• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Swanage to Wareham postponed again

Status
Not open for further replies.

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
Do you have any actual figures? My info is obviously out of date.
Sorry no actual figures but I think it was said at one of the open forums that more tickets were sold at Swanage BO than at Norden BO though it was quite close.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Norden park and ride was constructed specifically to reduce pressure on Corfe, which has limited parking facilities.
The building of Norden Station was a condition of SR being given consent to operate the section between Harmans Cross Corfe Castle and Norden.

It is no longer referred to as Norden Park and Ride in part because DC wish to promote it as more than a car park and also because of issues with customer expectations ie pay for parking get a free ride or pay for the ride get free parking. Sadly you have to pay for both.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Sean Emmett

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2015
Messages
522
Is there any scope for a commuter/regular DMU/battery service to/from Bournemouth being allowed to run up to say 40 mph max, rather than the usual 25 mph max on the branch? I thought that was being discussed for West Somerset in the past?

Appreciate that would likely come at a cost.

Only way I can see it happening would be if local Councils were interested in supporting a regular service, and SWR were able to resource it. If the Greenford battery trial works, that could provide a solution for the rolling stock. Then agree how it would fit in with the heritage operation.

Would love to see it happen, but in a changed world with severe financial pressures it's highly unlikely.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
Is there any scope for a commuter/regular DMU/battery service to/from Bournemouth being allowed to run up to say 40 mph max, rather than the usual 25 mph max on the branch? I thought that was being discussed for West Somerset in the past?

Appreciate that would likely come at a cost.

Only way I can see it happening would be if local Councils were interested in supporting a regular service, and SWR were able to resource it. If the Greenford battery trial works, that could provide a solution for the rolling stock. Then agree how it would fit in with the heritage operation.

Would love to see it happen, but in a changed world with severe financial pressures it's highly unlikely.

It may be possible but the demand isnt there.

The convenience of the car, door to door, times to suit yourself and overall journey time trumps the train.

If you prefer public transport / it meets your needs the Purbeck Breezer bus is available.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,364
Location
Yorks
It may be possible but the demand isnt there.

The convenience of the car, door to door, times to suit yourself and overall journey time trumps the train.

If you prefer public transport / it meets your needs the Purbeck Breezer bus is available.

How do you know that the demand not being there ? Your assertion seems to be based on assumptions of universal car ownership/willingness to undertake long bus journeys.
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
717
A lot of posters claim the demand isn't there for any new service or reopening, it doesn't really matter which one. As it is the future we are talking about, this can't possibly be known. Even computer modelling is just guesswork dressed up as fact. In truth it is unknowable either way, for or against but, the only way to find out is to do it. So far, some lines that have opened have done well, others not so much. None of that was knowable in advance. Only Dr Who would know but, he hasn't got the time to see us.
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,400
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
It may be possible but the demand isnt there.

The convenience of the car, door to door, times to suit yourself and overall journey time trumps the train.

If you prefer public transport / it meets your needs the Purbeck Breezer bus is available.
My cousin lives in Swanage and uses the bus, his view is the bus is fine in Winter but in the Summer (which is of course is when the Heritage Railway is at maximum usage) the service deteriorates due to the sheer amount of traffic in the area. He travels up to London a couple of times a month, and would welcome a through connection from Swanage station, he is only 5 mins walk from the station, but he is one and even he admits that there isn't enough potential travellers to make it viable.

The problem is the commuter service have a different set of requirements to Heritage services and currently there doesn't seem to be any way of overcoming the problems, there are a number of Heritage railways where commuter services could be attractive, but they all run in to the same set of problems
 
Last edited:

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
3,379
A lot of posters claim the demand isn't there for any new service or reopening, it doesn't really matter which one. As it is the future we are talking about, this can't possibly be known. Even computer modelling is just guesswork dressed up as fact. In truth it is unknowable either way, for or against but, the only way to find out is to do it. So far, some lines that have opened have done well, others not so much. None of that was knowable in advance. Only Dr Who would know but, he hasn't got the time to see us.
Seriously?
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
717
Of course, how can you know the future for something that hasn't happened? Do tell......
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
If you use any public transport journey planner it will tell you that from the East the best way to get to Swanage is to alight at Bournemouth and catch the direct bus service to Swanage taking 54 minutes to the bus station. A 2 tph service to Wareham (22 mins) then a connection to a heritage dmu taking 50 mins is never going to compete other than for people going purely for a train ride.
It doesn't help that the bus journey is one of the best along the South Coast along Bournemouth Sea Front then Sandbanks across the chain ferry then along Studland Bay in to Swanage.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
If you use any public transport journey planner it will tell you that from the East the best way to get to Swanage is to alight at Bournemouth and catch the direct bus service to Swanage taking 54 minutes to the bus station. A 2 tph service to Wareham (22 mins) then a connection to a heritage dmu taking 50 mins is never going to compete other than for people going purely for a train ride.
It doesn't help that the bus journey is one of the best along the South Coast along Bournemouth Sea Front then Sandbanks across the chain ferry then along Studland Bay in to Swanage.

Yes and worth pointing out that the 50 bus to Bournemouth gets guaranteed boarding on the ferry. The route that bus takes is relatively uncongested.
The problem is the commuter service have a different set of requirements to Heritage services and currently there doesn't seem to be any way of overcoming the problems, there are a number of Heritage railways where commuter services could be attractive, but they all run in to the same set of problems

As far as a commuter service is concerned the issue is that the train is an inferior proposition to the private car or even the bus. That is the way it is and I can not see that changing.
 

joncombe

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2016
Messages
868
I'm not sure everyone posting hear appreciates the situation in the summer. It's easy to lookup the bus and train times and conclude there are alternatives. They reality on the ground is somewhat different.

First to the number 50 bus. This uses the Sandbanks ferry. This normally runs every 20 minutes and in summer the bus every 30 minutes (with the same running time for both departures per hour). It doesn't take much to work out that you're not going to get both buses to Sandbanks to board the ferry without a wait when the ferry runs at a different frequency to the buses. However the ferry doesn't always run to timetable. When it gets busy and queues are forming the ferry runs continually (I.E. it doesn't wait for a specific time to depart) to try to clear the queues. So this means even if the buses are on time there is no guarantee they will get there and find the ferry is there, it might just be leaving and hence a good wait for the next one. On the Sandbanks side there is some bus priority in that the road around the peninsula is one-way with one lane for through traffic and one lane for the ferry. The bus uses the "through traffic lane" and then has a short bus lane to cut to the front of the ferry queue. However this too can break down when the queue for the ferry gets beyond the one-way road and then blocks up the road for all traffic. This happened a number of times last year and on several occasions the police actually closed the road (though I think it was open for residents and possibly buses) as the roads had essentially become gridlocked with traffic queuing for the ferry and car parks.

At the Studland side there isn't any sort of bus priority. However the bus does have flashing lights and a siren on and when they reach the end of the ferry queue I have seen them put this on and drive on the wrong side of the road to get to the front of the ferry queue. This strikes me as dangerous and I've seen conflicts with drivers pulling out of the boat club or car park and finding a bus driving towards them on the wrong side of the road. It seems very dangerous to me. The road isn't wide enough to put a bus lane in and keep it open to two-way traffic and I doubt the National Trust, who own the land, would agree to it being widened.

It is also horribly over-subscribed in the summer. It is common for buses to leave the square in Bournemouth full and leave people behind. There have been fights breaking out in recent years (yes, really). It did used to run every 20 minutes in peak summer, but that hasn't been the case for a good few years now. I really do feel that More Bus could do with some competition on this route. I can personally attest to the bus refusing to stop due to being completely full a number of times in recent years. I have complained to the company but they don't really seem interested in doing anything about it and it's quite predictable if it's the summer holidays or a weekend and the weather is good that it will be too full and leave people behind.

So in summary this bus is horribly unreliable and I wouldn't want to rely on it to catch a specific train at Bournemouth.

As to the route 40 well again in the summer months the A351 is often queueing traffic all the way from the A35 junction (Bakers Arms roundabout) to Wareham, in both directions. It can easily add 30 minutes to the journey time and sometimes more. There are also often queues to get through Corfe Castle. Again, there is no bus lane and probably no room to add one (the Council did widen the pavement to create a cycle path but even if that went I don't think there would be room for a bus lane). In addition at the moment except on Saturdays, SWR have reduced the train service from Wareham to 1tph each way (it used to be 2tph). So going to Swanage, the hourly train arrives at Wareham at 27 minutes past the hour. The bus departs at 11 minutes past the hour. So you have a 45 minute wait from arriving at Wareham to getting on the bus to Swanage.

So I don't really think the bus is a good alternative, especially in the summer when they become so unreliable.

I do recall on the first year of the trial Swanage Railway did say that the passenger numbers exceeded expectation (and I used the service) so it disappointing that they still haven't run the 2nd year trial. I was very happy when it was re-connected up to the main line but I've been very disappointed that it seems the same every year, Swanage railway announce the intention to run the service at the start of the year but then later abandon the plans. This has happened for a good few years now.

I don't think many people would commute from Swanage to London but I do think there would be demand for a service for commuters to Bournemouth, Poole and perhaps Southampton, given the local congestion and that could be offered. If there was sensible planning maybe tickets could also be inter-available with the buses so if the times of the train (if they run) doesn't work both ways commuters wouldn't be forced to pay again for the bus.

Yes Swanage is a small town but there are really only two roads in and out, the A351 north and the route via the ferry, both of which are unreliable so an alternative route would I think be very welcome.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
I do recall on the first year of the trial Swanage Railway did say that the passenger numbers exceeded expectation (and I used the service) so it disappointing that they still haven't run the 2nd year trial. I was very happy when it was re-connected up to the main line but I've been very disappointed that it seems the same every year, Swanage railway announce the intention to run the service at the start of the year but then later abandon the plans. This has happened for a good few years now.

2015 - no trial as DMUs not ready (but was meant to be the first year as the signalling system had been commissioned)
2016 - no trial as DMUs not ready
2107 - first year of trial with hired in stock. SR announce £70K loss on 60 day trial service (even though the passenger numbers apparently exceeded expectation).
2018 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly.
2019 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly
2020 - no trial due to COVID. Were the DMUs ready?
2021 - no trial due to COVID Were the DMUs ready?
2022 - no trial due to current economic situation. DMUs ready.

However when mention is made of the DMUs being ready / not ready the overriding issue is that SR has not yet applied for an Operators Licence for the mainline (or whatever the precise terminology is) and thus cant operate on the mainline. There are also other issues such as track access agreement, station access agreement. The Assisted Travel Policy, Customer Complaints Policy need to meet the standards laid down for mainline operators or at least be acceptable to the regulatory body.

If DC and others believe that there is a demand to be met (given all what has been said above) at what point do DC give SR notice that they must operate a service or risk the lease on the line being terminated?
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,585
Location
Northampton
However when mention is made of the DMUs being ready / not ready the overriding issue is that SR has not yet applied for an Operators Licence for the mainline (or whatever the precise terminology is) and thus cant operate on the mainline. There are also other issues such as track access agreement, station access agreement. The Assisted Travel Policy, Customer Complaints Policy need to meet the standards laid down for mainline operators or at least be acceptable to the regulatory body.
In theory there is nothing to stop the Swanage Railway from operating trains under another party's operating license - either by just contracting LSL/West Coast etc to do it or by reaching an agreement with the NYMR to use their license (as the North Norfolk does for Sheringham-Cromer trains).
 

Chris999999

Member
Joined
22 Jun 2010
Messages
238
2015 - no trial as DMUs not ready (but was meant to be the first year as the signalling system had been commissioned)
2016 - no trial as DMUs not ready
2107 - first year of trial with hired in stock. SR announce £70K loss on 60 day trial service (even though the passenger numbers apparently exceeded expectation).
2018 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly.
2019 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly
2020 - no trial due to COVID. Were the DMUs ready?
2021 - no trial due to COVID Were the DMUs ready?
2022 - no trial due to current economic situation. DMUs ready.
Well clearly whatever SR give as their excuse for this year, the real reason must be that they weren't expecting the DMUs to be ready this quickly. They will need to think of an improved excuse for 2023.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,585
Location
Northampton
Well clearly whatever SR give as their excuse for this year, the real reason must be that they weren't expecting the DMUs to be ready this quickly. They will need to think of an improved excuse for 2023.
I think their 'excuse' will be the results of the 2017 trial (my bold):
2107 - first year of trial with hired in stock. SR announce £70K loss on 60 day trial service (even though the passenger numbers apparently exceeded expectation).
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,845
2015 - no trial as DMUs not ready (but was meant to be the first year as the signalling system had been commissioned)
2016 - no trial as DMUs not ready
2107 - first year of trial with hired in stock. SR announce £70K loss on 60 day trial service (even though the passenger numbers apparently exceeded expectation).
2018 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly.
2019 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly
2020 - no trial due to COVID. Were the DMUs ready?
2021 - no trial due to COVID Were the DMUs ready?
2022 - no trial due to current economic situation. DMUs ready.

However when mention is made of the DMUs being ready / not ready the overriding issue is that SR has not yet applied for an Operators Licence for the mainline (or whatever the precise terminology is) and thus cant operate on the mainline. There are also other issues such as track access agreement, station access agreement. The Assisted Travel Policy, Customer Complaints Policy need to meet the standards laid down for mainline operators or at least be acceptable to the regulatory body.

If DC and others believe that there is a demand to be met (given all what has been said above) at what point do DC give SR notice that they must operate a service or risk the lease on the line being terminated?

Well clearly whatever SR give as their excuse for this year, the real reason must be that they weren't expecting the DMUs to be ready this quickly. They will need to think of an improved excuse for 2023.

I think their 'excuse' will be the results of the 2017 trial (my bold):
If Covid was the excuse last year, when there may well have been the biggest opportunity given the foreign travel restrictions and the amount of UK holidays taken, then they may well have missed the boat. If it couldn't be made to work last year, then it's probably never going to work.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
In theory there is nothing to stop the Swanage Railway from operating trains under another party's operating license - either by just contracting LSL/West Coast etc to do it or by reaching an agreement with the NYMR to use their license (as the North Norfolk does for Sheringham-Cromer trains).
Its all about the money. They do not wish to be at risk of losing money on the Wareham operation.

What I find galling is the huge amount of grant cash spent on the DMUs (£1.4M+) when stock could have been hired in at a fraction of the cost to run the two trials.

That money could have made good the estimated trial losses, built a carriage shed, installed the water tower, extended the platforms at Swanage with all other works for the 6 car railway and countless other projects.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,364
Location
Yorks
I think their 'excuse' will be the results of the 2017 trial (my bold):

That was clearly down to the leading arrangement though. The expected passenger numbers would have been based on the scenario where they have their own stock surely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Its all about the money. They do not wish to be at risk of losing money on the Wareham operation.

What I find galling is the huge amount of grant cash spent on the DMUs (£1.4M+) when stock could have been hired in at a fraction of the cost to run the two trials.

That money could have made good the estimated trial losses, built a carriage shed, installed the water tower, extended the platforms at Swanage with all other works for the 6 car railway and countless other projects.

Clearly such an arrangement isn't sustainable in the long term, hence their own DMU's.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,585
Location
Northampton
That was clearly down to the leading arrangement though. The expected passenger numbers would have been based on the scenario where they have their own stock surely.
Unless the leasing agreement was at least £35,000/mth more expensive than operating their own stock I don't think the financial viability was really demonstrated.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
Clearly such an arrangement isn't sustainable in the long term, hence their own DMU's.

Yes but given that a two year trial was agreed, surely good project management would suggest that hiring in, running the trial(s) and then evaluating the results before committing to the lengthy and costly restoration of the 2 DMUs would have been the most appropriate way forward.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,364
Location
Yorks
Yes but given that a two year trial was agreed, surely good project management would suggest that hiring in, running the trial(s) and then evaluating the results before committing to the lengthy and costly restoration of the 2 DMUs would have been the most appropriate way forward.

Not at all. A good, working DMU is an asset to any heritage railway, regardless of whether it gets on to the main line.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
Not at all. A good, working DMU is an asset to any heritage railway, regardless of whether it gets on to the main line.

Absolutely. SR had a class 108 DMU which they....................................sold to the Llangollen Railway for about £40K.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,837
A lot of posters claim the demand isn't there for any new service or reopening, it doesn't really matter which one. As it is the future we are talking about, this can't possibly be known. Even computer modelling is just guesswork dressed up as fact. In truth it is unknowable either way, for or against but, the only way to find out is to do it. So far, some lines that have opened have done well, others not so much. None of that was knowable in advance. Only Dr Who would know but, he hasn't got the time to see us.

Of course, how can you know the future for something that hasn't happened? Do tell......

You can have a very good estimate though.

For example, I don’t know for sure that it’s not going snow in Hertfordshire tomorrow, but the clever weather models rather suggest that it won’t.

Similarly, I don’t know for sure exactly how many passengers a year would use a reopened line from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, but I’d bet my last penny it would be nearer 200,000 than 20m. The clever transport models will give you a reasonable estimate.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
10,640
Location
Hampshire
Absolutely. SR had a class 108 DMU which they....................................sold to the Llangollen Railway for about £40K.
Yes, but only because they had the 117 and 121 as well. Little point in keeping 3 different DMUs on the line when your only likely to use 2 of them at any given moment. They will also have a fully restored 4TC on the line (not mainlined) so it made sense for the SR to sell the 108 (also not mainlined).
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
Yes, but only because they had the 117 and 121 as well. Little point in keeping 3 different DMUs on the line when your only likely to use 2 of them at any given moment. They will also have a fully restored 4TC on the line (not mainlined) so it made sense for the SR to sell the 108 (also not mainlined).

if there is little point in having 3 DMUs will the same apply with the 3 Moguls not forgetting the Bulleids?
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,845
Not at all. A good, working DMU is an asset to any heritage railway, regardless of whether it gets on to the main line.
Yes, but not when it has been restored under false pretences using taxpayer’ cash. They’ve had all the kit fitted for mainline operation, but haven’t used it. I think that’s called taking the proverbial.
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
if there is little point in having 3 DMUs will the same apply with the 3 Moguls not forgetting the Bulleids?

The Bulleids aren't owned by the railway, they are owned by Southern Locomotives Ltd who also have locos at the Spa Valley and Sellindge.

It's also reasonable to point out that Cl 108s weren't really used by Western or Southern region, whereas 121s and 117s were for pretty much all their life, so are a better "fit" than a 108.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,232
The Bulleids aren't owned by the railway, they are owned by Southern Locomotives Ltd who also have locos at the Spa Valley and Sellindge.

It's also reasonable to point out that Cl 108s weren't really used by Western or Southern region, whereas 121s and 117s were for pretty much all their life, so are a better "fit" than a 108.

Neither are the Moguls owned by Swanage Railway.
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
3,379
2015 - no trial as DMUs not ready (but was meant to be the first year as the signalling system had been commissioned)
2016 - no trial as DMUs not ready
2107 - first year of trial with hired in stock. SR announce £70K loss on 60 day trial service (even though the passenger numbers apparently exceeded expectation).
2018 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly.
2019 - no trial as DMUs not ready. SR wont hire in stock as unviable / too costly
2020 - no trial due to COVID. Were the DMUs ready?
2021 - no trial due to COVID Were the DMUs ready?
2022 - no trial due to current economic situation. DMUs ready.

However when mention is made of the DMUs being ready / not ready the overriding issue is that SR has not yet applied for an Operators Licence for the mainline (or whatever the precise terminology is) and thus cant operate on the mainline. There are also other issues such as track access agreement, station access agreement. The Assisted Travel Policy, Customer Complaints Policy need to meet the standards laid down for mainline operators or at least be acceptable to the regulatory body.

If DC and others believe that there is a demand to be met (given all what has been said above) at what point do DC give SR notice that they must operate a service or risk the lease on the line being terminated?
So it has become an endless money pot with no confidence that anyone will see any benefit from this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top