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Russia invades Ukraine

Iskra

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I'm finding the Channel 4 coverage on Youtube the best, no wonder Russia is banning Youtube- murdered civilians isn't what they want the Russian population seeing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The MOD twitter account is also posting excellent updates.
 
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Bald Rick

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The Russians who discover otherwise and have protested in Moscow and other Russian cities are being arrested, and who knows what has happened to them?

It’s fair to say that there are many, many Russians who discover otherwise, but are not protesting. Yet.

In my view the ‘fork in the road’ will be when enough military commanders in the Russian Army realise they have been sold a whopper, and turn around.
 

Busaholic

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I’ve just seen a Facebook post from an anti-Vaxxer (ex friend, emigrated), who is claiming that what the media is reporting is lies, and that actually most of the invasion is made up. Someone has commented on the post, in a rather more restrained manner than I would, to say that her mother lives in Ukraine and is watching Russian soldiers shooting civilians on a daily basis. The response (from someone sitting in their living room in Queensland): “how do you know they are Russians?”.

FFS.
Glad to hear that he/she is an ex-friend. Unfortunately, dissemination of utter bilge is no longer confined to the wards of mental hospitals, even where they still exist, but is thriving among like-minded lunatics in all parts of the world, egging each other on with ever more preposterous theories, all fuelled by the internet and an evil cohort that knows it's all deluded rubbish but which seeks to gain a political advantage from it in imposing their extremist views. I'd most certainly place Putin in this category, at the very top.
 

Iskra

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In the Russian Upper House of Parliament, one of the elected representatives discussed a unit of 100 conscripts sent to Ukraine and says that now only four are still alive. Quite a shocking casualty rate!

From 25:00
There were fears of a nuclear disaster after Russia attacked a Ukrainian power plant overnight.

Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskyy accused Russia of “unprecedented terror” while Nato’s chief warns the suffering of Ukrainian people is only likely to get worse.

Warning: This report contains some graphic images of the conflict.
Just before that, they highlight that Putin is now using more conciliatory language, is the economic warfare working?
 
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GusB

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The Iron Curtain has descended quickly, but presumably this could actually stoke further discontent amongst the Russian population, particularly the younger folk.

It really has become like the Cold War again, with Russia at arms length from the Western world.
News coverage I was watching earlier (DW on YouTube, for a change) was more or less saying that there was a bit of a divide between the younger population who weren't buying into what the state media were peddling, and older people who refuse to believe anything else.

There was mention of the younger folk using VPN software to try to get around restrictions, and reports that some were leaving Russia completely in anticipation of being called up.
 

birchesgreen

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The Times was reporting earlier, if it's true it's extraordinary, a Chechen assassin group in Kyiv to assassinate the Ukrainian president were betrayed by rogue FSB officers which resulted in the Chechens being killed by Ukrainian forces.


Two different outfits have been sent to kill the Ukrainian president — mercenaries of the Kremlin-backed Wagner group and Chechen special forces. Both have been thwarted by anti-war elements within Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB)

On Saturday an attempt on Zelensky’s life was foiled on the outskirts of Kyiv. Ukrainian security officials said a cadre of Chechen assassins had been “eliminated” before they could reach the president

Ukrainian officials claim the information that led to the deaths of the Chechens came from disgruntled agents in the FSB who oppose the invasion.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Just before that, they highlight that Putin is now using more conciliatory language, is the economic warfare working?
Economic sanctions will take a while yet to have an impact but the people on the street who are old enough will remember what it was like although how they bring pressure to bare on their elected representatives isn't clear.
 

Iskra

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The Times was reporting earlier, if it's true it's extraordinary, a Chechen assassin group in Kyiv to assassinate the Ukrainian president were betrayed by rogue FSB officers which resulted in the Chechens being killed by Ukrainian forces.

That's very interesting - especially the rogue FSB agent bit!

A Russian commentary on the economic impact, i love the expression on the presenter's face!


Excellent!
 

philosopher

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The Times was reporting earlier, if it's true it's extraordinary, a Chechen assassin group in Kyiv to assassinate the Ukrainian president were betrayed by rogue FSB officers which resulted in the Chechens being killed by Ukrainian forces.

If there are a large number of similar rogue FSB officers, then I think it increases the chances that Putin will be removed from power, hopefully quite soon.
 

Shrop

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It’s fair to say that there are many, many Russians who discover otherwise, but are not protesting. Yet.
I like your optimism, but I can't see Russian streets teeming with protestors any time soon. Let's assume that thousands of Russian people get to learn that civilian buildings have been hit and that many civilians have died, and then that they get to see the pictures of the suffering of mothers and children that we're seeing. So they then take to the streets and protest. What you would then see is another Tiannamen Square.
In my view the ‘fork in the road’ will be when enough military commanders in the Russian Army realise they have been sold a whopper, and turn around.
Another long shot. Even the western news is being pretty unrealistic in its portrayal of the 40 mile convoy waiting up the road from Kiev, by saying their vehicles are failing, bogged down etc. and that their troops are losing faith. What really seems to be happening is that they're just waiting for the other Russian forces to arrive from the south so that they can attack together. That really doesn't take much working out ...
 

Darandio

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Another long shot. Even the western news is being pretty unrealistic in its portrayal of the 40 mile convoy waiting up the road from Kiev, by saying their vehicles are failing, bogged down etc. and that their troops are losing faith. What really seems to be happening is that they're just waiting for the other Russian forces to arrive from the south so that they can attack together. That really doesn't take much working out ...

And hang around as a sitting duck for days on end? Regardless of whether Ukraine have the aerial capability to do damage that is certainly a strange strategy to implement in modern warfare.
 

LOL The Irony

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Yeah, that’s what I thought when I saw it.
Yep, doesn't do much, if anything.
I've got to say it strikes me as rather silly, and a form of virtue signalling. Not dissimilar to banning Russian cat breeds from competitions.
You've hit the nail on the head there. It's nothing other than (insert brand here) trying to score some free, low hanging brownie points.
It doesn't, but Sainsbury's are hardly gonna send them some tanks are they?
Exactly; the criticism is baffling.
Well for starters, they could've done something more productive, such as set up donation points in stores, or donated to Ukrainian causes. Hell, why not both?
 

brad465

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Garry Kasparov now calling out Russian influence in the UK in relation sanctions:


The US far behind Europe still, and it’s no coincidence that the UK, where so much Russian money lives, has done so little. Corruption is the only word for it. If they expose it, they will be implicated themselves.

1646433256719.png

The image, as posted earlier upthread, is in the tweet Kasparov has quoted.
 

Shrop

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And hang around as a sitting duck for days on end? Regardless of whether Ukraine have the aerial capability to do damage that is certainly a strange strategy to implement in modern warfare.
Sitting ducks for who? If the Ukrainians were going to pick them off they would have done that by now, the fact is they probably no longer have the capability to do that. And as for anyone else, like NATO or anyone associated with NATO? They can't because that would be to declare war and immediately justify Putin's assertion that NATO is the aggressor, as well as providing him with the excuse to fire back to any country he likes, possibly with nuclear weapons.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Another long shot. Even the western news is being pretty unrealistic in its portrayal of the 40 mile convoy waiting up the road from Kiev, by saying their vehicles are failing, bogged down etc. and that their troops are losing faith. What really seems to be happening is that they're just waiting for the other Russian forces to arrive from the south so that they can attack together. That really doesn't take much working out ...

If that was the intention, couldn't the Russians have simply had that convoy wait in Belarus, where it'd be a lot safer for them and easier to supply food etc., until the forces in the South have actually reached Kyiv - which doesn't look like it's likely to happen for at least some days yet?
 

coppercapped

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Sitting ducks for who? If the Ukrainians were going to pick them off they would have done that by now, the fact is they probably no longer have the capability to do that. And as for anyone else, like NATO or anyone associated with NATO? They can't because that would be to declare war and immediately justify Putin's assertion that NATO is the aggressor, as well as providing him with the excuse to fire back to any country he likes, possibly with nuclear weapons.
Warfare is all about mobility - and after several days the convoy has not moved much, if at all. Mobile strikes require a supply train bringing in ammunition, food and fuel. After delivery the trucks return empty. If nothing is going back then nothing is being delivered and certainly no build up of supplies to support a forward strike can take place.

This doesn't seem to me to be an effective strike force - it's more a 60km long traffic jam. Possibly part of the force doesn't even know where it is or what it should be doing.

If the column is going nowhere then the Ukrainians would be wasting troops and munitions attacking it - apart from some strikes to make it more immovable and lower moral among its troops. Spend the effort somewhere else.
 

Cloud Strife

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If that was the intention, couldn't the Russians have simply had that convoy wait in Belarus, where it'd be a lot safer for them and easier to supply food etc., until the forces in the South have actually reached Kyiv - which doesn't look like it's likely to happen for at least some days yet?

I suspect that for the Ukrainians, they want the Russians to try and enter Kyiv. They've armed the city to the teeth, and the Russians will face hell on earth when trying to enter it. For the Russians, they don't want to try and take Kyiv until they've got clear control of the rest of the country, because otherwise they're going to risk falling victim to rear attacks.

It's a game of cat and mouse right now. There's also one other factor: the Ukrainians are wearing down the morale of the Russian troops. They're sitting now for days in a convoy where nothing is happening, they're exposed, and they might start to be aware that an attack could come out of nowhere. If I had to sit in my car for a week doing nothing much, my morale would be rock bottom too. I've once had to sit in my car from Friday until Monday, and even with blankets and a nice warm inflatable bed, I was depressed and miserable by Sunday.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I suspect that for the Ukrainians, they want the Russians to try and enter Kyiv. They've armed the city to the teeth, and the Russians will face hell on earth when trying to enter it. For the Russians, they don't want to try and take Kyiv until they've got clear control of the rest of the country, because otherwise they're going to risk falling victim to rear attacks.

It's a game of cat and mouse right now. There's also one other factor: the Ukrainians are wearing down the morale of the Russian troops. They're sitting now for days in a convoy where nothing is happening, they're exposed, and they might start to be aware that an attack could come out of nowhere. If I had to sit in my car for a week doing nothing much, my morale would be rock bottom too. I've once had to sit in my car from Friday until Monday, and even with blankets and a nice warm inflatable bed, I was depressed and miserable by Sunday.

Pure speculation, but I wonder if another factor might be, if the Ukrainians are trying to preserve ammunition, and not use it on non-urgent attacks until the new stuff Western countries are sending over reaches the front line. Quite apart from, obviously, not wanting to use their limited numbers of trained troops for anything they don't have to use them on right now. There are also all the volunteers in Ukraine signing up. I would imagine it would make sense to spend as much time and resources as they can spare at least partially training them up before engaging in more battles - that would also add to the pressure not to engage the Russians anywhere they don't have to for the time being.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Pure speculation, but I wonder if another factor might be, if the Ukrainians are trying to preserve ammunition, and not use it on non-urgent attacks until the new stuff Western countries are sending over reaches the front line. Quite apart from, obviously, not wanting to use their limited numbers of trained troops for anything they don't have to use them on right now. There are also all the volunteers in Ukraine signing up. I would imagine it would make sense to spend as much time and resources as they can spare at least partially training them up before engaging in more battles - that would also add to the pressure not to engage the Russians anywhere they don't have to for the time being.
I suspect bulk of Ukrainian military resources are of Russian / Soviet era so West might not be able to supply high quantities of ammunition that are compatible.
 

TheEdge

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I suspect that for the Ukrainians, they want the Russians to try and enter Kyiv. They've armed the city to the teeth, and the Russians will face hell on earth when trying to enter it. For the Russians, they don't want to try and take Kyiv until they've got clear control of the rest of the country, because otherwise they're going to risk falling victim to rear attacks.

Absolutely, I think at this point the Ukrainians will have the upper hand if they can force the Russians into urban combat. Local knowledge and soldiers armed with modern Western anti tank weaponry will go to town on armour in that situation. It really seems like the Russian's don't really seem to know what they are doing and I fully expect to see them sending unsupported armour into Kyiv. There are some quite graphic photos floating around where a mechanised VDV convoy has moved around Hostomel and it's been taken to pieces, and these are meant to be the better soldiers. I've heard a few reports that Ukrainian Special Forces have been floating around trying to take out artillery systems where they can find them. How effective that is and how true is another matter.

I suspect bulk of Ukrainian military resources are of Russian / Soviet era so West might not be able to supply high quantities of ammunition that are compatible.

What's getting sent in is Javelins and NLAWs and they are what is really holding the Russians back.
 

dakta

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I was thinking about this convoy - it hasn't been the focus really due to the power plant attack, but I can't make my mind up on it - I don't think given they are 10-20 miles away the distance or mud is that much of a problem, so whilst I think logistics/supplies are part of it I have to wonder if half of it is because they're not really fancying getting there that much - but they do risk a lot to attack where they are unless they have some confidence/assurance of cover in that aspect

been reading up on javelin specs (the US has shipped a number over) and i'll be honest I don't fancy driving around in an urban environment full of people around corners who might have one who could pop out of nowhere, fire and vanish into nowhere

Might just be a case of take the time to re-supply whilst the city gets softened by artillery/missile strikes and then go in once confidence rebuilt

In other news, Sky journalists in a car got ambushed, no fatalities thankfully but there was a wounding - lucky escape by the sounds of it - https://uk.yahoo.com/news/british-journalist-shot-wounded-ambush-231124050.html
A British journalist was shot and wounded in a violent ambush near the Ukrainian capital.

Stuart Ramsay, chief correspondent at Sky News, was hit by a bullet in the lower back as shooting rained down on a car carrying his crew towards Kyiv on Monday.

Camera operator Richie Mockler was also hit with two rounds to his body armour before the team managed to escape and take cover. They were later rescued by Ukrainian police.

It is thought that the attack was carried out by a saboteur Russian reconnaissance squad.



 
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Cowley

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Taking it further from the above two posts. If the main option open to Putin is of levelling a modern famous European city in front of the eyes of the world.
Would he actually do that?
 

dakta

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My opinion again, but to be quite frank about it yes I think he would if he couldn't take it by other means.

Without wanting to re-open the NATO obligations tin of worms again - he has managed to secure himself a guarantee of no boots in the ground from outsiders, which whilst you can understand the reasons for is actually quite handy bit of info for him - we already know he's not so bothered about hitting civilians and the current resistance. he seems quite un-affected by sanctions and the war-crime aspect threshold seems already in tatters so i don't see a particular obstacle if he leant that way. In fact it might be one way of making a point - make the world watch what Russia can do

Another angle of this is you can fire rockets to level a city from a distance, so where russians were showing some reluctance in tanks due to them being a quite easy target there won't be much of that as the army can be quite disconnected from the consequences.
 
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TheEdge

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Taking it further from the above two posts. If the main option open to Putin is of levelling a modern famous European city in front of the eyes of the world.
Would he actually do that?

I imagine it would be very hard to sell that its "Ukrainian saboteurs" levelling a city using Russian aircraft and would take an enourmous amount of ordnance which has to come from somewhere.

I just can't see the Russian's being able to do that really.
 

najaB

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I imagine it would be very hard to sell that its "Ukrainian saboteurs" levelling a city using Russian aircraft and would take an enourmous amount of ordnance which has to come from somewhere.
This exactly. He can control the narrative at home to an extent, but that would be pretty difficult to get away with.
 

bspahh

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This exactly. He can control the narrative at home to an extent, but that would be pretty difficult to get away with.
This is a twitter thread on the problems for the Russian economy without selling natural resources to the West, and getting hardware in return.


They are building a gas pipeline to China, but it has been done at a massive cost using cronies of Putin, and China aren't going to pay much for the gas.

The same author wrote this thread on the Russian military

 

DustyBin

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I like your optimism, but I can't see Russian streets teeming with protestors any time soon. Let's assume that thousands of Russian people get to learn that civilian buildings have been hit and that many civilians have died, and then that they get to see the pictures of the suffering of mothers and children that we're seeing. So they then take to the streets and protest. What you would then see is another Tiannamen Square.

Putin is not untouchable and turning on his own people would very likely be the end of him. I commented earlier about the military structure in Russia, and how much he appears to mistrust his own armed forces. To expand on that point, in 2016 he established the National Guard, or Rosgvardiya, under his direct command. When you look at their role it’s pretty clear he fears a coup. In the event of a full military one however even his private army won’t be able to save him.

Another long shot. Even the western news is being pretty unrealistic in its portrayal of the 40 mile convoy waiting up the road from Kiev, by saying their vehicles are failing, bogged down etc. and that their troops are losing faith. What really seems to be happening is that they're just waiting for the other Russian forces to arrive from the south so that they can attack together. That really doesn't take much working out ...

The convoy is a strange situation. Even if it’s supposed be sat there for days on end it’s not a great situation. It’s unbelievably exposed and it can’t be good for morale under the circumstances. I suspect it was either meant to be in Kyiv by now, the city having fallen, or it’s genuinely unable to make progress. Do we know what the convoy actually consists of? I’ve only seen snap shots of it (it’s 40 miles long after all!) but there appears to be a lot of logistics and supply vehicles in it. It’s certainly not a 40 mile train of heavy armour that’s for sure.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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The convoy is a strange situation. Even if it’s supposed be sat there for days on end it’s not a great situation. It’s unbelievably exposed and it can’t be good for morale under the circumstances. I suspect it was either meant to be in Kyiv by now, the city having fallen, or it’s genuinely unable to make progress. Do we know what the convoy actually consists of? I’ve only seen snap shots of it (it’s 40 miles long after all!) but there appears to be a lot of logistics and supply vehicles in it. It’s certainly not a 40 mile train of heavy armour that’s for sure.
I can't remember exactly who, when or where but at least one US analyst has said this convoy isn't continuous but is actually in pieces with gaps between them. The gaps are either due to sabotaged roadways (Ukrainian propaganda?) or more likely due to vehicle breakdowns. And not necessarily mechanical faults but rotten tyres. Apparently many of the trucks have been retrieved from long-term storage but not properly checked before being deployed. The relatively mild weather also means that their off-road capability is practically nil. But the Ukrainians are smart in not trying to attack the convoy. For one thing their air force has only a limited supply of munitions and for another leaving the Russians sitting around is quite effective at undermining morale while also consuming rations. Not to mention that the vehicles will mostly become much more vulnerable to guerilla tactics in the urban setting of Kyiv, something that the Ukrainians are very obviously preparing for.
 

Scotrail314209

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Zelensky doesn't seem to be too pleased about NATO shooting down a no-fly zone.


Volodymyr Zelenskiy has critisized Nato for refusing to implement a no-fly zone over Ukraine, saying the decision has given “the green light for further bombing of Ukrainian towns and villages”.

“All the people who die from this day forward will also die because of you, because of your weakness, because of your lack of unity,” the Ukrainian president said in an emotional nighttime address.

Nato warned on Friday that imposing a no-fly zone could provoke full-fledged war in Europe with nuclear-armed Russia. “The only way to implement a no-fly zone is to send Nato fighter planes into Ukraine’s airspace, and then impose that no-fly zone by shooting down Russian planes,” Jens Stoltenberg, the Nato chief, said. “If we did that, we’ll end up with something that could end in a full-fledged war in Europe, involving many more countries and causing much more human suffering.”

Zelenskiy said Nato countries have created a narrative that a no-fly zone would provoke Russia’s aggression against Nato. “This is the self-hypnosis of those who are weak, insecure inside, despite the fact they possess weapons many times stronger than we have,” he said.

I do see Zelensky's point, but I don't understand where the lack of unity comes from on this as I believe NATO leaders agreed unanimously on not enforcing a no-fly-zone over Ukraine.

I think the risk is too great, and NATO have seen that.
 

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