HS2-HS1 on foot

[MarkyT]

ah. There’s no station box as such. It’s two platform tunnels, with escalator shafts down to each end through large excavated pits. But I see what you’re getting at, and £££££ please!

If the technique used for CR2 here is intended to follow that used at several central area Elizabeth Line stations, then the station tunnels would be widened out from the bored running tunnels by excavation after removing temporary lining segments along the length of the platforms. There wouldn't be any running tunnels to enlarge until the TBMs had been set loose for constructing the line as a whole, so prebuilding the station access routes for an interim purpose really doesn't make any sense at all as there would be no way of getting between them!

 

[Bald Rick]

If the technique used for CR2 here is intended to follow that used at several central area Elizabeth Line stations, then the station tunnels would be widened out from the bored running tunnels by excavation after removing temporary lining segments along the length of the platforms. There wouldn't be any running tunnels to widen until the TBMs had been set loose for constructing the line as a whole, so prebuilding the station access routes for an interim purpose really doesn't make any sense at all!

correct!

 

[plugwash]

Do we have any idea where the ticket barriers would be if/when the thing is built? i.e. will it actually be possible to walk through it without passing through ticket barriers?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do we have any idea where the ticket barriers would be if/when the thing is built? i.e. will it actually be possible to walk through it without passing through ticket barriers?

we do, and it wouldn’t, as the only way between the two stations via Crossrail 2 would be via one of the two platform tunnels. Therefore the gates must be at either end, and access through the tunnels would be gated.

 

[JonathanH]

Do we have any idea where the ticket barriers would be if/when the thing is built? i.e. will it actually be possible to walk through it without passing through ticket barriers?

The map I copied in message 156 assumed that there would be a ticket hall under Midland Road next to the British Library. [As already noted, there isn't much space underground and it looks as if the site earmarked is on the outside of the curve of the Thameslink tunnels sandwiched between those and the Northern Line tunnels.]

 

[BrianW]

The proposals for these projects typically discuss the alternatives considered and why they chose the one you know of. That applies to HS2 (ie an extra pair of tracks on the WCML) but maybe not to this link. Did the denial of the rail link include a comment, or a few detailed pages, on what passenger share they expect to be finding their own way between the two and how?

Government "not pursuing" HS1-HS2 rail link - Rail UK

Government "not pursuing" HS1-HS2 rail link -

railuk.com

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480712/hs2-east-and-west.pdf

pages 26 and 57- relate to getting between Euston and St Pancras. 2015.

So, all about 'the North'! ie North London. How things change, and accelerate ...

 

[YorksLad12]

ah. There’s no station box as such. It’s two platform tunnels, with escalator shafts down to each end through large excavated pits. But I see what you’re getting at, and £££££ please!

If the technique used for CR2 here is intended to follow that used at several central area Elizabeth Line stations, then the station tunnels would be widened out from the bored running tunnels by excavation after removing temporary lining segments along the length of the platforms. There wouldn't be any running tunnels to enlarge until the TBMs had been set loose for constructing the line as a whole, so prebuilding the station access routes for an interim purpose really doesn't make any sense at all as there would be no way of getting between them!

correct!

You people are no fun.
( )

 

[SynthD]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480712/hs2-east-and-west.pdf

pages 26 and 57- relate to getting between Euston and St Pancras. 2015.

Thanks. Section 12, from p109, is also key. Selectively quoting here to cut out non-HS2 work

In particular, the study found that an enhanced walking route would provide HS2 passengers arriving at Euston with access to the full range of international services that operate from St. Pancras, providing passengers with maximum flexibility. …
In addition, the enhanced walking routes option could be supplemented by a shuttle bus or motorised buggy for passengers with luggage or restricted mobility. …
The Secretary of State has asked HS2 Limited to work in partnership with Camden Council to take forward further analysis of the street level walking options between Euston and St Pancras, looking at cost, constructability and planning consent matters.

I wonder if they could make Phoenix road one way, with cycle lanes in both directions that golf carts are allowed in. I’d align the road for better sight lines too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks. Section 12, from p109, is also key. Selectively quoting here to cut out non-HS2 work

I wonder if they could make Phoenix road one way, with cycle lanes in both directions that golf carts are allowed in. I’d align the road for better sight lines too.

a better solution is to make it strictly access only, shared space (all level, no kerbs, common surfacing edge to edge) various ‘obstacles’ to slow down motorised traffic (cycle racks, flower beds etc). As proposed!

 

[MattRat]

Government "not pursuing" HS1-HS2 rail link - Rail UK

Government "not pursuing" HS1-HS2 rail link -

railuk.com

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480712/hs2-east-and-west.pdf

pages 26 and 57- relate to getting between Euston and St Pancras. 2015.

So, all about 'the North'! ie North London. How things change, and accelerate ...

Sounds good, except as you say, it's 2015, so I wouldn't be surprised if the plans had been dropped. Although probably best to check with a FOI request, and if it is true, petition could be started to get the project back up and running.

 

[Shrop]

Good to see a lively discussion on this subject and thank you to all who have commented so far.
I was never expecting it to lead to full support for dedicated transport between Euston and St.Pancras, nor even a covered walkway, but I maintain my original point about signing. I've not been to London for the last couple of years but I'm guessing things haven't changed much since my last transfer on foot from Euston to HS1. My main point is, it should be made easy and straightforward for pedestrians to walk this route. Those who are familiar with the area don't really have any right to belittle this matter until they know what it's like to be in an unfamiliar city, with luggage, but also to not have the confidence that many contributors to this thread clearly do.
This is neither difficult nor expensive to resolve. The starting point for anyone tackling this, is simply to put yourself at any point along the route, and look around. If you can see a sign or a painted line from every point along the route then the authorities have done their job. If you can't, then they've failed. When I last looked, there were many places between Euston and St.Pancras where you really did have to look hard and walk some distance before finding any reassuring confirmation of where you wanted to go. This should not be the case, and yet it costs very, very little to put this right.
I'm not sure when I will next make this trip, but I would sincerely hope to see some improvement in signing for pedestrians. Heaven forbid, we're not talking £billions for this, nor even £millions. For a very small investment and a bit of thought, unfamiliar (and even less unfamiliar) pedestrians really could be usefully helped here.

 

[Ken H]

Good to see a lively discussion on this subject and thank you to all who have commented so far.
I was never expecting it to lead to full support for dedicated transport between Euston and St.Pancras, nor even a covered walkway, but I maintain my original point about signing. I've not been to London for the last couple of years but I'm guessing things haven't changed much since my last transfer on foot from Euston to HS1. My main point is, it should be made easy and straightforward for pedestrians to walk this route. Those who are familiar with the area don't really have any right to belittle this matter until they know what it's like to be in an unfamiliar city, with luggage, but also to not have the confidence that many contributors to this thread clearly do.
This is neither difficult nor expensive to resolve. The starting point for anyone tackling this, is simply to put yourself at any point along the route, and look around. If you can see a sign or a painted line from every point along the route then the authorities have done their job. If you can't, then they've failed. When I last looked, there were many places between Euston and St.Pancras where you really did have to look hard and walk some distance before finding any reassuring confirmation of where you wanted to go. This should not be the case, and yet it costs very, very little to put this right.
I'm not sure when I will next make this trip, but I would sincerely hope to see some improvement in signing for pedestrians. Heaven forbid, we're not talking £billions for this, nor even £millions. For a very small investment and a bit of thought, unfamiliar (and even less unfamiliar) pedestrians really could be usefully helped here.

I am still struggling to understand why a blue line painted on the pavement would not fix much of the problem. Those with walking issues, or those with tons of luggage, or when its raining sideways, there are taxis.

 

[Mikey C]

I am still struggling to understand why a blue line painted on the pavement would not fix much of the problem. Those with walking issues, or those with tons of luggage, or when its raining sideways, there are taxis.

Or the tube (step free). Or buses

 

[plugwash]

Are there still plans to make the tube step free at Euston as part of HS2 works?

 

[MarkyT]

Or the tube (step free). Or buses

As an alternative to supplement the improved walking route and new east side entrance to Euston, I agree these are good back-ups for inclement weather, the infirm, and those encumbered by luggage, but all are slower than simply walking direct for those who can, and will involve quite a bit of walking to get to and from platforms/bus stops at each end anyway, although could be all or mostly undercover.

 

[edwin_m]

Are there still plans to make the tube step free at Euston as part of HS2 works?

They are adding a subway from the HS2 concourse to the east end of Euston Square station, which will also shorten the walk as the existing entrance is at the west end (and of course the HS2 platforms will be west of the existing so closer to Euston Square anyway). I'd be immensely surprised if this wasn't step-free, as nobody would be allowed to build something like that without making it fully accessible. The platform would also be raised to align with the doorsteps if it hasn't been already.

It's possible the whole thing would be de-scoped as part of some economy cut, but as Crossrail 2 is unlikely to happen before HS2 anything else that makes it more difficult to distribute passengers away from Euston is probably a bad idea.

 

[grove]

A recent update on this topic. It does seem whichever solution is chosen to 'link' HS1 and HS2 is going to be a big compromise and not attractive to passengers.

Link between HS1 and HS2 is key to switching UK travellers from plane to train | New Civil Engineer

High Speed Rail Group (HSRG) has said that shifting UK travellers from air to rail can be achieved by more long-distance rail services, utilising HS2’s

www.newcivilengineer.com

 

[JonathanH]

From the article quoted:

HSRE also points out that once HS2 is operational, extra capacity will be freed up on the West Coast Main Line (WCML) for new services. It believes there is an opportunity to create a new “Javelin-style service” that takes the WCML route straight to border controls at St. Pancras International and then onwards to Europe on HS1. As an example, it highlights that there are already 2,900 daily passengers flying from Birmingham and Manchester to Amsterdam, who could be tempted to switch to rail if this service was implemented.

It would still be quicker to catch an existing service to Euston and walk to St Pancras than have some convoluted service that leaves the WCML at Camden and goes to St Pancras.

 

[grove]

Quite agree. The only advantage might be for passengers from Birmingham or Manchester, say, on a through service.

An 'above the street' metro (Chicago style) linking Paddington, Marylebone, Euston, KXStPancras would be a great addition though.

 

[plugwash]

The low-hanging fruit would be to improve the signage for walking between Euston and St Pancras. It currently has a horrible gap in it, I suspect because whoever put the signage up couldn't get permission to attatch a sign to the outside of Euston station.

 

[Ken H]

The low-hanging fruit would be to improve the signage for walking between Euston and St Pancras. It currently has a horrible gap in it, I suspect because whoever put the signage up couldn't get permission to attatch a sign to the outside of Euston station.

Best way is to paint a line on the pavement to follow. No-one will get lost then - they will even have confidence. Bung in a few benches along the way for the less fit to have a sit down.

 

[grove]

This is quite true. It is such a short distance my late 80s parents took it in their stride. It's probably shorter than some of the in-station 'interchanges' on the Underground (Green Park, Bank, Monument)!

 

[jfollows]

The low-hanging fruit would be to improve the signage for walking between Euston and St Pancras. It currently has a horrible gap in it, I suspect because whoever put the signage up couldn't get permission to attatch a sign to the outside of Euston station.

That's all that's needed, and I personally wouldn't use a "shuttle bus" (mentioned in the previously-quoted report) or travelator (unless it were raining heavily). Far more important to getting people to move from air to rail is to pay attention to ticketing which is currently a complete mess for international travel from the UK.

 

[grove]

That's all that's needed, and I personally wouldn't use a "shuttle bus" (mentioned in the previously-quoted report) or travelator (unless it were raining heavily). Far more important to getting people to move from air to rail is to pay attention to ticketing which is currently a complete mess for international travel from the UK.

Also remember how far you typically are expected to walk from plane to terminal at most airports (Heathrow and Gatwick) with notable exceptions like Barra (BRR)!

 

[Mikey C]

From the article quoted:



It would still be quicker to catch an existing service to Euston and walk to St Pancras than have some convoluted service that leaves the WCML at Camden and goes to St Pancras.

And bizarre to build HS2 then suggest passengers from Birmingham and Manchester use a service going down the WCML to get to St Pancras!

 

[grove]

And bizarre to build HS2 then suggest passengers from Birmingham and Manchester use a service going down the WCML to get to St Pancras!

The irony is the Midland Pullman ran from Manchester to St Pancras! Speed isn't always the first consideration, connectivity and convenience are important for many travellers.

 

[lachlan]

Hopefully Crossrail 2 would also provide an easy underground route from Euston to St Pancras. I'm not sure what the current plans are for that.

 

[MarkyT]

Hopefully Crossrail 2 would also provide an easy underground route from Euston to St Pancras. I'm not sure what the current plans are for that.

Don't know what to read into this, but the PM apparently expressed some support for CR2 just recently. I didn't see the statement personally, as I try very hard to avoid watching him speaking, for the sake of my mental health, and to ensure survival of my TV which might otherwise be at risk from impulsively thrown heavy objects.

 

[MattRat]

And bizarre to build HS2 then suggest passengers from Birmingham and Manchester use a service going down the WCML to get to St Pancras!

It's convoluted by design. Got to make it look extremely difficult, so people just go to London instead (even though most people in their right mind don't actually want to go to London if possible).

 

[adamedwards]

And bizarre to build HS2 then suggest passengers from Birmingham and Manchester use a service going down the WCML to get to St Pancras!

The links exist at St Pancras for a train to access the North London Line and thence the WCML at Primrose Hill ie the route which would have been used by the North of London Eurostars, so techincally feasible. This would not link to HS2, but would allow a 125mph Javellin connecting main centres on the WCML to St Pancras.