(What if) TFL money saving ideas

[Dstock7080]

I think it's something like one in three trains terminate at Seven Sisters and proceed to the depot as a staff service.

All trains now run through to Walthamstow, the Staff train operates as a shuttle from Seven Sisters

 

[Ken H]

All trains now run through to Walthamstow, the Staff train operates as a shuttle from Seven Sisters

Is that level of service to walthamstow justified? Is the level of service south of victoria justified?

 

[SynthD]

Yes. The service they want to run is worth it, even if it takes buying more trains for some lines.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is that level of service to walthamstow justified? Is the level of service south of victoria justified?

South - definitely!!!! There's the interchange at Vauxhall and Brixton isn't exactly some quiet backwater.

 

[cle]

The Victoria line is basically full the whole way. Railheads at the northern end, not least Stansted - and feeding from the Northern line and SWML locals at the southern end. And Brixton itself is a huge generator.

The Jubilee, Piccadilly, Central and Bakerloo offer a lot more in this regard of more short-turns. Upminster too maybe.

 

[bramling]

Is that level of service to walthamstow justified? Is the level of service south of victoria justified?

Yes and yes, plus turning at Victoria simply isn't viable as the time taken to tip out would delay the rest of the service too much.

If really desperate, some could be turned at Seven Sisters, but by the time the train has tipped out and reversed, it might as well have run to Walthamstow. The turning of trains at Seven Sisters in more recent times has tended to be more operationally led - firstly to provide staff trains to Northumberland Park, and secondly because Walthamstow was initially unable to handle the full peak service as the line was built and equipped built on the basis that demand levels at Walthamstow would not merit all trains going there.

 

[Edsmith]

Yes and yes, plus turning at Victoria simply isn't viable as the time taken to tip out would delay the rest of the service too much.

If really desperate, some could be turned at Seven Sisters, but by the time the train has tipped out and reversed, it might as well have run to Walthamstow. The turning of trains at Seven Sisters in more recent times has tended to be more operationally led - firstly to provide staff trains to Northumberland Park, and secondly because Walthamstow was initially unable to handle the full peak service as the line was built and equipped built on the basis that demand levels at Walthamstow would not merit all trains going there.

Well there used to be shuttles between Victoria and King's Cross, a few last stop announcements on approach usually has the desired effect. Having said that, peak hour loadings aren't what they once were so such shuttle services may not be the best use of resources nowadays.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well there used to be shuttles between Victoria and King's Cross

not recently, at least in normal service.

 

[stuu]

Is the level of service south of victoria justified?

In case you are unaware, Brixton tube station is used by more passengers every year than Leeds station

 

[Ken H]

In case you are unaware, Brixton tube station is used by more passengers every year than Leeds station

If the tube is so full it looks like some adjustment to fares is necessary.

 

[MattRat]

A lot of these 'money saving' ideas would just end up cutting passenger numbers, which would mean less income and back to square one.

 

[Goldfish62]

A lot of these 'money saving' ideas would just end up cutting passenger numbers, which would mean less income and back to square one.

Yes, a spiral of decline. Everyone understands that except, it seems, the Treasury and DfT.

 

[Edsmith]

Yes, a spiral of decline. Everyone understands that except, it seems, the Treasury and DfT.

Everyone seems to understand the need for savings except people on groups like this, and it can only be done by reducing services or putting up fares.

 

[Goldfish62]

Everyone seems to understand the need for savings except people on groups like this, and it can only be done by reducing services or putting up fares.

While taking into account elasticity of demand. Savings in isolation are a nonsense if they result in a net reduction in income.

 

[miklcct]

Everyone seems to understand the need for savings except people on groups like this, and it can only be done by reducing services or putting up fares.

Reducing frequencies such that every bus becomes 90% - 100% full is the best way to save money, while keeping connectivity of the whole network.

 

[SynthD]

They already do something close to that, but with the practicalities of the real world it's pretty easy to find an empty looking bus.

 

[stuu]

Reducing frequencies such that every bus becomes 90% - 100% full is the best way to save money, while keeping connectivity of the whole network.

At what point in it's journey? Buses in London have a constant turnover of passengers, very few go from their stop to the end of the route

 

[miklcct]

At what point in it's journey? Buses in London have a constant turnover of passengers, very few go from their stop to the end of the route

For the most part of its journey - if a journey has uneven loading in part of the route, turn some of the buses short to avoid those.

 

[87 027]

While taking into account elasticity of demand.

And understanding the link between activity and the cost, and the difference between fixed, stepped and marginal costs!

 

[geoffk]

Would we be having this discussion if the London mayor was a Tory? (I've never lived in London but my son is there, daughter also a few years ago).

 

[skyhigh]

Reducing frequencies such that every bus becomes 90% - 100% full is the best way to save money, while keeping connectivity of the whole network.

a) Bus frequencies have already been reduced
b) What happens when you lose passengers because the bus isn't frequent enough for their needs?
c) How do you cope if one bus is unavoidably cancelled last minute due to a fault? You won't get 200% loading on the next bus and passengers will have to wait longer for the ones after...
d) What if the bus is 50% full for the first third, 100% full for the middle third and 20% full for the last third?

 

[Edsmith]

Would we be having this discussion if the London mayor was a Tory? (I've never lived in London but my son is there, daughter also a few years ago).

I'm not sure that would make any difference.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Here goes:

1: Cut the Bakerloo north of Stonebridge Park, 3tph to Stonebridge, 3tph to Queens Park, 6tph overall on the Bakerloo line, the Watford Overground line is more than adequate to replace the Bakerloo up to Harrow & Wealdstone.

2: Cut Amersham & Chesham branches from the Met, concentrate only on Watford/Uxbridge and run the Met into Baker Street, maybe have Chiltern take over the Chesham branch either as a shuttle to and from Chalfont or the train splits into an Amersham/Aylesbury and Chesham portion (2 coaches to Chesham, 2/4 to Aylesbury)

3: Make the Waterloo & City peak hours only, no off peak or Weekend service

4: Piccadilly cut back to Rayners Lane at all times.

5: Make Covent Garden a peak hour only station, no weekends either

6: Merge the Hammersmith & City and Circle lines into one, as the Hammersmith & Circle following the current Circle line route.

7: Controversial but maybe reduce the weekend opening hours on certain City stations on the District and Hammersmith & Circle lines.

 

[miklcct]

Make Covent Garden a peak hour only station, no weekends either

What's the intention of this? This is a station in the city centre and thousands of visitors use it!

 

[Mojo]

5: Make Covent Garden a peak hour only station, no weekends either

Covent Garden is busier at weekends than during the week, how does this make any sense? When the station was exit only due to lift replacement works in February to November 2014-15, Leicester Sq station was exceptionally busy to the point that crowd control had to be implemented on a regular basis, particularly during the post-theatre rush just before 10pm, but more generally at random points throughout the day. This required more staff to be provided at Leicester Sq to manage the crowding, a greater number of extra staff were required than the minimum numbers at Covent Garden!

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6: Merge the Hammersmith & City and Circle lines into one, as the Hammersmith & Circle following the current Circle line route.

There is more demand to go through to the East End from the City than round the Circle, so why would you do this?!

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This might seem controversial but with Leicester Square a few minutes away which is more accessible. I'm not sure on the state of the lifts but they seemed to be suffering from age the last time I was there a couple of years ago. If the lifts are due for replacement soon then it could be cheaper to close the station.

Two of the Covent Garden lifts were replaced 2014 and the other two in 2015. There’s nothing wrong with them. See above for also why closing Covent is a bad idea.

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I think I have suggested this before, however TfL could close the Met line between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge. Those living on the Uxbridge branch of the Met line would have to take the Piccadilly line into Central London, which is generally slower.

Might make a certain high profile MP notice when his constituents start getting annoyed!

Given the Uxbridge branch is the busiest branch of the Met, and the Picc is every 20 Min off peak / 10 Min at peaks, I don’t think that is particularly helpful!

 

[bramling]

not recently, at least in normal service.

Yes not for very many years. No way such could run nowadays, it would be chaotic.

 

[Edsmith]

Here goes:

1: Cut the Bakerloo north of Stonebridge Park, 3tph to Stonebridge, 3tph to Queens Park, 6tph overall on the Bakerloo line, the Watford Overground line is more than adequate to replace the Bakerloo up to Harrow & Wealdstone.

2: Cut Amersham & Chesham branches from the Met, concentrate only on Watford/Uxbridge and run the Met into Baker Street, maybe have Chiltern take over the Chesham branch either as a shuttle to and from Chalfont or the train splits into an Amersham/Aylesbury and Chesham portion (2 coaches to Chesham, 2/4 to Aylesbury)

3: Make the Waterloo & City peak hours only, no off peak or Weekend service

4: Piccadilly cut back to Rayners Lane at all times.

5: Make Covent Garden a peak hour only station, no weekends either

6: Merge the Hammersmith & City and Circle lines into one, as the Hammersmith & Circle following the current Circle line route.

7: Controversial but maybe reduce the weekend opening hours on certain City stations on the District and Hammersmith & Circle lines.

1.... Agree, could possibly terminate it at Piccadilly Circus?

2.... Agree in principle

3 & 4.... Agree

5.... Covent Garden is probably busier at weekends than during peak hours.

6.... Might be simpler to just terminate at Met Line trains at Baker Street.

7.... Agree in principle, there are probably a few stations that could be closed at certain times without causing undue hardship.

 

[MotCO]

Reducing frequencies such that every bus becomes 90% - 100% full is the best way to save money, while keeping connectivity of the whole network.

But many routes have peak flows in one direction. Buses may be full going from A to B in the morning, but could be almost empty going from B to A. If you reduce frequencies for B to A so that each bus is 90% full, you'll have a lot of buses queuing up at B, waiting to be full!

I also mentioned upthread that some routes should not always be end to end which seems to be TfL's preference. Some buses could be saved by regularly turning short.

Also I'm sure that some routes duplicate others and could be thinned out. For example, the 261 and 61 (as well as the 358) all run from Bromley to Locksbottom. The 261 terminates at Locksbottom (Princess Royal Hospital). Could the 61 be withdrawn in its entirety, and the 261 extended to cover the 61 route from Locksbottom to Chislehurst?

 

[Edsmith]

But many routes have peak flows in one direction. Buses may be full going from A to B in the morning, but could be almost empty going from B to A. If you reduce frequencies for B to A so that each bus is 90% full, you'll have a lot of buses queuing up at B, waiting to be full!

I also mentioned upthread that some routes should not always be end to end which seems to be TfL's preference. Some buses could be saved by regularly turning short.

Also I'm sure that some routes duplicate others and could be thinned out. For example, the 261 and 61 (as well as the 358) all run from Bromley to Locksbottom. The 261 terminates at Locksbottom (Princess Royal Hospital). Could the 61 be withdrawn in its entirety, and the 261 extended to cover the 61 route from Locksbottom to Chislehurst?

I agree that routes should not necessarily be end to end, some have a much bigger demand at one end of the route than the other and I think you're right that the 61 could be withdrawn with the 261 going to Orpington and possibly the 161 or 353 covering the Orpington to Chislehurst section. There is far too much unnecessary duplication throughout the network

 

[miklcct]

But many routes have peak flows in one direction. Buses may be full going from A to B in the morning, but could be almost empty going from B to A. If you reduce frequencies for B to A so that each bus is 90% full, you'll have a lot of buses queuing up at B, waiting to be full!

In such situation saving can be made by dead running some buses back to the origin in the reverse peak direction, for example, dead running 3 out of 4 incoming departures back using the motorways from the city back to the suburb in the morning peak.