Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Siemens Trains]

But at the very least I do think the 41 and 43 timetables should be properly integrated, it's pointless running two services along the same corridor at similar but slightly differing frequencies. It's just not an efficient use of resources.

In fairness the companies have usually tried to do this on the A90 corridor over the years where possible, whether First, Stagecoach 40/A or Lothian. You can see it in Sunday and evening timetables to this day (with 30 minute intervals on 41 and 43). Of course it won't always work out and you can't match 20 minute frequency with 15 or 30 minutes. Naturally there will always be delays and disruption so it would never be perfect anyway.

 

[90019]

It is well perceived the 41 drivers are at Cramond awaiting the 43 passing the junction at Barnton before they follow.

What a ridiculous suggestion.

We set off from Cramond when the timetable says to and have no idea where the 43 is in relation to the 41 unless we see it pass while waiting at the lights at Barnton.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Not sure if anyone will be able to answer this until the timetables come out, but I was wondering the following:

• 113/124: Will these be spaced at common intervals on the shared section of route? (e.g. 113 departs Waterloo Pl at xx00 and xx30, 124 departs Waterloo Pl at xx15 and xx45, giving a limited stop service to Musselburgh at 15-minute intervals).
• X6/X7: Same question.

I imagine the X5 won't be able to do the above with anything seeing as it will only be hourly?

Thanks!

 

[Siemens Trains]

Sorry to but in like this but was LCB’s X38 really never used in Kirkliston? I would of thought that given the opportunity, the residents would of bought ridacards and that it could of been popular on its own right!

Ridacards are surely of rather limited use to Kirkliston people. If you're happy to be tied down to only one of the X38 operators, season tickets on First are a bit cheaper. While for anyone who needs to change buses to travel around Edinburgh or go to South Queensferry, One-Ticket is only slightly more expensive and allows choice of either First or Lothian's X38 plus the 63, 600, tram, Stagecoach X51 or Horsburgh 7.
Using valuable resources to run a duplicate X38 service seems quite wasteful at the moment. And of course by the time Lothian Country started the service First had bolstered their timetable indicating commitment to the route. Not sure if it's significant or not that the X38 isn't normally run from First's Livingston depot - perhaps there's less of a business case.

 

[davp]

Ridacards are surely of rather limited use to Kirkliston people. If you're happy to be tied down to only one of the X38 operators, season tickets on First are a bit cheaper. While for anyone who needs to change buses to travel around Edinburgh or go to South Queensferry, One-Ticket is only slightly more expensive and allows choice of either First or Lothian's X38 plus the 63, 600, tram, Stagecoach X51 or Horsburgh 7.
Using valuable resources to run a duplicate X38 service seems quite wasteful at the moment. And of course by the time Lothian Country started the service First had bolstered their timetable indicating commitment to the route. Not sure if it's significant or not that the X38 isn't normally run from First's Livingston depot - perhaps there's less of a business case.

They are indeed. Only First are running the X38. There are no Lothian or Lothian Country services in Kirkliston now.

 

[CN04NRJ]

What a ridiculous suggestion.

We set off from Cramond when the timetable says to and have no idea where the 43 is in relation to the 41 unless we see it pass while waiting at the lights at Barnton.

I second this. What a completely bizarre fabrication - if anything it's better to get away on time and infront of the 43 to keep to time and not pull in behind it at every stop.

"Well perceived"? By whom?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Apr 2022 ==

11-50 drive fine, I don't get some drivers vendetta against them. It's 1 to 10 that are, shall we say... troublesome. Ive never had issues with speed on the MK2s, as long as the engine had kicked in they're fine.

Build quality is generally poor, poor driving position, i-Shift is somehow woeful in those compared to the B5LHs. 1-10......... not Volvo's finest vehicles.

14/15 have been away at Seafield for some time now and I understand some have been with Volvo? I don't mind a 7900 that much if it has a good battery pack and a smooth - gearbox. Thankfully I very rarely have to drive them now.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Ridacards are surely of rather limited use to Kirkliston people. If you're happy to be tied down to only one of the X38 operators, season tickets on First are a bit cheaper. While for anyone who needs to change buses to travel around Edinburgh or go to South Queensferry, One-Ticket is only slightly more expensive and allows choice of either First or Lothian's X38 plus the 63, 600, tram, Stagecoach X51 or Horsburgh 7.
Using valuable resources to run a duplicate X38 service seems quite wasteful at the moment. And of course by the time Lothian Country started the service First had bolstered their timetable indicating commitment to the route. Not sure if it's significant or not that the X38 isn't normally run from First's Livingston depot - perhaps there's less of a business case.

I forget Oneticket is also an option, but that was my point exactly! At least with the Ridacard (or CityWest Ticket for that matter) you can connect to other services within Edinburgh/Midlothian/East Lothian

I feel that was a selling point for the 43 when it launched with onward travel to other Lothian services, and now Kirkliston feels isolated without a Lothian service to call home, when Ratho Village which for years had a Lothian service now seems forgotten about by them.

If First for whatever reason reduce the frequency on the Edinburgh - Linlithgow corridor then Lothian would be foolish to not consider trying again, especially with the new builds in Winchburgh

They are indeed. Only First are running the X38. There are no Lothian or Lothian Country services in Kirkliston now.

I know First won the bid for the 63 months before it changed over, but that along with the loss of the X38 must of been a blow for Kirkliston residents in 2020 that loved those services

 

[eh1]

Build quality is generally poor, poor driving position, i-Shift is somehow woeful in those compared to the B5LHs. 1-10......... not Volvo's finest vehicles.

14/15 have been away at Seafield for some time now and I understand some have been with Volvo? I don't mind a 7900 that much if it has a good battery pack and a smooth - gearbox. Thankfully I very rarely have to drive them now.

A lot of 1-10 no longer have passenger stop bells - only the dashboard symbol and a relic of what was once the bong they used to make, in the drivers cab but not passenger saloon! Then you've got the loss of power sometimes pulling off, shuddering brakes.
14/15 haven't been about for a little while now, it's a shame they don't replace 1-10 with the 10 or so MK2s sitting up at Seafield for central SDs.

 

[overthewater]

I never realised No21 by First is hourly now, how on earth is Lothian not able to grab the passengers with 30min service?

 

[CN04NRJ]

A lot of 1-10 no longer have passenger stop bells - only the dashboard symbol and a relic of what was once the bong they used to make, in the drivers cab but not passenger saloon! Then you've got the loss of power sometimes pulling off, shuddering brakes.
14/15 haven't been about for a little while now, it's a shame they don't replace 1-10 with the 10 or so MK2s sitting up at Seafield for central SDs.

This is purely speculative on my part but I could see them being replaced/displaced within a year or two - maybe in the next round of electric bus funding? Volvo BZLs?

 

[wlbusser]

If First for whatever reason reduce the frequency on the Edinburgh - Linlithgow corridor then Lothian would be foolish to not consider trying again, especially with the new builds in Winchburgh



I know First won the bid for the 63 months before it changed over, but that along with the loss of the X38 must of been a blow for Kirkliston residents in 2020 that loved those services

If for some reason First altered the X38 and had reduced frequency or whatever I'd be happy to see Lothian step in again, but if it's anything like last time I doubt I'd use them unless the First option was really bad for my use.
I go into Edinburgh for work and sometimes leisure (Within the city centre) along with a trip to Livingston once or twice every few weeks, and so for me First just nailed it with their offering vs LC (Not saying First are the greatest or anything)

With First I could get a better value weekly ticket vs LC who's offering was 5 day tickets that where more expensive (£26 Vs £24 which is now £18), and the fact First run the 600 made it easier to get to Livingston.
I know LC tickets allowed travel on Lothian services in Edinburgh but I never needed that more than once in a while, and if I wanted to go out say on a midweek day off I'd have to use up a day ticket with LC where as on First I have the one ticket that lasts all week so can use it whenever I want (I don't always have the same shifts each week).

 

[eh1]

This is purely speculative on my part but I could see them being replaced/displaced within a year or two - maybe in the next round of electric bus funding? Volvo BZLs?

The BZLs look awesome - I'd love to see a render of one in livery.

wonder how long we will have the 300s with us? I imagine a few more years given they're still getting fresh coats of paint. They still drive well!

 

[ScotRail158725]

wonder how long we will have the 300s with us? I imagine a few more years given they're still getting fresh coats of paint. They still drive well!

Paint doesn’t mean much though, look at Arriva and First withdrawing and scrapping buses they painted within the past year. I reckon it’s likely that the 11 plates will go before the Ex London stock does

 

[scosutsut]

100% guesswork but I don't get the impression Lothian are bought into electric at all. Think of all the times they've been burned, figuratively speaking.

Notice how they were early and outwardly public about their Bus2020 commitment (Euro 5+ only) - by my calculations they are already at, or on the cusp of achieving Euro 6+ only (thus satisfying the Edinburgh LEZ before it hits.)

Other big operators have made "no more diesel" pledges but nothing like that from Lothian.

I think they are sitting on their hands and I don't expect anything major order wise for a while. They've bought themselves time to do this.

Bar the odd exception (heavily refurbished Motorcoach / Three Bridges Geminis) the frontline fleet is all under 13 years old so I'd not expect significant orders to land before 2024 as thats the next time batches of vehicles will reach 15 years old which was the previous trigger point for renewal.

That will give the rest of the industry time to recover too and buyers for well looked after Euro 6 deckers should be ten to the dozen as more and more low emission zones continue to spring up around the country and school bus fleets will need modernising.

Would also allow technology to improve and prices to fall on new vehicles, although diesel options may continue to disappear forcing the hand to turn to either electric or hydrogen.

Safe from my armchair that's my take on things.

 

[eh1]

Paint doesn’t mean much though, look at Arriva and First withdrawing and scrapping buses they painted within the past year. I reckon it’s likely that the 11 plates will go before the Ex London stock does

The ex Londons feel a lot fresher, remember they had a full refurb when they joined the company. They also feel "newer" to drive, I think a lot of drivers are a fan of them. Agreed with the point about electric, I'm expecting to see a few different demonstrators over the next few years.

 

[ScotRail158725]

The ex Londons feel a lot fresher, remember they had a full refurb when they joined the company.

Yes the fact they had a full interior refurb, converted to single door and also had the likes of engine remapping too

 

[Graeme Duncan]

905-906 and 841-850 are 14 and 15 years old respectively.

 

[stevenedin]

The ex Londons feel a lot fresher, remember they had a full refurb when they joined the company. They also feel "newer" to drive, I think a lot of drivers are a fan of them. Agreed with the point about electric, I'm expecting to see a few different demonstrators over the next few years.

I also feel like they are really nice to travel in especially when they go fast.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think we'll see a few more deckers sometime late this year before the the Bee 5TL chassis disappears which a reasonably reliable source tells me will happen. I seem to recall them doing something similar when the end was near for the b9tl


I can imagine them looking for replacement for for some of the older singles at East coast and country which will either see new stock or perhaps the cascade of the the 7900 or at least some of them to these operations and new stock purchased for city operations

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I think we'll see a few more deckers sometime late this year before the the Bee 5TL chassis disappears which a reasonably reliable source tells me will happen. I seem to recall them doing something similar when the end was near for the b9tl


I can imagine them looking for replacement for for some of the older singles at East coast and country which will either see new stock or perhaps the cascade of the the 7900 or at least some of them to these operations and new stock purchased for city operations

Euro 7 plans should be revealed later in the year by the EU, with an aim to implement sometime in 2025. This is planned to be the last of the Euro standards as presumably something close to if not zero emissions will follow that which should be in the 2030’s.

The manufacturers probably won’t decide what to do until the plans are revealed, this will include Volvo. Worth noting the B9TL production ceased within 2 years of Euro 6 coming in and not before. I suspect this will not be as long for the B5TL and/or B5LH but probably still about a year. Basically I would be a little surprised if the B5TL and/or B5LH production ceased before 2026.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Euro 7 plans should be revealed later in the year by the EU, with an aim to implement sometime in 2025. This is planned to be the last of the Euro standards as presumably something close to if not zero emissions will follow that which should be in the 2030’s.

The manufacturers probably won’t decide what to do until the plans are revealed, this will include Volvo. Worth noting the B9TL production ceased within 2 years of Euro 6 coming in and not before. I suspect this will not be as long for the B5TL and/or B5LH but probably still about a year. Basically I would be a little surprised if the B5TL and/or B5LH production ceased before 2026.

Whether or not they're still actually offered i'm unsure but no B5LHs have been delivered to the UK for over two years and deliveries in the year or so prior to that had been fairly limited.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I think we'll see a few more deckers sometime late this year before the the Bee 5TL chassis disappears which a reasonably reliable source tells me will happen. I seem to recall them doing something similar when the end was near for the b9tl


I can imagine them looking for replacement for for some of the older singles at East coast and country which will either see new stock or perhaps the cascade of the the 7900 or at least some of them to these operations and new stock purchased for city operations

Lothian has a modern single decker fleet with the oldest ones being new in 2010, i could only see 171-175 (2010 batch) being replaced soon but I can see some of the 7900s might face early withdrawal.

 

[scosutsut]

Lothian has a modern single decker fleet with the oldest ones being new in 2010, i could only see 171-175 (2010 batch) being replaced soon but some of the 7900s might face early withdrawal.

*If* the 30 gets re-routed to avoid Newcraighall Village when the Queen Margaret University/ Edinburgh Innovation Park new A1 on/off junctions are added, I'd see that route switching to doubles, allowing a cascade of singles (providing more deckers come in.)

Not sure of the ETA for that new junction though as it's part of a huge complex build program.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

*If* the 30 gets re-routed to avoid Newcraighall Village when the Queen Margaret University/ Edinburgh Innovation Park new A1 on/off junctions are added, I'd see that route switching to doubles, allowing a cascade of singles (providing more deckers come in.)

Not sure of the ETA for that new junction though as it's part of a huge complex build program.

I know construction is at a very early stage, pretty much all on the Millerhill/Old Craighall side just now. Probably 2024 at the earliest I’d say.

The benefits of rerouting the 30 as you say would be the introduction of double deckers but would also make the route faster too.

I did wonder at the time when the Queen Margaret University moved to Musselburgh back in 2007/2008 (I think it was) why a proper slip road was never added. At least it’s finally happening now.

 

[Porty]

I know construction is at a very early stage, pretty much all on the Millerhill/Old Craighall side just now. Probably 2024 at the earliest I’d say.

The benefits of rerouting the 30 as you say would be the introduction of double deckers but would also make the route faster too.

I did wonder at the time when the Queen Margaret University moved to Musselburgh back in 2007/2008 (I think it was) why a proper slip road was never added. At least it’s finally happening now.

Lots of construction activity on the go for some months, and supposedly the junction to be open by December this year, according to a recent (20 April) news item posted on the East Lothian Council website. Also, some diversions off the A1 will take place in late May/June.

 

[Bus9120UK]

905-906 and 841-850 are 14 and 15 years old respectively.

Indeed. 841-850 will still be around for at least a few months if anything as 844 is now being painted

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I know construction is at a very early stage, pretty much all on the Millerhill/Old Craighall side just now. Probably 2024 at the earliest I’d say.

The benefits of rerouting the 30 as you say would be the introduction of double deckers but would also make the route faster too.

I did wonder at the time when the Queen Margaret University moved to Musselburgh back in 2007/2008 (I think it was) why a proper slip road was never added. At least it’s finally happening now.

Rerouting the 30 could also give ECB the opportunity to pick up the missing link at Newcraighall Village, I’m not sure how loadings are in that section but if the 106 is popular enough to warrant a service till 8pm then I’m sure it’s doable

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

1110 has tracked over the last few days at the Volvo dealership in Cardonald. Assuming it’s some kind of test runs so I don’t think it will be too far away from heading for a paint job (may have already been done at Volvo) or coming straight back to Edinburgh.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Wonder when the timetables for the service change will launch? I’m edging on curiosity here

 

[Darklord8899]

Wonder when the timetables for the service change will launch? I’m edging on curiosity here

ECB (minus X7) and LCB were available yesterday
Lothian today!