Castle Set HST / 2+4 Drivers

[Ghawk2005]

For those lucky enough to drive the GWR HST castles, something I have been intrigued by for a while. I realise each driver has their own way of doing things but wondered if drivers use anything more than step 2 / 3 in general braking scenarios. Approaching stations, final stop notch etc etc. I’m not talking about sudden danger signals or emergencies etc, I’ve seen a driver stop in Notch 3 before, but seen so many pull up really gently AND also others seriously abrupt. Was on one once that went from about 12 mph to zero in just a few seconds etc. Wondered if any higher notches are used sometimes or whether the brakes are just really strong?

thanks

 

[irish_rail]

Yes higher brake steps are used as required, on a relatively regular basis , although generally use step 1 and 2 most of the time on a set with a good brake.

 

[Kneedown]

Final stop brake notch for any HST should be "Release" to ensure the smoothest of stops. On coming to a stand notch 2 should then be applied to keep it at a stand.

 

[Ghawk2005]

Final stop brake notch for any HST should be "Release" to ensure the smoothest of stops. On coming to a stand notch 2 should then be applied to keep it at a stand.

*should be* yes, but I can assure you I have travelled on some HSTs lately and the stop has been considerably fierce, hence the original question.

 

[Railperf]

The timings seem quite relaxed, so unless the set is running late, it seems gentle braking is all that is needed - unless the consist brakes are not that responsive. Driver have reported that sometimes the brakes can feel a bit slow to kick in on some units - requiring a higher brake step, but that can then kick in too hard slowing the consist too much and requiring a lower brake notch. But if the brakes are slow to come off again the unit can almost be at a stand half way along the platform - requiring complete release and a bit of power to crawl along the platform.

 

[irish_rail]

The timings seem quite relaxed, so unless the set is running late, it seems gentle braking is all that is needed - unless the consist brakes are not that responsive. Driver have reported that sometimes the brakes can feel a bit slow to kick in on some units - requiring a higher brake step, but that can then kick in too hard slowing the consist too much and requiring a lower brake notch. But if the brakes are slow to come off again the unit can almost be at a stand half way along the platform - requiring complete release and a bit of power to crawl along the platform.

Crikey safe to say the drivers who find the brakes on these slow probably didn't drive 2 +8 sets! I've had one or 2 dodgey 2+4 brakes but that's it.
Re the timings, in Cornwall they are pretty tightly timed on many services. Unlike the 80x services which wait anything from 2 to 4 minutes at every single station in the up direction! I'm convinced they purposely slow down the IET services in Cornwall to prevent everyone trying to use those and not the slower HST trains.

 

[RPI]

Crikey safe to say the drivers who find the brakes on these slow probably didn't drive 2 +8 sets! I've had one or 2 dodgey 2+4 brakes but that's it.
Re the timings, in Cornwall they are pretty tightly timed on many services. Unlike the 80x services which wait anything from 2 to 4 minutes at every single station in the up direction! I'm convinced they purposely slow down the IET services in Cornwall to prevent everyone trying to use those and not the slower HST trains.

I've noticed in Cornwall they don't keep to time as well as they do between Exeter and Bristol/Cardiff. Its quite handy on the down arriving into Highbridge a couple of minutes early (as I did today) as it gives me time to seek out some of the Highbridge to Bridgwater toilet class passengers before we depart

 

[Railperf]

Yes, the Cornwall timings seem tight, whereas the Exeter to Cardiff timings seem a lot easier. I'm told the 2+4s suffer a fair bit of wheelslip on wet rails - which combined with some of the gradients requires gentler acceleration and cautious braking. It's clear a FLIRT style unit such as a Class 755/4 would stop and go better in those conditions. It was suggested that Scotrail units were originally going to be fitted with some sort of wheelslip protection but it was omitted to save £££. IS it possible the 2+4's on GWR would have benefitted from some more modern wheelslip protection system?

 

[irish_rail]

Yes, the Cornwall timings seem tight, whereas the Exeter to Cardiff timings seem a lot easier. I'm told the 2+4s suffer a fair bit of wheelslip on wet rails - which combined with some of the gradients requires gentler acceleration and cautious braking. It's clear a FLIRT style unit such as a Class 755/4 would stop and go better in those conditions. It was suggested that Scotrail units were originally going to be fitted with some sort of wheelslip protection but it was omitted to save £££. IS it possible the 2+4's on GWR would have benefitted from some more modern wheelslip protection system?

Yes without doubt sanders would be nice on HSTs , most of the slipping is pulling away as opposed to stopping, and slippy rails is a thing in Cornwall all year round, not just in the autumn!

 

[43096]

Yes, the Cornwall timings seem tight, whereas the Exeter to Cardiff timings seem a lot easier. I'm told the 2+4s suffer a fair bit of wheelslip on wet rails - which combined with some of the gradients requires gentler acceleration and cautious braking. It's clear a FLIRT style unit such as a Class 755/4 would stop and go better in those conditions. It was suggested that Scotrail units were originally going to be fitted with some sort of wheelslip protection but it was omitted to save £££. IS it possible the 2+4's on GWR would have benefitted from some more modern wheelslip protection system?

All the power cars were fitted with wheelslip/slide protection from new.

During 2003, Midland Mainline, Porterbrook and Brush collaborated on developing a new electronics package that included new Knorr-Bremse WSP equipment - 43048 was the prototype fit. It was subsequently fitted to all Midland, East Coast, XC, NMT and Grand Central power cars: basically all power cars except the Great Western fleet*. The original scope for the ScotRail fleet included fitting the new electronics but it was de-scoped. It's hard to understand why Great Western (and ScotRail) didn't go for it, as it offers major benefits in terms of wheel and bogie life (MML went from 488,000 miles between bogie changes to around 600,000 miles as a result), so there is a financial payback for the operator. The KB system is much more refined than the somewhat "agricultural" original and means reduced slipping and better comfort for passengers (much reducing coupler snatching as the system is much smarter at re-applying power).

* GWR's 43053/056 did have the new system fitted, but that was a legacy of their days with MML. I have a feeling that FGW wanted them reverted to the old system, which Porterbrook refused.

 

[JonathanH]

Are Castle HSTs under threat of scrap/storage due to DfT future funding? Read on Twitter that Bedwyn Class 800 services are being cut with likelihood this frees up some 5 car 800 sets

Speculation in various places does suggest that 769s would form part of a cascade that moves Turbos west, releasing 165s to move 158s further west releasing HSTs. Release of some 5-car 80x has also been discussed as a way to remove HSTs.

Upshot is Castle HSTs are expensive to operate and the railway needs to reduce costs. They have a relatively short term future as a result but no explicit withdrawal date yet.

As noted in another thread, no mainline drivers are trained to drive 769s yet.

 

[DelW]

They've only been using the Castle set's about 3 years if that, wouldn't it be a waste of money removing them from service after fitting power doors and refurbishing the MK3's?

Circumstances change - SWR's 442s were refurbished and reliveried then went for scrap. I'm not saying that'll happen to the Castle sets, but these things happen .

 

[Ashley Hill]

Typical. Finally get decent trains on the PZ-Cardiff route only to be replaced by units again.

 

[RPI]

Saw on the GWR employee portal today that the May timetable is based on having 12 Castle sets (as now) with a slight reduction from the December timetable

 

[JonathanH]

Saw on the GWR employee portal today that the May timetable is based on having 12 Castle sets (as now) with a slight reduction from the December timetable

With nothing obvious to replace them in the short term I guess that isn't too surprising but it does confirm that they will be reduced as it becomes feasible.

 

[fgwrich]

Circumstances change - SWR's 442s were refurbished and reliveried then went for scrap. I'm not saying that'll happen to the Castle sets, but these things happen .

Repainted, refurbished and retractioned, along with at least one new cab desk designed if not fitted. As disappointing as the whole Saga was, it was largely Angel Trains money wasted in that, though they all (FG, Gemini, Angel, DFT) should shoulder some of the blame in it all.

Saw on the GWR employee portal today that the May timetable is based on having 12 Castle sets (as now) with a slight reduction from the December timetable

With nothing obvious to replace them in the short term I guess that isn't too surprising but it does confirm that they will be reduced as it becomes feasible.

Thankfully, 12 out of 16 isn't too bad for fleet utilisation, and is better than ScotRail's somewhat tentative utilisation, however their somewhat disappointing reliability hasn't helped their cases for retention either. The same note mentions that a small reduction will occur from December, so they won't be leaving the fleet anytime soon. Though there is no confirmed replacement lined up yet, I think it is a safe bet that some of the former Wessex 150s may make a return to the West, along with the 158 fleet too (made more likely to be those examples as they share component parts across the 158 and 165/166 Fleets and the likelihood of EMR's being, at least in part, retained in the Midlands).

 

[RPI]

Repainted, refurbished and retractioned, along with at least one new cab desk designed if not fitted. As disappointing as the whole Saga was, it was largely Angel Trains money wasted in that, though they all (FG, Gemini, Angel, DFT) should shoulder some of the blame in it all.





Thankfully, 12 out of 16 isn't too bad for fleet utilisation, and is better than ScotRail's somewhat tentative utilisation, however their somewhat disappointing reliability hasn't helped their cases for retention either. The same note mentions that a small reduction will occur from December, so they won't be leaving the fleet anytime soon. Though there is no confirmed replacement lined up yet, I think it is a safe bet that some of the former Wessex 150s may make a return to the West, along with the 158 fleet too (made more likely to be those examples as they share component parts across the 158 and 165/166 Fleets and the likelihood of EMR's being, at least in part, retained in the Midlands).

Their reliability has been pretty poor, I'd happily see some of the TfW 150's come west, I know they're getting old now but still the best (in my opinion) traction we have!

 

[43096]

Repainted, refurbished and retractioned, along with at least one new cab desk designed if not fitted. As disappointing as the whole Saga was, it was largely Angel Trains money wasted in that, though they all (FG, Gemini, Angel, DFT) should shoulder some of the blame in it all.

I doubt Angel will have lost much on them - they would have had a watertight lease, so SWR may well have paid off the entire lease, or taken on all the liabilities with the project.

Thankfully, 12 out of 16 isn't too bad for fleet utilisation, and is better than ScotRail's somewhat tentative utilisation, however their somewhat disappointing reliability hasn't helped their cases for retention either. The same note mentions that a small reduction will occur from December, so they won't be leaving the fleet anytime soon. Though there is no confirmed replacement lined up yet, I think it is a safe bet that some of the former Wessex 150s may make a return to the West, along with the 158 fleet too (made more likely to be those examples as they share component parts across the 158 and 165/166 Fleets and the likelihood of EMR's being, at least in part, retained in the Midlands).

75% availability for sets of trailers is poor. They should be able to get 14 into service, which would be a power car availability requirement of 80%. But then Laira seem to have lost the plot and are incapable of getting sets into traffic in an acceptable timescale.

 

[317362]

GWR have stated that the 800s used on Bedwyns are off to cover for South West services, retaining Bedwyn Newbury shuttle. So what's above on 12/16 Castles still needed is interesting!

 

[fgwrich]

Their reliability has been pretty poor, I'd happily see some of the TfW 150's come west, I know they're getting old now but still the best (in my opinion) traction we have!

Those 150's are certainly proving themselves to be the most versatile of the GWR fleet of late, working anything from a St Ives branch Shuttle, to a Cornish Mainline service, to the Devon Metro, to covering for IETs on Exeter - Reading services. The advantage of the TfW units at least being that they share the same interior layout.

The poor reliability of the West Fleet HSTs is somewhat disappointing, considering the years of experience Laira have with the fleet.

 

[irish_rail]

GWR have stated that the 800s used on Bedwyns are off to cover for South West services, retaining Bedwyn Newbury shuttle. So what's above on 12/16 Castles still needed is interesting!

So we are going back to 10 car sets on the wofe route and losing the 9 cars again? A real backwards step if true.

 

[RPI]

So we are going back to 10 car sets on the wofe route and losing the 9 cars again? A real backwards step if true.

From what I can gather one or two could be used on Cardiff-Penzance diagrams.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Step 3/4 initial brake isn't uncommon for West drivers who've only ever driven units prior to the 2+4s. Some DIs, and rightly IMO, tell us to equate them to DMUs - they have 3 brake steps, HSTs have 6. Therefore, treat 1/2 as step1, 3/4 as 2, and 5/6 as 3 and brake like you would with a DMU to a degree, where we're taught inital step 2 brake, so 3/4 on a HST. Nothing wrong with step 3 being intial or main brake step.

Smoothing the actual stop out takes practice as they can vary wildly in their actual braking performance

 

[irish_rail]

From what I can gather one or two could be used on Cardiff-Penzance diagrams.

Although thinking on it I'm not sure how many units this is going to free up, perhaps 3? That isn't going to be enough to take the 9 cars away from the wofe route (not that GWR would want to surely, things have run so much smoother since the splitting and joining at Plymouth was vastly cut back.

 

[northernbelle]

Saw on the GWR employee portal today that the May timetable is based on having 12 Castle sets (as now) with a slight reduction from the December timetable

With nothing obvious to replace them in the short term I guess that isn't too surprising but it does confirm that they will be reduced as it becomes feasible.

Having a reduced fleet utilisation doesn't necessarily mean the fleet itself will be reduced - especially if reliability is poor and a greater float of vehicles is required. Never say never though - the sooner they gave way to more suitable stock the better to be honest.

Repainted, refurbished and retractioned, along with at least one new cab desk designed if not fitted. As disappointing as the whole Saga was, it was largely Angel Trains money wasted in that, though they all (FG, Gemini, Angel, DFT) should shoulder some of the blame in it all.

Thankfully, 12 out of 16 isn't too bad for fleet utilisation, and is better than ScotRail's somewhat tentative utilisation, however their somewhat disappointing reliability hasn't helped their cases for retention either. The same note mentions that a small reduction will occur from December, so they won't be leaving the fleet anytime soon. Though there is no confirmed replacement lined up yet, I think it is a safe bet that some of the former Wessex 150s may make a return to the West, along with the 158 fleet too (made more likely to be those examples as they share component parts across the 158 and 165/166 Fleets and the likelihood of EMR's being, at least in part, retained in the Midlands).

Given the aspiration has been to reduce the Class 150 fleet in favour of other stock with a better seating capacity, higher top speed and longer residual life, I'd be surprised to see any coming over in any great number. The seating layout really isn't a major consideration in the grand scheme of these things.

My personal view is that it's much more likely to see other stock coming in from elsewhere to enable a reshuffle of GWR DMUs, with HSTs and 150s starting to fall out the other side.

 

[Ashley Hill]

From what I can gather one or two could be used on Cardiff-Penzance diagrams.

With a buffet trolley?

 

[millemille]

Yes without doubt sanders would be nice on HSTs , most of the slipping is pulling away as opposed to stopping, and slippy rails is a thing in Cornwall all year round, not just in the autumn!

Sander fitment on GWR class 43's went out to tender last year and a supplier was selected but the order has yet to be placed.

 

[JonathanH]

With a buffet trolley?

No, why would the use of 80x instead of HSTs on the same service mean a buffet trolley would be aboard? Plenty of 80x workings without a buffet trolley.

 

[Ashley Hill]

No, why would the use of 80x instead of HSTs on the same service mean a buffet trolley would be aboard? Plenty of 80x workings without a buffet trolley.

There was talk of trialling trolleys on the 2+4s. Alphaline/Wessex services operated a successful trolley service on this route until FGW took over. If IETs without catering it’s just another example of carting around an expensive waste of money and space. It also raises the question of whether first class would be available on what is traditionally a second standard class service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Catering is being taken off Cardiff Portsmouth from May so I highly doubt they’ll introduce it to Cardiff Penzance at the same time.