LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[Bald Rick]

LNER are living in fantasy land if they seriously think the treasury will pay for any further service expansions in the current climate. They can run a procurement all they like but they’re wasting their time (and money) doing so as HM Government aren’t going to approve any contracts being signed.

If the new trains / services generate more revenue than they cost to run, then the Treasury will approve it.

It really isn’t the end of the world if people have to change at Leeds, Darlington or Newcastle stations, and the sooner LNER realise this the better. Avanti have realised, why not LNER?

You are making the assumption that it is LNER deciding to run services to these locations.…

 

[Rhydgaled]

It really isn’t the end of the world if people have to change at Leeds, Darlington or Newcastle stations, and the sooner LNER realise this the better. Avanti have realised, why not LNER?

Have Avanti realised? I thought their bid to run the WCML retained the odd services to Wrexham, Blackpool and Bangor and even proposed one to Llandudno?

 

[Bald Rick]

Have Avanti realised? I thought their bid to run the WCML retained the odd services to Wrexham, Blackpool and Bangor and even proposed one to Llandudno?

That was their bid. Things are a bit different now.

Meanwhile, perhaps “LNER“ have learned… no Huddersfield trains in the May 22 timetable according to RTT. (Although there are Q pathed route learners. Bet they don’t happen!)

 

[800001]

That was their bid. Things are a bit different now.

Meanwhile, perhaps “LNER“ have learned… no Huddersfield trains in the May 22 timetable according to RTT. (Although there are Q pathed route learners. Bet they don’t happen!)

Route learning for Huddersfield was scheduled to restart 1/2nd week in January, unit was allocated, but none ran.

And DFT must be fully aware LNER are going through tender process for new trains (decision on who wins is due imminently) and are happy for them to continue.

After all a lot of the work recently done on infrastructure is to enable more services to run.

 

[Bald Rick]

And DFT must be fully aware LNER are going through tender process for new trains (decision on who wins is due imminently) and are happy for them to continue.

oh no doubt they are aware. Who do you think will be taking the decision to buy the trains, or not?

 

[krus_aragon]

Have Avanti realised? I thought their bid to run the WCML retained the odd services to Wrexham, Blackpool and Bangor and even proposed one to Llandudno?

The planned Llandudno one is very much an odd service: one return service a day on Saturdays (and might have been Summer Saturdays only) because they've got a unit spare.

 

[800001]

oh no doubt they are aware. Who do you think will be taking the decision to buy the trains, or not?

yes I know that, that’s why I replied as I did, as some one else questioned why they were still going ahead with the tender.

 

[XAM2175]

LNER are living in fantasy land if they seriously think the treasury will pay for any further service expansions in the current climate. They can run a procurement all they like but they’re wasting their time (and money) doing so as HM Government aren’t going to approve any contracts being signed.

Surely, as LNER is being run by the OLR, there must be at the very least tacit approval from the DfT - especially given how much control the DfT are exerting over non-OLR TOCs.

 

[Bald Rick]

yes I know that, that’s why I replied as I did, as some one else questioned why they were still going ahead with the tender.

Surely, as LNER is being run by the OLR, there must be at the very least tacit approval from the DfT - especially given how much control the DfT are exerting over non-OLR TOCs.

Once you start the tender process, there isn’t another decision point until tender evaluation. May as well find out what the price sticker says - it might be a great deal!

 

[38Cto15E]

Should the Class 91' be running on some Leeds services until May or could they finish earlier? TIA.

 

[DanNCL]

Should the Class 91' be running on some Leeds services until May or could they finish earlier? TIA.

The 91s are safe until at least next year.

 

[47444]

Should the Class 91' be running on some Leeds services until May or could they finish earlier? TIA.

There is no rolling stock ordered to replace them at present, so, unless something unusual, like a major pandemic, happens they should be good for two or three years I would estimate.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Has there been any further development on the announcement of a new livery?

 

[35B]

Given the supposedly dire financial straits the railway is in, why are LNER even tendering for new stock to replace the 225's at the moment. Surely cancelling this for the timebeing would be a relatively painless cost cutting measure !

But what will it cost to retain a non-standard and aging sub-fleet?

 

[yorksrob]

But what will it cost to retain a non-standard and aging sub-fleet?

Well, they've got plenty of locos and carriages to cannibalise.

 

[800001]

The 91s are safe until at least next year.

And certainly needed until Hitachi sort out the crack issue and get there availability back to what it should be.

 

[47827]

Well, they've got plenty of locos and carriages to cannibalise.

A hefty number of coaches scrapped now and a handful of 91s, so only the locos really.

 

[yorksrob]

A hefty number of coaches scrapped now and a handful of 91s, so only the locos really.

Somewhat unwise scrapping so many perhaps.

 

[Failed Unit]

Indeed. It really isn’t the end of the world if people have to change at Leeds, Darlington or Newcastle stations, and the sooner LNER realise this the better. Avanti have realised, why not LNER?

I would love to know how well used the extensions currently are. I’d travelled on all of them pre-pandemic and only the Scottish ones appeared to be well used. Indeed I’ve had the evening services to Bradford and Sunderland entirely to myself before.

The Lincoln ones are reasonably well loaded, it has actually surprised me how many are joining / leaving at Lincoln. Granted the would probably fill a 158, but this is the problem in this case changing at Newark NorthGate is not reliable.

You have a number of connections around the 10 minute Mark, For example 0906 London Kings Cross - Newark arrives 1032, change onto 1039 Newark - Lincoln and arrive 11.06. About the same time journey time as the direct train. But the mainline train arrives at 1040 and you are stuffed into a bus / taxi. People didn't like this and it happened frequently. So they drive to Newark instead (is this a good thing). The direct trains seem to have stopped the people doing this drive. Back in BR days the unit would be held, but now I have seen unit pull off before they have released the doors, but as EMR are so tightly diagramed I understand the impact 5 minutes late of Newark makes.

Are they successful - I can't comment, but they are certainly getting people off the A46. Could they do better, probably if they had decent connections at Lincoln towards Grimsby. Going the other way the failed connections didn't happen as much, but you could have some long waits at Newark for delays off trains coming from Scotland (Again Lincoln tend to start on time, but they have had 90 minutes dead time)

Sunderland and Bradford do have a very frequent local service, same scenario at Leeds or Newcastle and you don't have a minimum 1 hour wait for the next one.

 

[43096]

Somewhat unwise scrapping so many perhaps.

Who is going to pay to have them sat in store "just in case"?

They've been out of service for some time now and no-one has come forward to lease those scrapped so far, so not surprisingly Eversholt have binned them.

 

[yorksrob]

Who is going to pay to have them sat in store "just in case"?

They've been out of service for some time now and no-one has come forward to lease those scrapped so far, so not surprisingly Eversholt have binned them.

I think the idea is more that you retain a couble to cannibalise for spares.

 

[43096]

I think the idea is more that you retain a couble to cannibalise for spares.

There were two or three that were at Wabtec and were robbed for spares. They've since gone for scrap and been replaced by three more that are for the same purpose.

 

[DanNCL]

There were two or three that were at Wabtec and were robbed for spares. They've since gone for scrap and been replaced by three more that are for the same purpose.

That is wrong. There have only ever been three 91s at Wabtec donating parts and those three remain there now. The sole 91 that went for scrap from Wabtec (91132) was not stripped for parts whilst it was there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2022 ==

The Lincoln ones are reasonably well loaded, it has actually surprised me how many are joining / leaving at Lincoln. Granted the would probably fill a 158, but this is the problem in this case changing at Newark NorthGate is not reliable.

You have a number of connections around the 10 minute Mark, For example 0906 London Kings Cross - Newark arrives 1032, change onto 1039 Newark - Lincoln and arrive 11.06. About the same time journey time as the direct train. But the mainline train arrives at 1040 and you are stuffed into a bus / taxi. People didn't like this and it happened frequently. So they drive to Newark instead (is this a good thing). The direct trains seem to have stopped the people doing this drive. Back in BR days the unit would be held, but now I have seen unit pull off before they have released the doors, but as EMR are so tightly diagramed I understand the impact 5 minutes late of Newark makes.

Are they successful - I can't comment, but they are certainly getting people off the A46. Could they do better, probably if they had decent connections at Lincoln towards Grimsby. Going the other way the failed connections didn't happen as much, but you could have some long waits at Newark for delays off trains coming from Scotland (Again Lincoln tend to start on time, but they have had 90 minutes dead time)

Sunderland and Bradford do have a very frequent local service, same scenario at Leeds or Newcastle and you don't have a minimum 1 hour wait for the next one.

I’d forgotten about the Lincoln extensions and indeed you make a very good point about them as they are well loaded.

The extensions I was taking aim at were the Yorkshire ones and Sunderland, which are very lightly used and are basically box ticking exercises.

 

[skyhigh]

That is wrong. There have only ever been three 91s at Wabtec donating parts and those three remain there now. The sole 91 that went for scrap from Wabtec (91132) was not stripped for parts whilst it was there.

I think the comment was regarding Mk4s, not the 91s.

 

[43096]

I think the comment was regarding Mk4s, not the 91s.

Correct!

 

[DanNCL]

I think the comment was regarding Mk4s, not the 91s.

Correct!

My apologies. You are indeed correct about the Mark 4s

 

[Rhydgaled]

But what will it cost to retain a non-standard and aging sub-fleet?

Anything that replaces them is likely to be non-standard since off-wire capability has apparently been specified but LNER are reported to be keen on the self-power mode not being pure diesel. In my view they should keep the IC225s and if they really need more bi-modes then reshuffle the engines arround the 801s to create more 800s (with 801s losing their self-rescue capability as a result, perhaps replaced by batteries) without building any more diesel engines.

 

[35B]

Well, they've got plenty of locos and carriages to cannibalise.

Had

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2022 ==

Anything that replaces them is likely to be non-standard since off-wire capability has apparently been specified but LNER are reported to be keen on the self-power mode not being pure diesel. In my view they should keep the IC225s and if they really need more bi-modes then reshuffle the engines arround the 801s to create more 800s (with 801s losing their self-rescue capability as a result, perhaps replaced by batteries) without building any more diesel engines.

Point taken, but IEPs built with battery power will still be a lot more standard than 91s and Mk4s.

The 91s have now been on the ECML longer than the A4s were...

 

[47444]

It has been a while since any Mk IV stock movements have been reported.

My notes suggest the following:

• In service with LNER
  • BN06: 10309, 11279, 11306, 11406, 12208, 12313, 12406, 12420, 12422, 82208
  • BN08: 10300, 11229, 11309, 11408, 12205, 12328, 12407, 12481, 12485, 82211
  • BN12: 10333, 11284, 11312, 11412, 12212, 12330, 12404, 12426, 12431, 82212
  • BN13: 10313, 11285, 11313, 11413, 12228, 12311, 12424, 12430, 12469, 82213
  • BN15: 10306, 11286, 11315, 11415, 12226, 12309, 12409, 12442, 12515, 82214
  • BN17: 10324, 11288, 11317, 11417, 12223, 12303, 12427, 12432, 12444, 82225
  • BN26: 10311, 11295, 11326, 11426, 12220, 12325, 12429, 12465, 12474, 82223
  • Spare: 12214, 82205
• In service with TfW
  • HD01: 10325, 11323, 12225, 12425, 82226
  • HD02: 10328, 11324, 12219, 12447, 82229
  • HD03: 10312, 11325, 12217, 12446, 82216
• Being prepared for service with TfW
  • ex GC01: 10318, 11319, 12211, 12310, 12434, 82201
  • ex GC02: 10321, 11320, 12224, 12326, 12477, 82200
  • ex GC03: 10330, 11321, 12222, 12323, 12461, 82227
  • ex GC04: 10301, 11322, 12210, 12316, 12452, 82230
  • 11305, 12215, 12304, 12315, 12324, 82220
• Stored, awaiting scrap or other use:
  • Worksop:
    • AJ2J: 10305, 10307, 10326, 10332
    • AD1J: 11282, 11287, 11289, 11298, 11301, 11310, 11314, 11316, 11401, 11404, 11409, 11414
    • AI2J: 12200, 12202, 12203, 12207, 12209, 12216, 12229, 12230, 12231
    • AL2J: 12300, 12305, 12307, 12308, 12319, 12329
    • AC2J: 12405, 12410, 12411, 12414, 12415, 12417, 12419, 12421, 12423, 12436, 12437, 12443, 12445, 12453, 12468, 12480, 12483, 12484, 12486, 12489, 12513, 12514, 12518, 12520, 12526
    • NZ5J: 82204, 82206, 82207, 82209, 82210, 82218, 82224
  • Doncaster:
    • AJ2J: 10315
    • AD1J: 11318, 11416, 11418, 11999
    • AI2J: 12213
    • AL2J: 12312
    • AC2J: 12428, 12433, 12463, 12467, 12533
    • NZ5J: 82215, 82222
  • Long Marston
    • AC2J: 12472, 12534

I suspect that I have missed some scrap moves and/or return to service of additional sets to LNER.

Can anyone help update my list?

Many thanks.

 

[Gordonman]

BN16 has recently entered traffic -

82222 11416 11318 11418 10315 12312 12467 12433 12428 12213