Northern Complimentary Ticket Dispute

[Djgr]

Doesn't the 'contra proferentem' legal doctrine in contract law apply here?

This essentially states that any clause considered to be ambiguous should be interpreted against the interests of the party that created, introduced, or requested that such a clause be included.

Just issuing them as unlimited travel day tickets (one for a day return, two for a period return) would avoid all this nonsense. I think SercoNed did?

Do they not still do this for serious delays?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Back of these Northern complimentary tickets states (inter alia)...





Does seem to be a moot point as to whether (for a return ticket) the return date has to be completed already before using the ticket for the outward journey.

For what it is worth, is there not also an accompanying letter from Northern that goes with the ticket? Certainly based on my speed reading of this (before binning it) I took it to tell me that the return date was required to be filled in at the same time as the outward?

 

[northwichcat]

If it is not stated in their T&Cs then that comment above is utter rubbish (no disrespect to yourself obviously)

Yep. Say you had the following flights booked from Manchester Airport:

12:00 1st May Manchester to Porto
Porto to Manchester arriving 02:00 7th May

06:00 5th Oct Manchester to Tenerife
Tenerife to Manchester arriving 18:00 19th Oct

You might need a taxi to get home after getting back from Porto and to get to the airport in time to check-in prior to going to Tenerife. But if you want to use the train to get to the airport on 1st May and back on 19th Oct, I don't see why you can't use both parts of a complimentary ticket for that purpose. It doesn't have a 1 day/month expiry like a standard return ticket might have. Even with a standard ticket you can choose the date of return after buying the ticket, the date printed on the ticket is the last day you can travel on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Do they not still do this for serious delays?

While the tickets have an option for 'all day', the usual practice is to issue 2 x complimentary tickets for delays of over 2 hours, not a ticket for unlimited all day travel.

If you're out hiking and the walk start point is on one line, while the end point is on another line then a complimentary return isn't much use.

 

[Djgr]

Yep. Say you had the following flights booked from Manchester Airport:

12:00 1st May Manchester to Porto
Porto to Manchester arriving 02:00 7th May

06:00 5th Oct Manchester to Tenerife
Tenerife to Manchester arriving 18:00 19th Oct

You might need a taxi to get home after getting back from Porto and to get to the airport in time to check-in prior to going to Tenerife. But if you want to use the train to get to the airport on 1st May and back on 19th Oct, I don't see why you can't use both parts of a complimentary ticket for that purpose. It doesn't have a 1 day/month expiry like a standard return ticket might have. Even with a standard ticket you can choose the date of return after buying the ticket, the date printed on the ticket is the last day you can travel on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==



While the tickets have an option for 'all day', the usual practice is to issue 2 x complimentary tickets for delays of over 2 hours, not a ticket for unlimited all day travel.

If you're out hiking and the walk start point is on one line, while the end point is on another line then a complimentary return isn't much use.

Unless you are clever with your choice of destination and alight/return short.

 

[northwichcat]

Unless you are clever with your choice of destination and alight/return short.

Not always possible. A common one is for Manchester area hiking groups is to get the train to a Hope Valley line station and to return from a Buxton or Glossop line station. If you're planning your own walk it'll be a bit easier.

 

[zero]

As people in that situation are normally due a refund, would you not have been due the equivalent: endorsement of the original ticket making it valid for outward travel another day (which might be a bit complicated to write on the ticket, so perhaps another written authorisation) or a replacement ticket?

Yes, I agree, although I was a bit confused and actually submitted a delay repay form which I should not have, but I did write an explanation that I wasn't delayed and asked for a new ticket so I could attempt the journey again. Obviously, the image of my ticket showed the inbound undated. In the end it wasn't possible to get from my origin to my destination that day, so the theoretical "delay" if I had taken the next possible service would be 24 hours.

The response demonstrated that the person did read my explanation, and they sent me a new free single to repeat the outbound, though they didn't explicitly say the original inbound was still free to use but it was implied.

 

[island]

Doesn't the 'contra proferentem' legal doctrine in contract law apply here?

I question whether a free ticket can constitute a contract, as no consideration has been given for it by the passenger.

 

[northwichcat]

I question whether a free ticket can constitute a contract, as no consideration has been given for it by the passenger.

There is a requirement for Delay Repay under the terms of the original ticket sale, with Northern allowing the passenger to choose complimentary ticket(s) over cash compensation.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

For what it is worth, is there not also an accompanying letter from Northern that goes with the ticket? Certainly based on my speed reading of this (before binning it) I took it to tell me that the return date was required to be filled in at the same time as the outward?

Good point. The covering letter that I received with a Return Northern travel voucher stated (inter alia) the following...

(I've bolded what appears to be a key condition).

Please note a complimentary voucher is not valid on any other train operator. Your voucher needs to be filled in prior to boarding in pen to validate this voucher, failure to do so may result in a valid ticket being required to be purchased under the normal terms and conditions for the journey taken. Where applicable, the return journey details should also be completed, prior to commencing the outward journey.

 

[nedchester]

Good point. The covering letter that I received with a Return Northern travel voucher stated (inter alia) the following...

(I've bolded what appears to be a key condition).

“Details”? You mean from and to not necessarily the date then.

 

[Jason12]

There is no separate "from" and "to" for the return portion, so the only "details" it is possible to complete are those of the return date.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

“Details”? You mean from and to not necessarily the date then.

Here's what they tend to look like...
(Pic of Northern Complimentary Travel Pass)

As @Jason12 points out, the only "details" specific to a return journey would be the return date. You'd need everything else completing just for the outward journey.

 

[Southern Beau]

Good point. The covering letter that I received with a Return Northern travel voucher stated (inter alia) the following... (I've bolded what appears to be a key condition).

Is the accompanying letter which you received relatively recent?

I’ve received a ticket the in last month and it did not contain the bolded sentence

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is the accompanying letter which you received relatively recent?

I’ve received a ticket the in last month and it did not contain the bolded sentence

No, it's from 2019. Not had opportunity to use the voucher yet. Interesting if no longer being mentioned.

 

[Djgr]

No, it's from 2019. Not had opportunity to use the voucher yet. Interesting if no longer being mentioned.

I have had the letter in 2022.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have had the letter in 2022.

What voucher completion instructions (if any) does the letter, you've got, state?

 

[SuspectUsual]

The reply from Northern is baffling, especially this bit:

When a Complimentary Return Travel Voucher is used for travel then a Return date must be entered on the ticket. If not then it means the ticket is only valid for the Outbound section of the journey

This is basically what the OP did, and as he was on the outbound leg when he encountered the conductor and had all this grief by Northern’s own admission his ticket was still valid for the journey he was making.

 

[northwichcat]

The reply from Northern is baffling, especially this bit:

When a Complimentary Return Travel Voucher is used for travel then a Return date must be entered on the ticket. If not then it means the ticket is only valid for the Outbound section of the journey

This is basically what the OP did, and as he was on the outbound leg when he encountered the conductor and had all this grief by Northern’s own admission his ticket was still valid for the journey he was making.

If you have a return ticket surely there's no obligation for you to actually make a return journey.

 

[Djgr]

I have had the letter in 2022.

I don't still have it, but by memory the same as quoted above.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If you have a return ticket surely there's no obligation for you to actually make a return journey.

Indeed. But there seems (as discussed upthread) to be the obligation to complete the return journey (date) details on the complimentary voucher before making the outward journey. If you're not intending making the return journey, it doesn't then matter what date you enter.

 

[Watershed]

But there still seems to be the obligation to complete the return journey (date) details on the voucher before making the outward journey.

This is not substantiated by the terms printed on the reverse of the ticket. Nor is this something which seems to be communicated to recipients of the tickets anymore.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This is not substantiated by the terms printed on the reverse of the ticket. Nor is this something which seems to be communicated to recipients of the tickets anymore.

No, but it was so communicated in the covering letter that I received in 2019.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is not substantiated by the terms printed on the reverse of the ticket.

I'm not sure that this is an argument with much mileage. The full NRCoT aren't on the back of a credit card sized ticket - there's a note saying 'issued subject to...'. If Northern complimentary tickets somehow refer back to the letter, then I would expect that to incorporate any terms notified in the letter.

Nor is this something which seems to be communicated to recipients of the tickets anymore.

But there may be some mileage in this point.

To give a personal view, it seems to me unlikely that the complimentary tickets are intended to have validity beyond the usual for a GB railway ticket. And it's usual for a journey out to be followed by a journey back within a few days or weeks. So any attempt to use the return leg of a complimentary ticket some months or years later would - to me at least - surely lead to a difficult conversation with a ticket inspector, even if the passenger eventually got their way.

But allowing for a return within (say) a month is more challenging: a (paid-for) anytime return doesn't require the passenger to nominate their return date before they set out on the outward leg, so maybe that is a useful parallel for not return-dating a complimentary ticket before initially setting off.

 

[matthewluck]

The letter I received stated nothing about writing in the return date. I don't have the letter any more.

 

[HBP]

No, but it was so communicated in the covering letter that I received in 2019.

and verbatim to the last letter and free ticket I received in Sept 2021.

 

[yorkie]

But there may be some mileage in this point.

To give a personal view, it seems to me unlikely that the complimentary tickets are intended to have validity beyond the usual for a GB railway ticket. And it's usual for a journey out to be followed by a journey back within a few days or weeks. So any attempt to use the return leg of a complimentary ticket some months or years later would - to me at least - surely lead to a difficult conversation with a ticket inspector, even if the passenger eventually got their way.

But allowing for a return within (say) a month is more challenging: a (paid-for) anytime return doesn't require the passenger to nominate their return date before they set out on the outward leg, so maybe that is a useful parallel for not return-dating a complimentary ticket before initially setting off.

There is nothing to say the return date should be within a month.

I don't think the incidental fact that some tickets are valid for a calendar month should be used to infer the validity of this ticket.

Northern need to apologise to the customer and issue some words of advice to the staff member who interacted with the customer.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure that this is an argument with much mileage. The full NRCoT aren't on the back of a credit card sized ticket - there's a note saying 'issued subject to...'. If Northern complimentary tickets somehow refer back to the letter, then I

No they're not. But neither the NRCoT nor the letter with which these tickets are now issued state any such restriction. In other words, even if such a restriction existed (which is clearly not, or at least no longer, the case), it would have to be communicated to the passenger in some way for it to take effect.

To give a personal view, it seems to me unlikely that the complimentary tickets are intended to have validity beyond the usual for a GB railway ticket. And it's usual for a journey out to be followed by a journey back within a few days or weeks. So any attempt to use the return leg of a complimentary ticket some months or years later would - to me at least - surely lead to a difficult conversation with a ticket inspector, even if the passenger eventually got their way.

Perhaps. But Northern were perfectly at liberty to add such a restriction. They simply chose not to do so.

But allowing for a return within (say) a month is more challenging: a (paid-for) anytime return doesn't require the passenger to nominate their return date before they set out on the outward leg, so maybe that is a useful parallel for not return-dating a complimentary ticket before initially setting off

Given that there isn't even a limit on when the ticket must by used by (i.e. it could be held for several years before being dated), I don't see that there is much point in comparing it to a regular ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

To give a personal view, it seems to me unlikely that the complimentary tickets are intended to have validity beyond the usual for a GB railway ticket.

They aren't a normal rail ticket though, they are more restrictive in some ways and less restrictive in others. For example, if I ask for a Northern only Knutsford to Liverpool ticket I would be told one doesn't exist but that doesn't stop me using a Northern complimentary ticket to get between Knutsford and Liverpool on only Northern services. On the other hand with a Northern complimentary ticket I can change my mind on the date and destination between when it's issued and when I use it.

 

[matthewluck]

Had a reply and have responded asking where this condition is available to read.

I get the impression that like the Conductor, they are making things up as they go along.

If the return date needs to be written down and it has to be within 28 days, I would expect them to at least tell passengers that when they are sent the tickets and for it to be stated in the terms on the reverse of the ticket.

Thank you for your e-mail.

When the voucher is used for an outbound journey then a return date does need to be entered. The return date either needs to be the same date or within 28 days.

I apologise if this not the response you expected, however, I hope it provides the clarification you require.

 

[Watershed]

Had a reply and have responded asking where this condition is available to read.

I get the impression that like the Conductor, they are making things up as they go along.

If the return date needs to be written down and it has to be within 28 days, I would expect them to at least tell passengers that when they are sent the tickets and for it to be stated in the terms on the reverse of the ticket.

Indeed. Where have they got 28 days from? This is utterly farcical.

It might be worthwhile asking them to escalate it to someone who actually has a clue their manager.

 

[gray1404]

On the other hand this might be an example of quit while you are ahead. We do not want Northern suddenly introducing such conditions printed on the reverse of the next batch of vouchers.