Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[Annetts key]

Given that the vast majority of passengers don’t really care what the brand is, do GBR really need a brand?

The main purpose of a brand is to encourage customers to spend their money on a product from the same manufacturer or service provider. Preferably by only using that same brand.

That seems rather redundant if there will only one national railway service (yes, I know that there will still be open access and regional/country operators).

Obviously the colour of the paint used on trains has to be specified. The typeface to be used on signs has already been decided.

So if all GBR trains are painted the same colour, do we really need anything more than “GBR” being put on the trains using the already agreed typeface?

Would keeping it plain and simple be the cheapest method? Would that be the most prudent given the industry’s current financial situation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wanted to go for something modern yet flexible. I could see those different types of logos being used across scenarios. I might take an example railway station (I'm thinking Rugby) and design signage made for that specific station, to see how things could look practically...

Modern? It is straight out of 1975.

They need to bin the lot and get Best Impressions in. If you give him a quality brief you won't just get the samey bus stuff, e.g. the excellent Stagecoach Beachball scheme was his doing, including the whole SWT package.

@Annetts key It needs to look attractive to compete with the car.

 

[Annetts key]

@Annetts key It needs to look attractive to compete with the car.

Not convinced. How many people list how attractive a train is when you ask them why they decided to go by car or train? I suspect not many.

Pick a nice colour yes. But I don’t see the need for multiple different colours or fancy transfers.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not convinced. How many people list how attractive a train is when you ask them why they decided to go by car or train? I suspect not many.

Pick a nice colour yes. But I don’t see the need for multiple different colours or fancy transfers.

In which case, why do car manufacturers put effort (and substantial amounts of money!) into flashy advertising campaigns, the appearance of the showrooms (and their digital counterpart, the website), and the styling of their vehicles?

 

[Annetts key]

In which case, why do car manufacturers put effort (and substantial amounts of money!) into flashy advertising campaigns, the appearance of the showrooms (and their digital counterpart, the website), and the styling of their vehicles?

Because many individuals buy or lease their own car/bike whatever. You could also ask the other related questions:

• Why do so many seemingly ugly cars sell?
• Why are so many cars driven around dirty with the user making no attempt to keep them clean?
• Why do most people go for a car that is mostly all one single colour?

If you compare trains to commercial vans (on the roads), yes there are some companies that have flash paint jobs or fancy transfers. But there are also a good many who keep it simple to keep costs low. Many even only use white painted vans (the standard factory colour for medium and large vans as I understand it).

Passengers get very little if any choice on the livery or branding of trains. And in general of anything they don’t buy/own/lease. If you have no say, it often makes little difference to a passenger.

I actually think a plain simple good colour will look good on most current passenger stock. Heck some of the current liveries are not far off this now.

Some of the previous complex multicoloured designs have looked awful in my opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say GWR (single colour) is a far better branding package than Avanti (3 colours). But the point is that effort has gone into developing a brand and what it stands for, it isn't just harking back to the awful 1970s, a time people seem to be seeing with a large pair of rose tinted spectacles.

 

[HSTEd]

In which case, why do car manufacturers put effort (and substantial amounts of money!) into flashy advertising campaigns, the appearance of the showrooms (and their digital counterpart, the website), and the styling of their vehicles?

Because they are competing against numerous products that are ultimately very similar or identical in most operational senses.

The railway is competing against only other modes of transport - it doesn't have to use superficial styling etc because its differentiation can be far more fundamental.

 

[cr767055]

Modern? It is straight out of 1975.

I'm inclined to disagree. This is "straight out of 1975":

 

[HarryL]

I said this on another thread, but this is definitely a more appropriate one. I'm working on building a GBR brand from the ground up for the next few days (my calendar is completely empty), starting with a logo.

Here's what I came up with. As you can see - many different variations, that would eventually be used for different scenarios (e.g. the sides of vehicles, posters, websites, app icons etc.) - but the two at the top are the primary ones. Thoughts?

View attachment 112438

This design is a lot better than the ones the governments has trademarked. The name is still awful though and far too long, but that's not your fault.

 

[cr767055]

The name is still awful though and far too long

Agreed - the name is terrible.

 

[MattRat]

I would say GWR (single colour) is a far better branding package than Avanti (3 colours). But the point is that effort has gone into developing a brand and what it stands for, it isn't just harking back to the awful 1970s, a time people seem to be seeing with a large pair of rose tinted spectacles.

I'd rather have BR blue and yellow over whatever the Government is currently cooking up. My money is on a Union Jack paint scheme on all trains, because what better way to ruin our flag.....

 

[zwk500]

I'm inclined to disagree. This is "straight out of 1975":

I'm inclined to disagree there. That's what happens when small-minded people look back on a classic that was before their time with a warped sense of populism.

Your earlier suggestion will work very well for station nameboards and signage as well as a NRE-style 'train times' app. However I think something else will be used for advertising and differentiation between services.

 

[irish_rail]

Modern? It is straight out of 1975.

They need to bin the lot and get Best Impressions in. If you give him a quality brief you won't just get the samey bus stuff, e.g. the excellent Stagecoach Beachball scheme was his doing, including the whole SWT package.

@Annetts key It needs to look attractive to compete with the car.

Aren't best impressions the ones that did the 2015 Virgin East Coast HST? One of the worst liveries they ever carried, never seen a HST look so poor.

 

[cr767055]

I'm inclined to disagree there. That's what happens when small-minded people look back on a classic that was before their time with a warped sense of populism.

Your earlier suggestion will work very well for station nameboards and signage as well as a NRE-style 'train times' app. However I think something else will be used for advertising and differentiation between services.

It's a given that there will be brands underneath GBR - if there weren't, it would make travelling pretty complicated.

In terms of signage, here's what I was working on this morning:



I don't think there would ever be multiple logos for Great British Railways as you've alluded to - it would make it complicated for the end passenger.

 

[zwk500]

It's a given that there will be brands underneath GBR - if there weren't, it would make travelling pretty complicated.

In terms of signage, here's what I was working on this morning:

The signs look good, if a bit bland and functional.

I don't think there would ever be multiple logos for Great British Railways as you've alluded to - it would make it complicated for the end passenger.

British rail was perfectly happy to have different logos for Intercity, NSE, Regional Railways etc... In many ways having a 'Railway System' logo (the double arrow) for stations/journey planners but a different logo so people know the train is a 'big' intercity train or a 'small' stopping train is very helpful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm inclined to disagree. This is "straight out of 1975":

View attachment 112442

It all is. Red on white with a basic sans serif font is. Modern design can do so much better - even SBB has put some effort in.

It is just rubbish. Bare minimum, low effort. Like the Thameslink 700 "can't be bothered" livery.

Compared to the superb branding packages of TfW and ScotRail, it does not say "come use the railway, it's good", it says "we have spent the bare minimum, stick to your car".

Maybe the truth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==

The signs look good, if a bit bland and functional.

Bland, cheap, unimaginative. Bare minimum. And the more I see RA2 and its symbols, the more clumsy it looks.

British rail was perfectly happy to have different logos for Intercity, NSE, Regional Railways etc... In many ways having a 'Railway System' logo (the double arrow) for stations/journey planners but a different logo so people know the train is a 'big' intercity train or a 'small' stopping train is very helpful.

At the moment, the TOC mostly differentiates this. Once we lose TOC branding I certainly think service categories need to return, if only on the Dutch basis of them only describing service patterns rather than anything else.

 

[zwk500]

Bland, cheap, unimaginative. Bare minimum. And the more I see RA2 and its symbols, the more clumsy it looks.

For Station signage that is supposed to be functional and informative above all else, I don't see too much wrong with this. Of course it's possible to do better, but I'd argue there are bigger priorities as long as the signage is fit for purpose.

At the moment, the TOC mostly differentiates this. Once we lose TOC branding I certainly think service categories need to return, if only on the Dutch basis of them only describing service patterns rather than anything else.

Agree, having at least 'intercity', 'regional' and 'metro' would be good. Something will need to be kept open for Open Access Operators to be distinguished.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For Station signage that is supposed to be functional and informative above all else, I don't see too much wrong with this. Of course it's possible to do better, but I'd argue there are bigger priorities as long as the signage is fit for purpose.

In the days of signs being hand painted/stencilled on enamel I would agree, but it is so much easier to make stuff look good these days that there is really no excuse for this sort of thing.

I am confident I could design a better package in a few hours, and I am not a design professional.

Agree, having at least 'intercity', 'regional' and 'metro' would be good. Something will need to be kept open for Open Access Operators to be distinguished.

True. I think in Germany it is done by using the "TOC" name in place of IC etc.

 

[zwk500]

In the days of signs being hand painted/stencilled on enamel I would agree, but it is so much easier to make stuff look good these days that there is really no excuse for this sort of thing.

I am confident I could design a better package in a few hours, and I am not a design professional.

Give the kid a break - I'm only replying to his suggestions. I know GBR have proposed similar things and they have less excuses but things like branding are still very much in the 'possibilities' stage as there's a lot of legal process to get through before we know for certain how GBR will operate.

True. I think in Germany it is done by using the "TOC" name in place of IC etc.

This would make the most sense, and France do something similar in having Eurostar/Thalys/TGV/OuiGo/TER on their boards. It will be interesting to see if GBR decide to have just IC, use the West Coast/Great Western etc or if the private operators of the tendered packages will be allowed to manage the branding.

 

[43301]

British rail was perfectly happy to have different logos for Intercity, NSE, Regional Railways etc... In many ways having a 'Railway System' logo (the double arrow) for stations/journey planners but a different logo so people know the train is a 'big' intercity train or a 'small' stopping train is very helpful.

The split is far less clear now in much of the country, and identical trains are used for what long-distance and regional services in some cases (i.e. the assorted 80x units, which are largely identical apart from the colour scheme). Nor is it any indication of the quality of the trains - pleny of cases currently where the regional trains are better than long-distance ones at (e.g. all of the TPE fleets are better to travel in and in considerably better condition than the XC Voyagers).

A clear advantage of one brand is that trains can be moved around as and when necessary without the constant application of vinyls and paint which happens with the current system, and the same trains can be used for different types of service without causing confusion (e.g. a regional stopping service one day and a limitied-stop long distance service the next)

 

[YorksLad12]

It's a given that there will be brands underneath GBR - if there weren't, it would make travelling pretty complicated.

In terms of signage, here's what I was working on this morning:

View attachment 112444

I don't think there would ever be multiple logos for Great British Railways as you've alluded to - it would make it complicated for the end passenger.

It's good work (and the previous set). I don't think the red understripe would appear though, and there will still be calls from TfGM, WYCA TfWM, TfW, etc. for some form of co-branding. The old Northern signs worked well, but only Metro/WYCA really got behind the co-branding opportunities, that I saw.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's good work (and the previous set). I don't think the red understripe would appear though, and there will still be calls from TfGM, WYCA TfWM, TfW, etc. for some form of co-branding. The old Northern signs worked well, but only Metro/WYCA really got behind the co-branding opportunities, that I saw.

A good livery design would have a recognisable shape and form, so it can be rolled out in different colours for partnership liveries like those. Regional Railways did this very well, as did Stagecoach Beachball.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==

It's a given that there will be brands underneath GBR - if there weren't, it would make travelling pretty complicated.

In terms of signage, here's what I was working on this morning:

View attachment 112444

I don't think there would ever be multiple logos for Great British Railways as you've alluded to - it would make it complicated for the end passenger.

The red stripe does work, very similar to what the Welsh are doing. The double arrow is still overused, though. It is not necessary to have it on platform signs as if you don't know you are on the railway when you see them there probably isn't much hope for you. One thing that might work, though, would be to drop the full text from the red band and just have a subtle double arrow on the right hand side in that.

 

[cr767055]

if a bit bland and functional

I suppose they are quite bland. Maybe a "way out" arrow similar to Thameslink's station signage could make it more exciting, while also adding a bit more functionality?

British rail was perfectly happy to have different logos for Intercity, NSE, Regional Railways etc... In many ways having a 'Railway System' logo (the double arrow) for stations/journey planners but a different logo so people know the train is a 'big' intercity train or a 'small' stopping train is very helpful.

Sorry - I didn't explain very well. Regional/departmental-style logos make complete sense and I expect will happen. But for the company GBR itself, there will be one logo. Maybe I misunderstood.

even SBB has put some effort in

Do you mean this sort of thing? I think that's much, much blander.

I am confident I could design a better package in a few hours, and I am not a design professional.

Go for it. I'd be interested to see your sort of preference.

I don't think the red understripe would appear though, and there will still be calls from TfGM, WYCA TfWM, TfW, etc. for some form of co-branding. The old Northern signs worked well, but only Metro/WYCA really got behind the co-branding opportunities, that I saw.

There's the potential for the stripe to be changed depending on region/operator/transport authority, I suppose.

The red stripe does work, very similar to what the Welsh are doing. The double arrow is still overused, though. It is not necessary to have it on platform signs as if you don't know you are on the railway when you see them there probably isn't much hope for you. One thing that might work, though, would be to drop the full text from the red band and just have a subtle double arrow on the right hand side in that.

I'm not aware - what are TfW doing? Every TfW station I've been to are still ATW-branded (in fact, Hereford yesterday). In terms of changing the background colour - I was going to go with a navy blue, but then it wouldn't integrate with any part of the design system I had in my head, so I opted not to.

I tried going with the National Rail icon in the right hand side, but it was too small and nobody would notice it. Instead, I just added an icon next to the full text and removed it from the main station name.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In the days of signs being hand painted/stencilled on enamel I would agree, but it is so much easier to make stuff look good these days that there is really no excuse for this sort of thing.

I am confident I could design a better package in a few hours, and I am not a design professional.

I would honestly love to see a design from the same branding guru that created "travel with a bit of Italian flair"

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I tried going with the National Rail icon in the right hand side, but it was too small and nobody would notice it. Instead, I just added an icon next to the full text and removed it from the main station name.

View attachment 112480

I really, really like that. I also think a national red colour scheme would look incredibly smart and consistent, with me preferring this to different colour stripes by region. I cannot tell you how much smarter GBR would look with a red colour scheme in comparison to a blue one. Blue is such a drab and boring colour, as proven by the depressing interior of TPE's Nova 1s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose they are quite bland. Maybe a "way out" arrow similar to Thameslink's station signage could make it more exciting, while also adding a bit more functionality?



Sorry - I didn't explain very well. Regional/departmental-style logos make complete sense and I expect will happen. But for the company GBR itself, there will be one logo. Maybe I misunderstood.



Do you mean this sort of thing? I think that's much, much blander.

View attachment 112479

To be fair I meant the whole package including the liveries. But I don't see that as blander than what is being installed. Your red stripe version is probably better, though.

I'm not aware - what are TfW doing? Every TfW station I've been to are still ATW-branded (in fact, Hereford yesterday). In terms of changing the background colour - I was going to go with a navy blue, but then it wouldn't integrate with any part of the design system I had in my head, so I opted not to.

TfW are doing something similar to what you are - black on white with red stripe.

I tried going with the National Rail icon in the right hand side, but it was too small and nobody would notice it.

Subtle is good, people don't need to notice it as it doesn't tell them anything they don't already know. The purpose is to make it look less cheap and drab. I would be happy with unbranded red but a subtle double arrow adds something.

Instead, I just added an icon next to the full text and removed it from the main station name.

View attachment 112480

Better I suppose.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I said this on another thread, but this is definitely a more appropriate one. I'm working on building a GBR brand from the ground up for the next few days (my calendar is completely empty), starting with a logo.

Here's what I came up with. As you can see - many different variations, that would eventually be used for different scenarios (e.g. the sides of vehicles, posters, websites, app icons etc.) - but the two at the top are the primary ones. Thoughts?

View attachment 112438

Maybe replace all the black with blue so that the colours of the flag (red, white and blue) are all used without ruining the double arrow by trying to cram all three colours into it?

Aren't best impressions the ones that did the 2015 Virgin East Coast HST? One of the worst liveries they ever carried, never seen a HST look so poor.

Not sure who designed it, but I actually think the coaches looked fairly good (though perhaps more Stagecoach than Virgin) except for the buffet and all the joins visible in the vinyls. The standard version of the Virgin East Coast livery on powercars/locos/DVTs was/is pretty terrible though.

In terms of signage, here's what I was working on this morning:

View attachment 112444

I like the six 'standard'/'basic' signs there but think it might look even better if the double arrow was the only thing that was red and everything else that is red or black was a navy blue. I also don't like the extra-high versions (eg. the one with the West Midlands Metro stripe added).

Compared to the superb branding packages of TfW and ScotRail, it does not say "come use the railway, it's good", it says "we have spent the bare minimum, stick to your car".

Maybe the truth.

"we have spent the bare minimum, stick to your car" certainly seems to apply to the 195s and 197s (perhaps not the 196s), but I wouldn't say TfW's branding package is that great. The rolling stock (197s especially, since they don't have the black window band seen on the Sprinters and 175s) just screams London Underground to me and I absolutely don't like the thin red line along the top of the station signage, it somehow looks top heavy that way. The line needs to go along the bottom, as Hb06_ has done it, but a thin line as used by TfW might work.

I tried going with the National Rail icon in the right hand side, but it was too small and nobody would notice it. Instead, I just added an icon next to the full text and removed it from the main station name.

View attachment 112480

I quite like that version; I think I might like it even more if the black and the red were blue instead though. A bit like this but without the fuzzy outline on the text and double arrow (caused by MS Paint's paint bucket tool):

 

[Bletchleyite]

The blue does look nicer, yes.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Anyone got a suggestion for the government's latest bright idea today along the same lines, 'Great British Nuclear'?

I really do despair, it's so cringewothy it makes me want to be sick.

 

[krus_aragon]

Anyone got a suggestion for the government's latest bright idea today along the same lines, 'Great British Nuclear'?

I really do despair, it's so cringewothy it makes me want to be sick.

You should go the whole hog: Great British Nuclear Fuels Limited