal ?


I would also hope that Management attitude of sack 'em all also needs to go. It's just as disgraceful.

 

[the sniper]

Is refusal to do part of your job role not gross misconduct? Sacking time. Yes, that will drag things out further but this attitude needs to go.

If people were obligated to do it or be sacked, you'd have no Drivers volunteer to do the role in the first place. That would seem fairly obvious...

 

[43066]

Is refusal to do part of your job role not gross misconduct? Sacking time. Yes, that will drag things out further but this attitude needs to go.

DIs are normal drivers who volunteer to do a course on instruction and then agree to take trainees with them for a small uplift in pay. If they don’t want to do it anymore (obviously accepting the resultant reduction in income) they can’t be forced to continue. I wouldn’t want to do it personally for the additional aggro (and risk) for not a lot more cash.

Even if declining to continue instructing was a justifiable reason to sack someone (which it wouldn’t be), firing drivers who will then take a year or more to replace during a driver shortage wouldn’t be very smart.

Especially as you’d then find yourself with no instructors whatsoever in very short order!

 

[Wolfie]

Is refusal to do part of your job role not gross misconduct? Sacking time. Yes, that will drag things out further but this attitude needs to go.

But are they employed on that role or as drivers who have subsequently volunteered for extra duties? I'm not sure that generating a full on drivers strike is actually a solution either.

 

[John Bishop]

Jenny Gilruth is a very optimistic woman. I personally know of at least two driving instructors at ScotRail are about to throw in the towel as soon as their present trainees have passed out and they are not alone. The only reason they are continuing as instructors is because it would be unfair on their trainees to leave them in the lurch.

Gilruth can promise all she wants but without instructors there will be very few new drivers. This is being caused by a combination of more risk for instructors, little reward and of course the present breakdown in relations.

Gilruth just needs to put her hands in her pocket and the problem is solved instantly! If they’re seriously waiting for all the Drivers to be trained before reverting back to normal timetable then we’re in for a very long wait.

I would love to see the figures for the lost revenue daily due to this emergency timetable and the loss of confidence in rail travel. I wonder how many pay rises that would pay for?

 

[320320]

Is refusal to do part of your job role not gross misconduct? Sacking time. Yes, that will drag things out further but this attitude needs to go.

The DI’s recently recruited are all temporary roles until training is completed.

Nobody is forced to remain as a DI, they can resign the role any time they wish.

 

[Falcon1200]

Gilruth just needs to put her hands in her pocket

Slight correction; put her hands in my pocket, and the pockets of every other taxpayer in Scotland.

 

[choochoochoo]

Like others have said, DIs are drivers with additional duties. Those duties include supervising another driver to learn on your licence. Now if it's my licence, it's up to me how that train gets driven.

If management came at me with an ultimatum of teach or be sacked, I'd sure as hell be driving that train a lot more than the trainee. Thus delaying the poor trainee. They can't decide how you teach the trainee in your cab, and i'd have them watching me drive and 'route learning' rather than accumulating hours.

So go ahead, make that threat, I'll just clog up the system until you decide you don't want me taking trainees as I take too long to train them. I'm still doing my job, just extra vigilantly.

 

[PaulMc7]

Slight correction; put her hands in my pocket, and the pockets of every other taxpayer in Scotland.

This is what a lot of people don't realise. If payrises happen it's a certainty that prices will and that sparks a whole other level of moaning

 

[Economist]

If the instructors all decide they don't want to instruct anymore and hand back their instructor allowances, it'll cause a lot of long-term problems, especially with there being a retirement boom starting at quite a few TOCs.

 

[Deltic1961]

Problem is if you give in this time and the unions smell blood they'll constantly threaten strikes seeing Scotgov as an easy target.

The Scottish government are failing in so many areas I don't think they care about the fallout. But somehow miraculously people still give them a working majority because its better than England apparently.

 

[PaulMc7]

Problem is if you give in this time and the unions smell blood they'll constantly threaten strikes seeing Scotgov as an easy target.

The Scottish government are failing in so many areas I don't think they care about the fallout. But somehow miraculously people still give them a working majority because its better than England apparently.

As bad as they are look at the other options. They're still better than Tories, Labour etc. That's why they do well in elections. The other options are catastrophically bad.

 

[peteb]

Just a 0603am departure from Mallaig to Glasgow and an 1815 from Mallaig as far as Fort William M-F will kill off any concept of public transport in the West Highlands. Who's going to get on the 0603 from Mallaig? I pity those who were hoping to inter-rail round Scotland this summer!

 

[Ex-controller]

There seems to be an inability or unwillingness to realise just how strong a position the drivers are in here. For it to be overcome, it will require a scorched earth policy from the Scottish Gov’t & ScotRail - and by the looks of things it’s something they’ve seriously considered. Either you come to the table to a genuine desire to come to an agreement (which will involve ceding to a lot of the drivers’ demands) or you undermine rail travel in Scotland for years to come. That’s the only two options here.

This isn’t about who is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, it’s about who holds all the cards. The drivers know this, and the Scottish Government is getting a bit of a shock. The drivers might not do themselves favours at times, but nothing that they’ve asked for here is unreasonable under the circumstances. Inflation was 9% last month. Who begins pay negotiations volunteering to take a real terms pay cut?

As an aside, isn’t it funny how when a profession is well paid but doesn’t require a university degree, the knives come out from the media and the political classes?

 

[Deltic1961]

Yeah Simon Calder covered that yesterday and mocked that it was the earliest last train ever. I had a chat with him on Twitter DM to make him aware of how farcical this situation really is.

It would be fine if everyone else was getting 9 percent but they're plainly not.

Depends how much SG want to gamble but the railway system isn't everything. There comes a point where the public won't pay tax to subsise a badly ran business and that point is very close. Transport Scotland are a disaster where the green agenda has transcended everything else. If you want funding for a cycle lane or walking path great but to hell with everything else.

 

[choochoochoo]

Yeah Simon Calder covered that yesterday and mocked that it was the earliest last train ever. I had a chat with him on Twitter DM to make him aware of how farcical this situation really is.

It would be fine if everyone else was getting 9 percent but they're plainly not.

Depends how much SG want to gamble but the railway system isn't everything. There comes a point where the public won't pay tax to subsise a badly ran business and that point is very close.

Just because others aren't getting 9%, why should railway crew sell themselves short ?

If the public weren't prepared to pay tax to subsidise a badly run business, then they'd have stopped a while back paying for MPs grossly inflated salaries and expenses.

 

[43066]

Very true. Commuters, King Coal, container traffic from the ports

King Coal was dethroned quite a while ago….

If the public weren't prepared to pay tax to subsidise a badly run business, then they'd have stopped a while back paying for MPs grossly inflated salaries and expenses.

And the NHS. And the civil service. And the education system etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2022 ==

As an aside, isn’t it funny how when a profession is well paid but doesn’t require a university degree, the knives come out from the media and the political classes?

Indeed. Unfortunately the green eyed monster is never far away on these threads!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Just because others aren't getting 9%, why should railway crew sell themselves short ?

If the public weren't prepared to pay tax to subsidise a badly run business, then they'd have stopped a while back paying for MPs grossly inflated salaries and expenses.

Public have no choice in paying taxes. Ultimately govt direct where taxes (and borrowings) are spent largely to drive their own re-election and with next Holyrood elections not due to 2026 the government can sit it out if they want.

ScotRail need to put in place a timetable that gives the passengers best service they can with the resources they can force roster. On majority of routes they are only operator so shouldn't have too many issues and NR need to just support them.

Its becoming pretty clear across all train operators there is no appetite to continue to subsidise the railway the extent thats happened over the last 24mths and every operator should have timetable that can be delivered by bases resources prepared as a contingency.

 

[philthetube]

Do you have to Join a Union when you are employed?

No but the way it works there is a need to, any issues occur and you need the union to defend you, mainly not for industrial action, but just to fully know the rules and prevent managers getting away with things outside agreements.

New recruits and retirement. Absolutely not. Staff turnover is a basic business need. There should, and most likely will, be a manpower plan in place that deals with staff turnover; whether its natural wastage or otherwise.

It's bad planning. Retirement can be predicted, so can general staff turnover. Manpower plans exist to plan and predict what staffing levels are required in the future. Again, its worth reiterating. Unplanned and unpredictable is OK. Reliance is not.

Having zero flexibility in your workforce isnt sensible and leads us to where we are today. Basing anything on the good will of your staff means you absolutely need that good will.

My depot lost 20% of staff in the year following lockdowns, 17 drivers, three were expected, the others were all early retirement.

OK but that probably wouldn't apply to Scotrail. Presuming ASLEF have an agreement in place to allow drivers to retire earlier than 67.

Drivers, same as anyone else, can retire when they like, if they can afford it, the pension scheme has provision for this, just as all schemes do.

 

[Kite159]

Having the last train from Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh (and vice versa) at 22:15 is not going to encourage people to use the train for a night out.

Places like Kilmarnock are even worse with a last train from Glasgow Central at 19:33, and only 4 trains per day to Dumfries and Carlisle.

It doesn't encourage people to plan a holiday in Scotland this summer if the train service is going to be so user unfriendly.

And of course you have to hope that Scotrail are able to operate even this reduced timetable.

The longer this goes on, the more embarrassing it will be for the Scottish Government, who will no doubt try and blame anyone else but themselves for the situation.

People will still go to Scotland on holiday in the summer time, but they will simply plan to ignore the railways and either take their own car or hire a car when in Scotland in order to visit the tourist places. The train won't be relevant.

I would imagine Edinburgh Trams could be busy with extra users who drive to the park & ride site near the airport.

Just a 0603am departure from Mallaig to Glasgow and an 1815 from Mallaig as far as Fort William M-F will kill off any concept of public transport in the West Highlands. Who's going to get on the 0603 from Mallaig? I pity those who were hoping to inter-rail round Scotland this summer!

West Coast will probably enjoy the extra customers for those using the steam trains. And Citylink will be laughing at all the extra passengers they are getting wanting to use the coaches to Glasgow. Worse hit will be the likes of Corrour which has no public road access

 

[GRALISTAIR]

King Coal was dethroned quite a while ago….

I know

 

[jayah]

This is a classic example of where change is needed and a classic example of its too hard, so we won't do it.

Recruitment should be proactive. Look forward to where you may need staff in the future and start planning and training. Generally this is what happens. TOCs do not wait for a Driver to leave, or hand in their notice, then then recruit for a replacement. That would be incredibly stupid, and doesn't happen. Notice periods are a bit of a Red Herring. So, to be honest, is route and traction knowledge. The timetable changes but routes at a Depot don't often change at the same time. Personally, I've had the same route card for about 10yrs at least. Even with all the changes at my Depot, the route card is pretty consistent. A few diversionaries drop off now and then but its just a quick refresher day. Again, that would be a management issue if the Timetable is constantly causing route and traction issues. I fully accept that a TOC can have spikes where there is dramatic change but again, poor planning leads to poor performance. Everyone knew that Covid would have an impact. Some TOCs to steps to protect that future. Some clearly took a different approach.

We have been saying it for years. Rosters are not robust enough. "The Railway" needs to take a dramatic shift away from how things are done and how inflexible they are. This ScotRail debacle really does highlight that change is needed. Give them 10% but with heavy caveats.

Overtime because wages are low is a false economy. If you have the ability to pay the overtime then you are still effectively spending the same money. Low wages means that staff will look elsewhere and potentially leave for a higher wage. This will have a negative impact because you will need to replace them. You are also reliant on those staff. The second they say no, we get to this point and the impact on your business is again, detrimental.

I come from a Retail background. The theory with a lot of their staffing is that you pay less but have more staff. Two staff on 20hr contracts are considered to be better than a single member of staff on 40hrs. One store I worked in had near a hundred members of staff on the books. Our flexibility was through the roof. If anyone went sick you could always find cover. Holidays, training, seasonal work, everything got covered. Another store I worked at only had a handful of staff and we suffered when anyone went sick and I had to go cap in hand trying to get people to work.

Rail staff tend to have high wages so are less incentivised to work overtime but they are also working full time, restricted hours and conditions, subject to all kinds of rules, procedures and policies etc., so trying to get someone in to work can be challenging at times.

It's not easy, but not impossible.

Timetables and rolling stock are constantly changing. It is rare that a new fleet introduction or major rewrite doesn't result in big problems running the main service. Even if changes are fairly localised it doesn't help as the route and traction knowledge curtails the ability of other depots to get involved.

You say proactive recruitment - with 30 organisations employing train drivers it is a sellers market. It can't be predicted unless all of those organisations run a large surplus all of the time. You'll see why that doesn't make sense either. It isn't as simple as working out retirement dates.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2022 ==

Outside parts of Glasgow, rail plays a minor role in transporting the public. I would be surprised if there is any noticeable effect on road congestion.

Sad but true.

Contrary to the Union hyperbole, the government have bankrolled the rail industry through the lockdowns, granted of their own making.

Something like £10bn doesn't buy any goodwill these days.

 

[Scotrail314209]

These temporary timetables make me thankful for the fact Stagecoach and Scottish Citylink exist.

I wonder how many customers will move over to the bus and coach services permanently once this all ends? I have no real reason to use the train.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think you'll find that quite a few already have

 

[Falcon1200]

Either you come to the table to a genuine desire to come to an agreement (which will involve ceding to a lot of the drivers’ demands) or you undermine rail travel in Scotland for years to come.

If an employer (whoever they are) concede union demands at the threat or imposition of strike or other disruptive action, it guarantees that those employees, and others, know that they can get pretty much whatever they want in future. As does anyone else employed by the same organisation.

Who begins pay negotiations volunteering to take a real terms pay cut?

No-one, but railway staff pay is not being cut, an increase has in fact been offered; Of course, inflation means that buying power is reduced, but that is a separate issue.

Just because others aren't getting 9%, why should railway crew sell themselves short ?

If the railway earned enough revenue to be able to afford such pay rises, brilliant, and the staff should share in that success; But it does not, even maintaining current wage levels depends on huge public subsidy, and increasing pay by 9% will, eventually, have to be paid for.

The question has to be asked, yet again, where would the money to pay rail staff a 9% increase come from ? Not from ticket sales, that is guaranteed, so from where ?

 

[matchmaker]

These temporary timetables make me thankful for the fact Stagecoach and Scottish Citylink exist.

I wonder how many customers will move over to the bus and coach services permanently once this all ends? I have no real reason to use the train.

Especially over 60s, who travel for free.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Especially over 60s, who travel for free.

And people under 22 with the bus pass. Citylink journeys as of late have had more and more younger people onboard.

 

[43066]

If an employer (whoever they are) concede union demands at the threat or imposition of strike or other disruptive action, it guarantees that those employees, and others, know that they can get pretty much whatever they want in future. As does anyone else employed by the same organisation.

So that’s basically an argument against the existence of unionisation and collective bargaining in the first place. I don’t doubt banning unions altogether is what many on here would like, but perhaps look at the countries where unions are indeed illegal and ask whether that’s a club we want to the U.K. to be a part of…

No-one, but railway staff pay is not being cut, an increase has in fact been offered; Of course, inflation means that buying power is reduced, but that is a separate issue.

An increase below real terms inflation is a real terms pay cut. That is the unarguable economic reality of the situation.

If the railway earned enough revenue to be able to afford such pay rises, brilliant, and the staff should share in that success; But it does not, even maintaining current wage levels depends on huge public subsidy, and increasing pay by 9% will, eventually, have to be paid for.

The question has to be asked, yet again, where would the money to pay rail staff a 9% increase come from ? Not from ticket sales, that is guaranteed, so from where ?

How does the chronically underfunded (as we are always told) NHS afford pay rises then, please?

 

[Walter Whigham]

The main factor which will concentrate minds at Holyrood is the reaction of the public to not being able to go about their daily business, perhaps not being able to get to and from work. Businesses, particularly in entertainment and hospitality, will be badly hit by the earlier last trains. Business during the day will also be hit since passengers will decide not to travel if they fear being stranded through last minute train cancellations.

The effect across the board will be significant and not to be underestimated. Indeed, if the Scottish Government does not facilitate an early solution, people will react adversely to the point where support for the SNP policy for independence will be seriously eroded still further. Recent polls suggest that such support is in a clear minority. Is Ms Gilruth prepared to put this in further jeopardy?

Another problem is that in certain places, taxis are in short supply. Witness the recent incident involving a disabled guy who through a late running Scotrail service arrived at 1.00am at Stirling and despite valiant attempts by Scotrail staff an accessible taxi could not be found to get him home to Sauchie. He stayed all night in his wheelchair until a taxi was available at 7.00am to get him back home.

 

[Falcon1200]

So that’s basically an argument against the existence of unionisation and collective bargaining in the first place.

No, it most certainly is not ! I was a Union member throughout my entire 38 year railway career, and Unions have a vital role to play in protecting and assisting their members, and negotiating pay and conditions. But in an industry like the railway, even the threat of strike action, never mind actually going on strike, has an immediate effect on passenger and freight user confidence, and after the last two years driving customers away to competing forms of transport is the last thing the rail industry needs. So the Union is absolutely entitled to demand a pay increase, but this has to be realistic and achievable, which 9% certainly is not.

How does the chronically underfunded (as we are always told) NHS afford pay rises then, please?

Now, in Scotland, from the same source as any rail staff pay rise, ie the taxpayer; Are NHS staff demanding, or being offered, 9% ?