Wacky formations

[507 001]

How about this one?

 

[Mat17]

That's random indeed!

 

[nw1]

How about this one? View attachment 110321View attachment 110322View attachment 110323

What unit is that? The predecessors to 507s/508s I presume? (503s I think?)

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That's not a regular working as per the OP, but here's a similar one from Feb. 1985 at Ashtead - 33034+EPB+CIG to Dorking.
View attachment 110192

That screams '1980s' in so many ways.

The stock obviously (though the 33 isn't normal for this route, presumably hauling the units due to electrical supply problems) but also:

- The large-font BR signage.
- The style of adverts.
- The station light; that style was common in the 80s but was largely replaced in more recent years.
- It's February and it's snowing. We had proper winters then, not these damp wishy-washy affairs that dominate the present era...

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When the Southern lines west of Salisbury were transferred to the Western in the 1960s, the services were dieselised promptly with spare WR 3-car dmus, replacing the old, comfortable Bulleid steam-hauled stock. These comprised some WR cross-country units, and some suburban units sent from South Wales. These latter, 3+2 seats, no gangways and no toilets, were mixed in on some lengthy runs, such as Salisbury to Ilfracombe. There were a series of complaints which eventually got to the local MPs, the Minister of Transport, the BR Chairman, and thence down to Paddington with an instruction to Do Something.

So one weekend the sets were all broken up and trailers exchanged between the types. Two of the three cars in the cross-country sets had toilets, so now there was one car in each set with more comfortable seats and toilets. The resulting formations looked ridiculous, cars with different profiles, with the cross-country gangways now hanging loose because they were all next to a suburban non-gangwayed car. Worse, they were halfway through repainting from green into BR corporate at the time, blue for the suburbans and blue/grey for the cross-countries, and there were several 3-car sets with each car in a different colour scheme. They lasted like this for several years.

I do remember seeing these sorts of journeys in the 1965 WR timetable on TimetableWorld. However I'm surprised people would be overly fussed about the stock as they appeared to operate the stopping trains only, not the through Waterloo services, and these cross-Exeter workings were presumably for operational convenience only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2022 ==

I'm sure that any train crew can confirm/deny but I always thought 12 cabs was the maximum, reducing to eight cabs for formations including Pacers. I'm not sure why there is a difference. Northern definitely used to have a 4 x 142 set off Newton Heath in the afternoon.

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Was the class 33 ever sandwiched between the 4TC and the leading VEP? Must have been surreal siting at the front of the VEP with the 33 thrashing away at 85 mph just outside the window.

It wasn't booked AFAIK, although I do remember reading somewhere (probably on this forum) that it happened on occasion.

 

[D6130]

What unit is that? The predecessors to 507s/508s I presume? (503s I think?)

No...that's a 507 0r 508, being hauled somehow by a preserved ex-LMS 'Jinty' 0-6-0 tank locomotive sometime in the 1980s at Southport. Was it in connection with an open day at the former Steamport museum?

 

[nw1]

No...that's a 507 0r 508, being hauled somehow by a preserved ex-LMS 'Jinty' 0-6-0 tank locomotive sometime in the 1980s at Southport. Was it in connection with an open day at the former Steamport museum?

Ah, I thought it looked rather like a 507/508, but I was confused by the steam loco and the black-and-white photo which made me date it as 1960s at the latest. I think I just assumed the older units looked similar!

 

[D6130]

Ah, I thought it looked rather like a 507/508, but I was confused by the steam loco and the black-and-white photo which made me date it as 1960s at the latest. I think I just assumed the older units looked similar!

No, the older units (502s on the Southport line and 503s on the Wirral and Mersey lines) had a very different shape and profile. Unfortunately I am unable to do links, but Wikipedia has good photos and descriptions.

 

[Deepgreen]

How about this one? View attachment 110321View attachment 110322View attachment 110323

Amazing shots - I had never heard of this working. I assume the loco was providing all the brake force. To think it was a regular scheduled working too, as per the OP's stipulation!

 

[O L Leigh]

a diagram from the associated instructions for the Westcode braking system - a generic document, showing the arrangement what I believe is a DC EMU and where train wire 4 is instead known as train wire 13, but the principle should be the same

That looks like a 3 car EMU diagram, probably from a PEP-derived class.

Yes, wire 13 does the same job on an EMU as wire 4 on a DMU. Where the types are different is in the number and location of batteries on the unit. DMUs generally have one set per car but EMUs generally only have one set per unit, often located on one of the middle coaches, hence the need for jumper connections between vehicles. However, you are correct to say that the principle is largely the same.

The diagram you have linked to shows the lead cab being in the DMS without the batteries but it shows no other battery supply on the corresponding car, suggesting that when the driver changes ends the lead vehicle would now be the one providing the battery supply rather than the rear one. I believe that the purpose of labelling the diagram "Front Cab" and "Rear Cab" is to show which items of cab equipment are on the brake continuity wire when the key is either in or out.

It also strikes me as being perhaps a tad simplistic, in that the connection to wire 13 between units would be made via the drumswitch (DS 34) rather than separately from it. The way I always understood it to work was that, in the uncoupled position, the circuit was closed within the individual unit but, when coupled in multi, rather than simply being open, it acted instead as two open ends that joined to the two open ends in the other unit's drumswitch, so that the circuit would be extended throughout the entire train (equally simplistic diagram below to illustrate). Consequently, I am unsure whether or not having the drumswitch in the coupled position would isolate the battery supply in the leading unit. I would have to hope not, otherwise there would appear to be no other way to feed the brake continuity circuit in the event that the battery on the trailing unit failed.

Unit 1 Unit 2
-o->-o-

-o-<-o-

Your observation about there being no connection between the battery supply between units through the coupler is correct, but the control circuits which use the same voltage (110V DC) are fed through.

Another aspect of the diagram that gives me a little disquiet is the suggestion that the drumswitch on the lead end should be out of circuit when the driver's key is in. Experience would indicate that this is incorrect, as a drumswitch in the incorrect position at the lead end would also interrupt the brake continuity circuit resulting in an emergency brake application.

However, what the diagram does illustrate nicely is the way that the brake continuity wire forms a circuit. As with most circuits, it doesn't really matter where the power is fed into it, as breaking the circuit at any point would de-energise it. It may be the case that DMUs always feed wire 4 from the rearmost vehicle, but this isn't strictly necessary to prove that units in multi haven't come apart. While DMUs don't have a drumswitch in the same way as EMUs do, they will have something equivalent to ensure that control signals are passed between them.

Of course, I could just be talking a whole load of nonsense.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Back in the early to mid 1990s there was an evening peak service on the Calder Valley line which often paired a 158 with a 141. That combination certainly looked odd, even when both units were in WYPTE red.

 

[Bikeman78]

I guess the old-school and electric equivalent would be CIG + EPB. Used to get that combo quite a lot e.g. on East Grinstead and the Windsor branches.

During snow in 1990 or 1991 I saw a couple of CIG+EPB formations on Victoria to Portsmouth/Bognor trains down the Arun valley.

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The Brighton to London bike ride return specials used to be 12EPB - six for passengers and six with seat cushions removed to form bike racks, with each coach assiged a station at which to unload.

Summer 1993 was the final blast for those workings. Central division EPBs finished in May 1993 so 12 car rakes were loaned from South Eastern. They were motley lash ups including several two cars and unrefurbished units. Must have been a real blast hurtling down the Brighton line on those.

 

[D6130]

Back in the early to mid 1990s there was an evening peak service on the Calder Valley line which often paired a 158 with a 141. That combination certainly looked odd, even when both units were in WYPTE red.

That must have been a nightmare to drive, with the cable-operated tread brakes and epicyclic gear box on the 141 and the disc brakes and Voith transmission on the 158....especially during the leaf-fall season (unless, of course, it was 141 113).

 

[Deepgreen]

During snow in 1990 or 1991 I saw a couple of CIG+EPB formations on Victoria to Portsmouth/Bognor trains down the Arun valley.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2022 ==


Summer 1993 was the final blast for those workings. Central division EPBs finished in May 1993 so 12 car rakes were loaned from South Eastern. They were motley lash ups including several two cars and unrefurbished units. Must have been a real blast hurtling down the Brighton line on those.

Yes - I timed a 12 car rake on one of my runs on it at 81mph on one gentle descent!

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes - I timed a 12car rake on one of my runs on it at 81mph on one gentle descent!

Awesome. Even 29 years later I can still hear the sound of them hammering down the bank from Ockley to Warnham, the motor bogie usually hunting like crazy. I think 5412 was one of the few refurbs that kept blue and grey to the end.

 

[Deepgreen]

Awesome. Even 29 years later I can still hear the sound of them hammering down the bank from Ockley to Warnham, the motor bogie usually hunting like crazy. I think 5412 was one of the few refurbs that kept blue and grey to the end.

I sense you are not far from me, at Betchworth near Dorking! Here's one at Warnham in semaphore days. Apologies for a little stray from the topic!

 

[507 001]

No...that's a 507 0r 508, being hauled somehow by a preserved ex-LMS 'Jinty' 0-6-0 tank locomotive sometime in the 1980s at Southport. Was it in connection with an open day at the former Steamport museum?

Yes, correct on both counts

 

[nw1]

I sense you are not far from me, at Betchworth near Dorking! Here's one at Warnham in semaphore days. Apologies for a little stray from the topic!

When was this incidentally? The semaphore (and the EPB, obviously) dates it but I can just detect a modern-style station light on the upper right of the picture; that style was only introduced, IIRC, in the mid-80s. So, I'd guess late 80s or early 90s?

 

[yorksrob]

Oh how I miss those !

 

[Deepgreen]

When was this incidentally? The semaphore (and the EPB, obviously) dates it but I can just detect a modern-style station light on the upper right of the picture; that style was only introduced, IIRC, in the mid-80s. So, I'd guess late 80s or early 90s?

It was very shorty before the box was abolished - I chatted wiith the signalman for quite a while and he obliged by letting me video him working the crossing. I would guess 1989.

 

[Bikeman78]

I sense you are not far from me, at Betchworth near Dorking! Here's one at Warnham in semaphore days. Apologies for a little stray from the topic!

I grew up in Horsham in the '80s and '90s. The EPBs were always my favourite units. Brutal but very reliable. Never had one fail, even in snow.

 

[nw1]

How about a couple more from slam-door days, both featuring HAPs.

Firstly, one which I've just discovered from the 1981 Central Division CWN, which I have obtained via a member of the Modern EMUs group via email.

1618 Victoria-Brighton stopper, formed 2HAP + 4CIG + 4VEG* + 2HAP. Front 6 to Brighton, VEG to Gatwick (standard practice) and rear HAP detached at Redhill for mail purposes. First time I've ever seen evidence of HAPs at both end of a formation, never saw such a formation myself first-hand in the 80s. The year after, the Central Division combined all their HAPs into CAPs, so the formation was not maintained in the 1982 timetable.

On a similar 'wacky HAP' topic, the 1758 Waterloo-Southampton stopper of summer 1991 (and 1550 Southampton-Waterloo up) featured a HAP sandwich, 4CIG or VEP (seemed to vary) + 2HAP + 4VEP. Such formations were almost unheard of as they would prevent people walking from one 42x unit to the other; indeed it was the only 'HAP sandwich' I ever observed.

(* modified VEPs for Gatwick use)

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It was very shorty before the box was abolished - I chatted wiith the signalman for quite a while and he obliged by letting me video him working the crossing. I would guess 1989.

Ah ok thanks, yes that would figure.

 

[yorksrob]

Very much enjoying the slam door reminiscences.

 

[Taunton]

The Brighton to London bike ride return specials used to be 12EPB - six for passengers and six with seat cushions removed to form bike racks, with each coach assiged a station at which to unload. In the 1950s some summer Saturday Victoria to Brighton regular extras were 12SUB.

Contrary to some belief (and likely instructions), the seat cushions were not removed from these, at least at the end of such operations, says one who actually loaded his bike in. Surprised me too. In fact towards the end EPBs had their seat cushions fixed in, possibly to overcome a vandalism regular event of throwing them out of the window. The original intent of reversable cushions was to allow mailbags to be carried in the units off-peak. The good old Trojan upholstery semed to stand up to it, but I wonder how many City office suits had mysterious oil stains on them the following morning.

I had no idea on using this return service how they were going to do it; I had envisaged that MLVs would be used. In fact the number of bikes to be returned was way more than the total MLV fleet would have handled.

If you want my all-time, high speed EPB experience, from 1978, it's here :

How will GTR cope with Brighton Pride crowds?

I think that it may actually be 666 seated plus 1088 standing. http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2017-0413/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail_small.pdf That actually makes more sense. So, maximum capacity of 1754, which I doubt could be increased much further. That's still 33...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bikeman78]

On a similar 'wacky HAP' topic, the 1758 Waterloo-Southampton stopper of summer 1991 (and 1550 Southampton-Waterloo up) featured a HAP sandwich, 4CIG or VEP (seemed to vary) + 2HAP + 4VEP. Such formations were almost unheard of as they would prevent people walking from one 42x unit to the other; indeed it was the only 'HAP sandwich' I ever observed.

Occasionally Selhurst would chuck out a 2EPB+4EPB+2EPB formation. On a similar theme, there was a 456+455+456 formation from Victoria to Dorking just before they finished on Southern.

 

[Class800]

I used to see 158 + 144 in Leeds a lot. Always seemed a fair mis-match!

150 and a pacer was common on Exmouth/Paignton branches until recently

 

[py_megapixel]

150 and a pacer was common on Exmouth/Paignton branches until recently

Was also a completely standard thing to get on Northern, right up until the last few of the awful things were sent for scrap.

 

[nw1]

Occasionally Selhurst would chuck out a 2EPB+4EPB+2EPB formation. On a similar theme, there was a 456+455+456 formation from Victoria to Dorking just before they finished on Southern.

Must look out for the former in the 1981 CWN I have. Certainly there are plenty of instances of EPBs longer than 4 coaches running throughout the day, even off-peak: lots of 4+2 combinations for instance.

Sadly I missed most of the 456 days on the Southern; given the 456's different front design, I always found the concept of a 455+456 lashup quite interesting but only saw them rarely.

 

[Strathclyder]

Further to the ScotRail 158+170 combos discussed earlier, 156+170 combos could also occur with ScR (not sure how often it happens now, if at all), albeit mostly confined to ECS workings. Both units being in Barbie or a Barbie/Saltire mix was most common when such combos occurred - and ofc going back to the National Express era, both units being in that franchise's house colors - but a SPT combo cropped up in July 2005:

156436 - Wormit

156436 and 170470 are seen at Wormit forming 5Z02 17.03 Dundee to Leuchars empty stock for an additional service to Edinburgh

www.flickr.com

(156436 & 170470 at Wormit with a Dundee to Leuchars ECS for an additional service to Edinburgh - 16th July 2005. Copyright of Jim Ramsey)

This is the first picture I've ever seen of a SPT 156 & 170 running in multiple (can't have happened too often at all). Bonus points for it being one of the last times a 156 was seen in normal service in/north of Dundee/Perth. The last time was during the 2007 British Open Golf Championship, which brought a trio of SPT 156s to Carnoustie.

 

[alexl92]

I had no idea any 170s were in SPT livery!

 

[Anonymous10]

I had no idea any 170s were in SPT livery!

what was spt

 

[py_megapixel]

what was spt

Strathclyde Partnership for Transport. The Wikipedia page has several photos of the livery on different trains and buses if you're interested.