TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just about Cardiff Bay. It's to allow for potential street running in central Cardiff later in the units' lives, creating something quite a bit more like Metrolink.

It's decent foresight. The mind boggles as to why people are calling for the retention of rotting old DMUs. They're just a type of EMU really, and one with the big bonus of low-floor.

 

[edwin_m]

Except the wheel profile.

If it runs through pedestrian areas, as is envisaged for the intial tramway section, then it probably needs grooved rail and hence the tram-train wheel profile.

I guess I meant both on-street and line of sight together. To put it another way, which is the best option:

Build a short bridge in Cardiff Bay which would isolate that section from cars and pedestrians, meaning the whole line could be run as heavy rail like the rest of the network – no change to any trains or other infrastructure needed.

Or have that very short on-street/line-of-sight section, which means modifying all the vehicles, changes to all the rest of the network to cope with them, plus knock-on effects on timetables etc.

One big benefit of trams is that they can be threaded between existing buildings. But in this case nearly the whole area is going to demolished and rebuilt anyway, some of it on a very different street pattern. Seems like you might as well make the effort to keep the train line away from the road in that case, if there’s no real need for on-street running.

There could be the following options (terminology may differ and exceptions may be possible with justification, but in my view unlikely to be approved):

• Railway: fully segregated (perhaps with level crossings) and signalled - no special "tram" features required
• Segregated line of sight - needs track brakes
• Unsegregated but not running with traffic (but passes through pedestrian areas and may cross traffic lanes) - also needs wheel profile compatible with grooved rail, shielding of running gear, and better driver field of view
• Running with traffic - also needs full highway lighting such as brake lights and indicators

Compared with running in pedestrian areas and crossing traffic lanes, the extra features for running in traffic are chickenfeed and might as well be included in the vehicle from new rather than being added later. For significant features to be omitted from the vehicle, it's necessary to remove the interface with other users by full segregation, with the possible exception of level crossings but new ones are unlikely to be allowed. Unless the route is elevated or underground, nobody is then able to cross it and this "community severance" effect means that it would probably be unacceptable to try to insert it into an existing urban area. For an example of what that might look like, see the DLR Lewisham extension.

 

[stuu]

I guess I meant both on-street and line of sight together. To put it another way, which is the best option:

Build a short bridge in Cardiff Bay which would isolate that section from cars and pedestrians, meaning the whole line could be run as heavy rail like the rest of the network – no change to any trains or other infrastructure needed.

Or have that very short on-street/line-of-sight section, which means modifying all the vehicles, changes to all the rest of the network to cope with them, plus knock-on effects on timetables etc.

One big benefit of trams is that they can be threaded between existing buildings. But in this case nearly the whole area is going to demolished and rebuilt anyway, some of it on a very different street pattern. Seems like you might as well make the effort to keep the train line away from the road in that case, if there’s no real need for on-street running.

It makes other extensions easier and cheaper too - Hirwaun has been proposed, if it is built to light rail standards then signalling costs are much reduced, no need to eliminate level crossings, or build expensive footbridges. There are others which could happen within the 30+ year lifespan of the trams

 

[Bletchleyite]

It makes other extensions easier and cheaper too - Hirwaun has been proposed, if it is built to light rail standards then signalling costs are much reduced, no need to eliminate level crossings, or build expensive footbridges. There are others which could happen within the 30+ year lifespan of the trams

It's a pity they can't go low-floor, as that'd ease additional stations too. Level boarding, though.

I do think "interurban" style pseudotram operations do have potential for branch lines and extensions, particularly where branch termini are in a bit of an awkward location for historical reasons. St Albans is another potential, where there could be a short extension into town.

 

[stuu]

It's a pity they can't go low-floor, as that'd ease additional stations too. Level boarding, though.

I do think "interurban" style pseudotram operations do have potential for branch lines and extensions, particularly where branch termini are in a bit of an awkward location for historical reasons. St Albans is another potential, where there could be a short extension into town.

Only if they can be fitted with rack and pinion (My first proper job was at Ford Credit next to St Albans Abbey station, I know from bitter experience how steep Holywell Hill is)

 

[D365]

They are exactly the same tram train used in Sheffield, so I would have thought they could be modified if it is needed.

No, not exactly the same.

 

[Envoy]

It's not just about Cardiff Bay. It's to allow for potential street running in central Cardiff later in the units' lives, creating something quite a bit more like Metrolink.

It's decent foresight. The mind boggles as to why people are calling for the retention of rotting old DMUs. They're just a type of EMU really, and one with the big bonus of low-floor.

Why would they have street running in Central Cardiff being as both Queen Street and Central stations are bang in the centre of the city? If they have a secret plan to run on streets in central Cardiff, then that is surely not for the greater good of the whole system and they might just as well have had electric buses - as they now have on the St.Mellons route.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I believe the check rails foul the standard Network Rail lower sector structure gauge, so every type of vehicle that uses the line has to be individually cleared. But the line through Rotherham is used by freight trains as well as Northern DMUs, so presumably this has not proved to be a show stopper in practice.

There's a (quite short) list somewhere of rail vehicles that are prohibited through the Rotherham section. Can't find the definitive list at the moment, but a Modern Railways article from 2017

Establishing a secure connection ...

says (of the Rotherham checkrails):

...After much analysis it was found that the high check rails meant Class 33 lifeguards, snowploughs and wheel skates would hit them...

 

[Dai Corner]

Why would they have street running in Central Cardiff being as both Queen Street and Central stations are bang in the centre of the city? If they have a secret plan to run on streets in central Cardiff, then that is surely not for the greater good of the whole system and they might just as well have had electric buses - as they now have on the St.Mellons route.

Indeed. I'm sure we had this debate before, perhaps on this very thread. It turned out the proponent had never been to Cardiff and was unaware that the railway ran through the city centre on embankments and bridges or that virtually all the main destinations (University, Government Offices, commercial offices, shopping areas, sport and entertainment venues) were within walking distance of Central, Queen Street or Cathays stations.

Street running in Cardiff wouldn't significantly improve access but traffic delays would bring performance risks, particularly around Queen Street station which will have to have very tight timings and the single line sections towards the heads of the Valleys.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed. I'm sure we had this debate before, perhaps on this very thread. It turned out the proponent had never been to Cardiff and was unaware that the railway ran through the city centre on embankments and bridges or that virtually all the main destinations (University, Government Offices, commercial offices, shopping areas, sport and entertainment venues) were within walking distance of Central, Queen Street or Cathays stations.

Street running in Cardiff wouldn't significantly improve access but traffic delays would bring performance risks, particularly around Queen Street station which will have to have very tight timings and the single line sections towards the heads of the Valleys.

In a parallel universe the Taff Vale lines could perhaps have been converted to pure light rail. Trams could leave the existing alignment somewhere in the Cathays area to serve the University then run through the city centre, interchange at Central and continue into the Bay. The City Line could have linked in too, somewhere around Central. This would have been entirely disconnected from National Rail so street delays wouldn't knock on anywhere else, and with cheaper tramway technology more passing loops could have been added to mitigate the effect of the single line sections. It could also have been converted to low floor and platform, with the routes via Caerphilly continuing to be a rail service with FLIRTs or similar.

But we are where we are, and that's not going to happen.

 

[geoffk]

Another difference between railway operation and a tramway running on line of sight on a segregated right of way is facing point locks - legally required on a passenger railway I believe but not on a tramway, hence the slow speed approach to facing points which I experience on Manchester Metrolink.

 

[Envoy]

In a parallel universe the Taff Vale lines could perhaps have been converted to pure light rail. Trams could leave the existing alignment somewhere in the Cathays area to serve the University then run through the city centre, interchange at Central and continue into the Bay. The City Line could have linked in too, somewhere around Central. This would have been entirely disconnected from National Rail so street delays wouldn't knock on anywhere else, and with cheaper tramway technology more passing loops could have been added to mitigate the effect of the single line sections. It could also have been converted to low floor and platform, with the routes via Caerphilly continuing to be a rail service with FLIRTs or similar.

But we are where we are, and that's not going to happen.

The valley lines - as they run through Cardiff are already segregated from the main line. As has already been said, there is no need to go onto the streets in central Cardiff. Even the buses do not use many of the streets as they are pedestrianised. If the National Rail tracks were avoided and the tram-trains took to the streets with all the probability of getting delayed, it is the heads of the valleys that would suffer most as the tram-trains would not make the passing places on time to match those going the other way. The whole system would become an unreliable shambles.

Anyway, I think we digress here from this rolling stock thread and that further discussion on the system should be in the South Wales Metro thread found under infrastructure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fundamentally even if these things never run on street at all, I don't get what the problem with them is. They look like perfectly decent light rail EMUs, a bit Newcastle Metro-like, perhaps. No toilets, but then Merseyrail, LO etc don't either, they are short journeys mostly to/from stations which do.

 

[geoffk]

No toilets, but then Merseyrail, LO etc don't either, they are short journeys mostly to/from stations which do.

But they are running to Treherbert and Merthyr aren't they, both currently an hour from Queen Street, not short journeys for many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But they are running to Treherbert and Merthyr aren't they, both currently an hour from Queen Street, not short journeys for many.

Liverpool Central to Chester is about 45 minutes, and Hunts Cross to Southport just over an hour, though admittedly I doubt many cross Liverpool on that one.

 

[Anonymous10]

Liverpool Central to Chester is about 45 minutes, and Hunts Cross to Southport just over an hour, though admittedly I doubt many cross Liverpool on that one.

many will do the journey from merthyr and treherbert to cardiff though

 

[craigybagel]

But they are running to Treherbert and Merthyr aren't they, both currently an hour from Queen Street, not short journeys for many.

The expectation is that with the acceleration of the 398s, journey times will come down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

many will do the journey from merthyr and treherbert to cardiff though

And lots of people go from Liverpool to Chester or vice versa, often connecting from another Merseyrail station, though admittedly you can use the loo while doing so, but I bet most people in fact don't.

45 minutes vs. an hour is in the same magnitude. I think the typical criterion that would be used is "more than an hour = toilets needed".

 

[WelshBluebird]

I will be interested to see what happens on the last trains back up to the heads of the valleys on a Friday or Saturday night, or on the trains back from Cardiff after a Welsh Rugby international given the absence of toilets (lets just say I hope they give the cleaners a big pay rise to deal with it). Especially with the Rugby internationals when you are headed from the queue outside the station right onto the trains, there won't be the time to use the toilets at the station.

 

[anthony263]

But they are running to Treherbert and Merthyr aren't they, both currently an hour from Queen Street, not short journeys for many.

Journey times will be reduced to 45-50 minutes from 60-65 minutes I’ve seen stated elsewhere

 

[Bletchleyite]

Journey times will be reduced to 45-50 minutes from 60-65 minutes I’ve seen stated elsewhere

Which brings it in line with Merseyrail, on which people seem to manage to hold their bladder after a pint or two.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

How will the 398's be able to run on the street from the lines in the Cardiff area? Is this to do with Cardiff Bay being demolished mentioned on here?

 

[edwin_m]

Are TfW still committed to providing a toilet on every Valley Lines station?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Are TfW still committed to providing a toilet on every Valley Lines station?

I'd have thought so given the increased frequency for trains with no toilets.

 

[CardiffKid]

Are TfW still committed to providing a toilet on every Valley Lines station?

It was never ‘every’ Vally Line station - more every few stops, so a significant increase/investment etc.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It was never ‘every’ Vally Line station - more every few stops, so a significant increase/investment etc.

For the Trerherbert line I think it was just at Treherbert, Tonypandy and Radyr (along side the existing ones at Pontypridd, Cardiff Queen Street and Cardiff Central). No word on opening times and the like though, especially considering the three stations where they say there will be new toilets are unmanned. And of course that assumes they will be open when they should be too (when I regularly used Pontypridd station 14 years ago the toilets were closed more often than they were open).

 

[Bob Price]

Up at Taffs Well this weekend and the depot is taking shape

 

[Anonymous10]

it appears the first of the new class 398 tram trains have been built. ps unsure of location of pic. https://www.instagram.com/p/CdbSYthoKnP/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

 

[Bob Price]

Tfw have also published this Tweet today of a 398 on the back of a low loader with the info that they will be testing in the UK soon. Does anyone know where they will test?

https://twitter.com/transport_wales/status/1524781456723087361?t=S3SFwCUmUIreR9K5_O9fOA&s=19

 

[krus_aragon]

Is there an oval of track ready at Taff's Well, perhaps?