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Why is it very wrong? It's been part of our culture and traditions for a thousand years. I'd agree if people were getting plastered at lunchtime, but it seems to be for the most part a few drinks at the end of the work day.
I personally don't feel that it is at all appropriate for an inquiry into goings on during a time of restrictions, to be used by the investigator to pursue personal and off-topic opinions about office culture in general.
Much as I disagree with much of what Johnson has implemented, and feel that his position as PM is untenable in the medium term, I do think that we could have done worse in terms of restrictions and lockdown etc over the past two years.
Much as I disagree with much of what Johnson has implemented, and feel that his position as PM is untenable in the medium term, I do think that we could have done worse in terms of restrictions and lockdown etc over the past two years.
For me this is a far simpler matter than many are making out.
I’m ignoring all the extraneous noise about whether drinking in the workplace is right or wrong, whether we should have had the level of restrictions we did (or more or less), etc etc.
I’m ignoring any questions about who might replace him.
I’m ignoring questions around other policies.
I’m looking purely at Johnson’s personal behaviour. The nature of the man. He has repeatedly misled Parliament. He has treated Parliament and the people with utter contempt. His behaviour yesterday with the comments about Savile and drug taking were reprehensible.
Putin will be quaking in his (jack)boots! Perhaps Johnson and co will return the billions of roubles 'invested' in property and other ventures by Putin and his cronies so they can find another country to launder it through. A threat from Johnson to Putin is like one from Trump would have been - utterly hollow and sham.
Putin will be quaking in his (jack)boots! Perhaps Johnson and co will return the billions of roubles 'invested' in property and other ventures by Putin and his cronies so they can find another country to launder it through. A threat from Johnson to Putin is like one from Trump would have been - utterly hollow and sham.
I personally don't feel that it is at all appropriate for an inquiry into goings on during a time of restrictions, to be used by the investigator to pursue personal and off-topic opinions about office culture in general.
Much as I disagree with much of what Johnson has implemented, and feel that his position as PM is untenable in the medium term, I do think that we could have done worse in terms of restrictions and lockdown etc over the past two years.
I’ve said this before, but I don’t think Johnson can be credited with that.
In reality he has been buffeted in a storm, pulled by SAGE in one direction, and elements of the Conservative party on the other, and scared to nail his colours too firmly to the mast because deep down he knows he simply would not be able to defend a position were he to end up in front of a proper scrutinising inquiry - the type of enquiry where he can’t bat off scrutiny by hurling insults or making puerile jokes. We got lockdown because SAGE pushed harder at the time, and we didn’t get it this time because the backbenchers were stronger.
Then there’s the way a lot of restrictions were done. Look at all the fuss surrounding masks for an example of a consequence to his clumsiness. We now find out that clearly he didn’t believe in his own policies or he would have made at least some attempt to observe them.
As for alcohol in the workplace, if it impairs judgement sufficiently that someone can’t drive a train when intoxicated, then I don’t want people in that state who are making decisions which have far-reaching consequences into all our lives. They’ve had their chance on that, and they’ve blown it.
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For me this is a far simpler matter than many are making out.
I’m ignoring all the extraneous noise about whether drinking in the workplace is right or wrong, whether we should have had the level of restrictions we did (or more or less), etc etc.
I’m ignoring any questions about who might replace him.
I’m ignoring questions around other policies.
I’m looking purely at Johnson’s personal behaviour. The nature of the man. He has repeatedly misled Parliament. He has treated Parliament and the people with utter contempt. His behaviour yesterday with the comments about Savile and drug taking were reprehensible.
I’ve said this before, but I don’t think Johnson can be credited with that.
In reality he has been buffeted in a storm, pulled by SAGE in one direction, and elements of the Conservative party on the other, and scared to nail his colours too firmly to the mast because deep down he knows he simply would not be able to defend a position were he to end up in front of a proper scrutinising inquiry - the type of enquiry where he can’t bat off scrutiny by hurling insults or making puerile jokes. We got lockdown because SAGE pushed harder at the time, and we didn’t get it this time because the backbenchers were stronger.
Then there’s the way a lot of restrictions were done. Look at all the fuss surrounding masks for an example of a consequence to his clumsiness. We now find out that clearly he didn’t believe in his own policies or he would have made at least some attempt to observe them.
As for alcohol in the workplace, if it impairs judgement sufficiently that someone can’t drive a train when intoxicated, then I don’t want people in that state who are making decisions which have far-reaching consequences into all our lives. They’ve had their chance on that, and they’ve blown it.
I agree that Johnson has been buffeted. However I can't ignore the reality that someone more invested in the efficacy of restrictions would have had us under worse ones for longer.
When he does go (which will be soon) they'd better be damned careful they don't put in someone who's gone in with the pro-restriction lot.
I agree that Johnson has been buffeted. However I can't ignore the reality that someone more invested in the efficacy of restrictions would have had us under worse ones for longer.
When he does go (which will be soon) they'd better be damned careful they don't put in someone who's gone in with the pro-restriction lot.
I don’t think that’s *too* much of an issue, as much of the party is sceptical at best regarding restrictions. Gove is perhaps the exception, but I can’t see him getting it (though Conservative leadership campaigns do have a habit of choosing the least expected candidate). In reality, it’s probably going to be Sunak, which is probably good news from a restriction point of view.
I do tend to think restrictions are a bit of a busted flush now. A lot of pro-restriction political capital has been used up by the Omicron saga, and Covid itself is now getting pretty endemic. I’d say the most salient issue is now dealing with the fall-out, and I’d include Ukraine in this as the cynical view would be that Putin is very much taking the opportunity to do stuff whilst the west is all in a tizzy over Covid.
The worrying thing is none of the potential Johnson replacements are particularly heavy hitters, nor seem particularly talented - this is where we need a Clarke or Portillo figure, and we don’t have it. Lack of leadership talent has been a problem for some time, indeed it’s one reason we ended up with Johnson in the first place. All the main parties have suffered from this since the Cameron / Miliband / Clegg era, these are the most recent I’d regard as reasonably heavy hitters. May to be fair could have been okay in the right circumstances, she had a torrid time of it and this took its toll on her.
I think it is fair to say that he is libertarian as evidenced by his behaviour. Those who behave like he does don't generally have much time for rules and regulations. My suspicion is that be personally would have stuck with herd immunity, but he was too weak to stand up to the pressure to lockdown from the medical establishment (and people on his own side like Gove) so caved, calculating he (ironically) wouldn't survive politically if he didn't.
I don't think anyone who implements restrictions on freedom of movement (after Brexit) can be considered libertarian. Well, I don't think he's especially authoritarian on this matter either - he just doesn't care either way. Hard Brexit was a route to votes in certain Labour seats, and in that respect, it succeeded.
Likewise, I don't think anyone who can criminalise sitting on your own on a park bench, or with someone in your bubble, drinking coffee (something scarcely likely to spread Covid) can be considered libertarian either. Again, I don't think he has a view either way, but wasn't sufficiently against the harder lockdown laws to refuse to sanction them. Maybe he was indeed weak in this respect, but If he wanted a more middle-of-the-road approach he could have still have sanctioned some form of lockdown, but without the silly, illogical laws against low-risk-activity.
I suspect he might well still survive despite this, partly precisely because he has no respect for such rules and regulations. I think the comments about drink being inappropriate in the workplace in the Gray Report are significant, in terms of being another ratchet turning of the screw with modern puritanism. It is not too many years since workplace drinking was deemed almost normal. Many [non safety related] companies have followed the railway with drugs and alcohol polices as the general culture has shifted.
Do not underestimate the resentment out there against modern technocratic puritanism. It drove Brexit (and Trump in the USA for which there may well be a 2024 sequel) and may well save Boris as people vote for him partly because of how much it will wind up and infuriate the straight laced, stuffed shirt, league of monstrous and pompous experts, their capricious and ever shifting acceptable speech nostrums and their online censorious mob followers who descend on those who sin against such nostrums.
But Brexit, at least in the hard form it has taken so far, is puritan. Making it difficult and bureaucratic to move to another country, or for EU citizens, to the UK, is basically a form of puritanism. "Put up with the country you were born in, and if you want to move somewhere else, don't expect it to be easy".
Similarly, many of his cabinet, Priti Patel being the best example, are, to my mind, the absolute definition of statist, authoritarian puritans.
I know in the Civil War I would have supported the cavaliers, not the puritans. But part of the non-puritan lifestyle I want to enjoy is free movement to and from continental Europe without being restricted to only stay 90 days at a time. I realise this is an EU rule, but it was the UK government who instigated it with their own restrictions on EU immigration, and hardly surprisingly, the EU said "if you're not going to allow free movement, we won't either".
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Putin will be quaking in his (jack)boots! Perhaps Johnson and co will return the billions of roubles 'invested' in property and other ventures by Putin and his cronies so they can find another country to launder it through. A threat from Johnson to Putin is like one from Trump would have been - utterly hollow and sham.
It reminds me of that Monty Python sketch where some silly little man (played by Michael Palin) does a silly dance involving slapping a larger man (John Cleese) with two tiny fish. Whereupon, the larger man whacks the smaller one with a giant fish and he falls in the river.
Guess which one is Johnson and which one is Putin.
For me this is a far simpler matter than many are making out.
I’m ignoring all the extraneous noise about whether drinking in the workplace is right or wrong, whether we should have had the level of restrictions we did (or more or less), etc etc.
I’m ignoring any questions about who might replace him.
I’m ignoring questions around other policies.
I’m looking purely at Johnson’s personal behaviour. The nature of the man. He has repeatedly misled Parliament. He has treated Parliament and the people with utter contempt. His behaviour yesterday with the comments about Savile and drug taking were reprehensible.
Agreed but seems majority of Tory MPs still won't do the right thing and so they will soldier on take a bashing and the local elections which will be called mid terms blues. Then by the time the next GE comes most people will have forgotten and those that haven't will baulk at voting Labour so the opposition vote will get split and he will be back with a reduced majority.
I desperately hope im wrong but all i can do is keep reminding my MP to do the right thing which he won't as he's just another one thats only interested in whats good for him.
I do tend to think restrictions are a bit of a busted flush now. A lot of pro-restriction political capital has been used up by the Omicron saga, and Covid itself is now getting pretty endemic. I’d say the most salient issue is now dealing with the fall-out,
Exactly, and that's why "...but Starmer would have had us locked in our houses without even being able to go to the supermarket!!!" arguments from Johnson and his supporters aren't going to cut it in the post-Covid world. Cost of living rises, some supported by a certain Alexander "Boris" Johnson, might, though.
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As said above I think restrictions are a thing of the past now. Main priority now is a government who won't hurt us financially too much or make swingeing cuts to public services.
Exactly, and that's why "...but Starmer would have had us locked in our houses without even being able to go to the supermarket!!!" arguments from Johnson and his supporters aren't going to cut it in the post-Covid world"
That depends on whether it is a post Covid world by then or whether half of europe along with Nicola and Drakeford are still muzzling their subjects.
On the subject of Nicola, what will do for Starmer in 2024 will be the Vote Starmer Get Nicola meme as it is virtually impossible now for Labour to get a majority while the SNP hold all but one of Labours former Scottish seats so any future Labour government will either formally or informally depend on Nicola to stay in power.
That depends on whether it is a post Covid world by then or whether half of europe along with Nicola and Drakeford are still muzzling their subjects.
On the subject of Nicola, what will do for Starmer in 2024 will be the Vote Starmer Get Nicola meme as it is virtually impossible now for Labour to get a majority while the SNP hold all but one of Labours former Scottish seats so any future Labour government will either formally or informally depend on Nicola to stay in power.
Depends what happens in the next two years regarding the SNP. If the fallout from Covid restrictions, and/or other scandals emerge, that dog the SNP, they could lose votes and in turn seats, which would be picked up in predictions/projections before and/or during the next election campaign. Now you might think that because Labour supported restrictions, why would/should they benefit from an SNP decline on this issue - If the SNP lose votes in seats where Labour were 2nd place last time, even losing votes through abstention or a switch to another party could help Labour in this situation; the same logic applies in seats where the Lib Dems or Tories are the main rival to an SNP seat (not ruling out other parties but I suspect another party as best challenger is very unlikely). All this boils back to our flawed FPTP voting system, which also hugely benefits the SNP in Westminster seats (arguably even more than Labour and Tories benefit).
Elsewhere The Telegraph have revealed the Met are investigating 3 other parties that were held for someone senior in No.10 leaving a key position there, with the PM believed to have attended two of them:
EXC: The Telegraph can reveal tonight details of the three additional alleged parties under investigation by the Met They are leaving events thrown for a snr diplomat in America, a military commander and a snr culture department official
Depends what happens in the next two years regarding the SNP. If the fallout from Covid restrictions, and/or other scandals emerge, that dog the SNP, they could lose votes and in turn seats, which would be picked up in predictions/projections before and/or during the next election campaign. Now you might think that because Labour supported restrictions, why would/should they benefit from an SNP decline on this issue - If the SNP lose votes in seats where Labour were 2nd place last time, even losing votes through abstention or a switch to another party could help Labour in this situation; the same logic applies in seats where the Lib Dems or Tories are the main rival to an SNP seat (not ruling out other parties but I suspect another party as best challenger is very unlikely). All this boils back to our flawed FPTP voting system, which also hugely benefits the SNP in Westminster seats (arguably even more than Labour and Tories benefit).
Labour have been pretty lukewarm on restrictions in Scotland, at least since we got a proper leader up here. On vaccine passports Labour in Scotland has been consistently hostile. The libdems have been even more hostile to restrictions in general
On the subject of Nicola, what will do for Starmer in 2024 will be the Vote Starmer Get Nicola meme as it is virtually impossible now for Labour to get a majority while the SNP hold all but one of Labours former Scottish seats so any future Labour government will either formally or informally depend on Nicola to stay in power.
I don’t think that’s *too* much of an issue, as much of the party is sceptical at best regarding restrictions. Gove is perhaps the exception, but I can’t see him getting it (though Conservative leadership campaigns do have a habit of choosing the least expected candidate). In reality, it’s probably going to be Sunak, which is probably good news from a restriction point of view.
I do tend to think restrictions are a bit of a busted flush now. A lot of pro-restriction political capital has been used up by the Omicron saga, and Covid itself is now getting pretty endemic. I’d say the most salient issue is now dealing with the fall-out, and I’d include Ukraine in this as the cynical view would be that Putin is very much taking the opportunity to do stuff whilst the west is all in a tizzy over Covid.
The worrying thing is none of the potential Johnson replacements are particularly heavy hitters, nor seem particularly talented - this is where we need a Clarke or Portillo figure, and we don’t have it. Lack of leadership talent has been a problem for some time, indeed it’s one reason we ended up with Johnson in the first place. All the main parties have suffered from this since the Cameron / Miliband / Clegg era, these are the most recent I’d regard as reasonably heavy hitters. May to be fair could have been okay in the right circumstances, she had a torrid time of it and this took its toll on her.
Let's just hope it's later ABBA, as we could all do with breaking up with Johnson.
And the obligatory ABBA puns
Well, Knowing Me, Knowing You, When All Is Said And Done Boris' time as leader is Slipping Through his Fingers given he his now Under Attack from all sides, and if it Wasn't For The (party) Nights he might have survived. Methinks The King Has Lost His Crown and he should Move On. Even more sogiven all our Money, Money, Money the PM has wasted.
And things like this are why it is going to be really difficult for the Government. A themed party suggests planning, and certainly does not fit the 'a few colleagues having a drink after work' narrative. I wonder if Boris was there, and if it features in one of the 300 photographs that have been passed onto the police...
And things like this are why it is going to be really difficult for the Government. A themed party suggests planning, and certainly does not fit the 'a few colleagues having a drink after work' narrative. I wonder if Boris was there, and if it features in one of the 300 photographs that have been passed onto the police...
Depends what happens in the next two years regarding the SNP. If the fallout from Covid restrictions, and/or other scandals emerge, that dog the SNP, they could lose votes and in turn seats, which would be picked up in predictions/projections before and/or during the next election campaign. Now you might think that because Labour supported restrictions, why would/should they benefit from an SNP decline on this issue - If the SNP lose votes in seats where Labour were 2nd place last time, even losing votes through abstention or a switch to another party could help Labour in this situation; the same logic applies in seats where the Lib Dems or Tories are the main rival to an SNP seat (not ruling out other parties but I suspect another party as best challenger is very unlikely). All this boils back to our flawed FPTP voting system, which also hugely benefits the SNP in Westminster seats (arguably even more than Labour and Tories benefit).
Also, do many people in the rest of the UK actually care one way or the other about the SNP? As long as there remains freedom of movement and trade to and from Scotland, then would Scottish independence negatively impact upon everywhere else?
If anything, Tories ought to welcome the possibility of the SNP in government as Scottish independence would, long term, mean even more likelihood of the Tories dominating what remains of the UK. (If that happens, God help us in England*, but the opposition to the Tories really would have to work together in that scenario).
Perhaps, by turning a blind eye to Johnson, the Tories are even trying to lose the next election to achieve that long term aim.
(* Wales, and perhaps NI, would of course still be in the UK but as we all know they have their own local legislation)
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Let's just hope it's later ABBA, as we could all do with breaking up with Johnson.
And the obligatory ABBA puns
Well, Knowing Me, Knowing You, When All Is Said And Done Boris' time as leader is Slipping Through his Fingers given he his now Under Attack from all sides, and if it Wasn't For The (party) Nights he might have survived. Methinks The King Has Lost His Crown and he should Move On. Even more sogiven all our Money, Money, Money the PM has wasted.
Not ABBA, but I'm surprised Alexander "Boris" Johnson and the Liberal-Kickers didn't form in 2019 to record "Brexit Mash", celebrating the intended original date of Halloween.
If getting involved in a war saves Johnson, then I don't know what this country is coming to.
But I fail to understand all those people who decided, having been against the Tories in 1981/82, decided to vote Tory in 1983 due to the Falklands war, despite the huge damage caused by Thatcher and her policies earlier in the 80s.
If getting involved in a war saves Johnson, then I don't know what this country is coming to.
But I fail to understand all those people who decided, having been against the Tories in 1981/82, decided to vote Tory in 1983 due to the Falklands war, despite the huge damage caused by Thatcher and her policies earlier in the 80s.
Possibly the same way many people end up in a relationship with a brute of a person - they feel protected, which becomes the overriding priority over everything else. It's something ingrained in human psyche.
Possibly the same way many people end up in a relationship with a brute of a person - they feel protected, which becomes the overriding priority over everything else. It's something ingrained in human psyche.
Exactly, and that's why "...but Starmer would have had us locked in our houses without even being able to go to the supermarket!!!" arguments from Johnson and his supporters aren't going to cut it in the post-Covid world. Cost of living rises, some supported by a certain Alexander "Boris" Johnson, might, though.
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As said above I think restrictions are a thing of the past now. Main priority now is a government who won't hurt us financially too much or make swingeing cuts to public services.
To add to the latter, I'd also like a government which doesn't take advantage of Covid to implement bad stuff. Look no further than TfL for a blatant example of this.
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If getting involved in a war saves Johnson, then I don't know what this country is coming to.
But I fail to understand all those people who decided, having been against the Tories in 1981/82, decided to vote Tory in 1983 due to the Falklands war, despite the huge damage caused by Thatcher and her policies earlier in the 80s.
I'd say a spat with Russia is a bit different to Falklands, not least because it wouldn't involve British territory. Likewise, given the air of instability and unpredictability which has always surrounded Putin, it's a very high stakes game to go interfering with Russia simply as a way of burying bad domestic news. The whole Russia situation is likely already contributing to our domestic inflation situation.
As for Thatcher, it's a matter of debate whether Falklands saved her premiership. Many of Thatcher's policies were quite popular (though a lot of this didn't come until later in the 80s), and of course there was the slight issue that Labour had a hopeless leader for 83.
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