Thameslink - how naive can I be?

[Mikey C]

Probably because the thameslink core is literally never blocked on Saturdays.

The core isn't BUT a few weeks ago the Saturday Rainhams just ran Rainham to Dartford due to engineering works in St Albans I think, 30 miles away from Dartford.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The core isn't BUT a few weeks ago the Saturday Rainhams just ran Rainham to Dartford due to engineering works in St Albans I think, 30 miles away from Dartford.

Can't turn them back at London Bridge Platform's 4 and 5 then as no capacity.

They could use 2, but Thameslink decided not to. I'm not sure why to be honest.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Can't turn them back at London Bridge Platform's 4 and 5 then as no capacity.

They could use 2, but Thameslink decided not to. I'm not sure why to be honest.

Probably crew workings again. Or pathways - cannot sit forever in platform 2 waiting for the path back

 

[Mikey C]

Can't turn them back at London Bridge Platform's 4 and 5 then as no capacity.

They could use 2, but Thameslink decided not to. I'm not sure why to be honest.

How were they able to do this on Sundays, which is what I was replying to! Are Sundays that much quieter than Saturdays?

 

[NorthKent1989]

The core isn't BUT a few weeks ago the Saturday Rainhams just ran Rainham to Dartford due to engineering works in St Albans I think, 30 miles away from Dartford.

I’ve never understood why GTR simply runs this service as a Dartford-Rainham shuttle, could they not somehow divert this service via Bexleyheath or even run it as far as Charlton to serve Blackheath & Lewisham then to Elephant & Castle via Peckham Rye?

Whenever the Greenwich line has been closed this service gets diverted to Blackheath and Lewisham and then takes the slow/Cannon Street lines to London Bridge, aren’t drivers not cleared to run Thameslink trains from Lewisham to E&C then I take it?

 

[43066]

I’ve never understood why GTR simply runs this service as a Dartford-Rainham shuttle, could they not somehow divert this service via Bexleyheath or even run it as far as Charlton to serve Blackheath & Lewisham then to Elephant & Castle via Peckham Rye?

Often it’s likely because the Bexleyheath line (or the North Kent between Blackheath (where it converges) and Lewisham are closed. Or because the slow SEML lines between St Johns and LB are closed. GTR can and do divert via the Bexleyheath line, albeit GTR drivers don’t sign the Sidcup line.

Dartford generally offers an easy interchange and good onward connections via SE services.

Whenever the Greenwich line has been closed this service gets diverted to Blackheath and Lewisham and then takes the slow/Cannon Street lines to London Bridge, aren’t drivers not cleared to run Thameslink trains from Lewisham to E&C then I take it?

No, they don’t sign the route from Lewisham via Nunhead and Denmark Hill. What would be the point of them signing such a circuitous route when they can go via Lewisham - London Bridge? That’s following their usual route a lot more closely and quickly. On the occasions GTR can’t use either direct route to LB, people wanting London Bridge/Blackfriars will be much better off travelling on SE services to LB via another route, changing at Dartford for those coming from further south.

EDIT to add: if the route via the SEML slows is blocked, for example if Charing Cross or CST are closed, many SE services are often diverted to Victoria. This puts a lot of extra pressure on the Catford Loop line around Denmark Hill, another excellent reason not to send GTR Rainham services that way.

 

[ComUtoR]

I’ve never understood why GTR simply runs this service as a Dartford-Rainham shuttle

I've seen this happen on a few occasions.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

IN the case of works at say St Albans - a termination northbound at West Hampstead and holding over at the modest yard and sidings at Cricklewood would be easy enough and "operational risk" low.

I do wonder sometimes , if people really think about "closer to the customer" - and running as much as you can where appropriate.

(I recall arguing the case on the NLL for reversing on a weekend at Camden Road - only the busiest market in London nearby - and all achieved by a simple handsignalling operation over the crossover. We got no thanks - but no complaints either) - it would have been too easy to chuck the towel in and turn the service at Dalston. Try busing that lot - but in reality you would not.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do wonder sometimes , if people really think about "closer to the customer" - and running as much as you can where appropriate.

Oh they do - hence planned SLW Harpenden to Mill Hill B this Sunday.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Oh they do - hence planned SLW Harpenden to Mill Hill B this Sunday.

Oh they do - hence planned SLW Harpenden to Mill Hill B this Sunday.

Excellent plan - (but it failed due to isolation problems one gathers) - still they should be commended for thinking about it. (and planning it)

(there was some comment locally on social media about a 3 hour journey to London - for work - via Potters Bar (bus) and onward trains.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Probably crew workings again. Or pathways - cannot sit forever in platform 2 waiting for the path back

There is capacity to turn them back in Platform 2. That's what Network Rail train planning are there for, to validate diversions like that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Excellent plan - (but it failed due to isolation problems one gathers)

yes, it worked a few weeks ago. Seeing a train head north out of P1 St Albans was quite a surprise!

it was a planning issue that went wrong yesterday; the isol covered more than the possession.

 

[Mikey C]

IN the case of works at say St Albans - a termination northbound at West Hampstead and holding over at the modest yard and sidings at Cricklewood would be easy enough and "operational risk" low.

I do wonder sometimes , if people really think about "closer to the customer" - and running as much as you can where appropriate.

(I recall arguing the case on the NLL for reversing on a weekend at Camden Road - only the busiest market in London nearby - and all achieved by a simple handsignalling operation over the crossover. We got no thanks - but no complaints either) - it would have been too easy to chuck the towel in and turn the service at Dalston. Try busing that lot - but in reality you would not.

Exactly

On the 15th May the Rainham Thameslink service will run via Bexleyheath (when due to engineering works no trains will run via Greenwich AND Woolwich), but there's no flexibility in the system if the engineering works are north of the river to terminate somewhere else other than giving up at Dartford.

 

[43066]

Exactly

On the 15th May the Rainham Thameslink service will run via Bexleyheath (when due to engineering works no trains will run via Greenwich AND Woolwich), but there's no flexibility in the system if the engineering works are north of the river to terminate somewhere else other than giving up at Dartford.

On the day you mention, how can you be sure there wasn’t another issue south of the river which might have been the reason for terminating at Dartford, completely unconnected to the works at St Albans?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

yes, it worked a few weeks ago. Seeing a train head north out of P1 St Albans was quite a surprise!

it was a planning issue that went wrong yesterday; the isol covered more than the possession.

10/10 for proactive thinking ....one can but try.

 

[Edsmith]

It's not a solution looking for a problem though, as the current "solution" is cancelling the Rainham TL service completely, even if south of the river there are no issues at all.

Obviously I'm not suggesting such a solution when there is an emergency incident in the core, but rather for engineering works planned months in advance. Especially when the one bright spot for the railway is increased leisure travel at weekends.

Exactly that, it's ridiculous that a problem north of the river means Thameslink services get cancelled south of the river or reduced to Rainham to Dartford. Platform 2 at London Bridge would seem the obvious place to terminate them, platforms 1 and 3 are generally adequate for Cannon Street services especially at weekends.

 

[Falcon1200]

As a matter of interest, how do the Drivers' diagrams work on Thameslink ? Do trains have booked relief in the core, eg at Blackfriars or St Pancras, or do they work through to other locations ? The former arrangement would assist with turning trains short, however if just one Driver is out of place or missing the service would be wrecked. On the other hand, working through to 'country' locations means that turning short in the core immediately throws Drivers off diagram. Keeping track and control of Traincrew during disruption is absolutely crucial in preventing the service from deteriorating into even more of a shambles than it is already.

 

[Fincra5]

As a matter of interest, how do the Drivers' diagrams work on Thameslink ? Do trains have booked relief in the core, eg at Blackfriars or St Pancras, or do they work through to other locations ? The former arrangement would assist with turning trains short, however if just one Driver is out of place or missing the service would be wrecked. On the other hand, working through to 'country' locations means that turning short in the core immediately throws Drivers off diagram. Keeping track and control of Traincrew during disruption is absolutely crucial in preventing the service from deteriorating into even more of a shambles than it is already.

They try not to have changeover points in the 'Core' at all, Blackfriars Bay exempt, during thr week.

Finsbury Park, London Bridge, St Albans, Three Bridges (and Gatwick Terminators) seem to be the main changeover points. There are some smaller ones outside the core too.

 

[apinnard]

it’s a different issue. Last weeks was at St Pancras, today’s is at Farringdon. Rather unfortunate.

Still crawling through Farringdon northbound today.

 

[westcoaster]

No fix overnight.

 

[Mikey C]

On the day you mention, how can you be sure there wasn’t another issue south of the river which might have been the reason for terminating at Dartford, completely unconnected to the works at St Albans?

I don't know about every service, but the other services running through Woolwich were running normally (Cannon St via Greenwich, Charing X via Lewisham)

 

[ungreat]

No fix overnight.

Estimate is for the weekend for a fix...

 

[traingeek97]

As a matter of interest, how do the Drivers' diagrams work on Thameslink ? Do trains have booked relief in the core, eg at Blackfriars or St Pancras, or do they work through to other locations ? The former arrangement would assist with turning trains short, however if just one Driver is out of place or missing the service would be wrecked. On the other hand, working through to 'country' locations means that turning short in the core immediately throws Drivers off diagram. Keeping track and control of Traincrew during disruption is absolutely crucial in preventing the service from deteriorating into even more of a shambles than it is already.

A typical Gillingham duty involves picking up a trip at Gillingham, working it one stop to Rainham, up to Luton, PNB and then the return trip to Gillingham. There are quite a few crew changes at London Bridge where drivers just work Rainham to London Bridge/Luton to London Bridge.

 

[43066]

I don't know about every service, but the other services running through Woolwich were running normally (Cannon St via Greenwich, Charing X via Lewisham)

Fair enough. To be clear I’m not here to defend Thameslink at all(!). Just knowing how complicated the route structure and the who-signs-what matrix is in SE London and near Kent, there are often good reasons for things being done a certain way that might not be immediately obvious.

Twitter are mainly there to field basic questions on how to get from A to B and are unlikely to get into detailed explanations along the lines of “Engineering works at A means route B is too busy to receive TOC C’s diverted trains, so they’re being turned short at D.”

Next time it happens it might be worth specifically asking the question on here!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Apr 2022 ==

Do trains have booked relief in the core, eg at Blackfriars or St Pancras, or do they work through to other locations ? The former arrangement would assist with turning trains short, however if just one Driver is out of place or missing the service would be wrecked.

This is exactly why Blackfriars depot was closed and crew changes no longer take place in the core.

 

[jon0844]

Estimate is for the weekend for a fix...

Yes, that's what the posters at St Pancras said.

It was interesting to see our train run at 5mph from City Thameslink. We skipped Farringdon which helped make up a small bit of time, but everything was running about 10-15 minutes late.

As I was only going to St Pancras, it didn't really bother me as it didn't matter what train was on the platform.

 

[Saint66]

Accord to NR on Twitter, the fix is now planned for Wednesday night if all goes to plan.

 

[Falcon1200]

They try not to have changeover points in the 'Core' at all, Blackfriars Bay exempt, during thr week.

A typical Gillingham duty involves picking up a trip at Gillingham, working it one stop to Rainham, up to Luton, PNB and then the return trip to Gillingham.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Horizon22]

Hopefully not something systemic suddenly coming out of the woodwork here, is there? Just remembering a few years back when a change to the Pendolino pantograph type was suddenly causing wire breakages all over the WCML. Seems strange to get two rail breaks so close together on a relatively new section of infrastructure…

You’d hope not - but for me disruption seems to never rain but pours. Had 3 fatalities (all at or very close to the same place) in 2 weeks whilst on shift. Probably anecdotal but bizarrely things like this seem to happen close together and are complete coincidence!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Apr 2022 ==

How were they able to do this on Sundays, which is what I was replying to! Are Sundays that much quieter than Saturdays?

Simply put yes. Without engineering works for SE, it’s basically a Monday-Friday service without peaks.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

How were they able to do this on Sundays, which is what I was replying to! Are Sundays that much quieter than Saturdays?

Sorry, only just saw this but yes they are. Saturdays in the current timetable are the busiest day of the week in terms of trains on the South East route.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hopefully not something systemic suddenly coming out of the woodwork here, is there? Just remembering a few years back when a change to the Pendolino pantograph type was suddenly causing wire breakages all over the WCML. Seems strange to get two rail breaks so close together on a relatively new section of infrastructure…

it is strange, but as Goldfinger said, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence…

the two ‘breaks’ are quite different in their cause.