LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[47827]

There aren’t enough bi-modes to do both Lincoln and Carlisle diversions at the same time. There’s just about enough to run one or the other, but not both.

And it can present crewing headaches in this day in age as I'd doubt every member of crew originally allocated to the easier to divert services signs it (plus on a Sunday getting people in, especially in bad weather, is challenging sometimes). If the Aberdeen and Inverness trains were due to run today they would be the ones that were suitable for diversion most easily.

 

[3973EXL]

5Q46 Worksop - Ely actually conveyed a 465.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Overseen on Twitter: Modern Railways reporting that the retained LNER IC225s are due a relivery.

https://twitter.com/Coastway_Will/status/1473078278340632580

 

[mvm03]

Overseen on Twitter: Modern Railways reporting that the retained LNER IC225s are due a relivery.

https://twitter.com/Coastway_Will/status/1473078278340632580

guessing something close to the azuma livery or maybe some kind of heritage livery before there retired?

 

[XCTurbostar]

I've read the Modern Railways article today which suggests something completely different from the current AZUMA livery. There are currently no plans to retire the 225s. As I have said before, their replacements have not been ordered and, judging by the apparent lack of funding due to COVID, they have a future in their present roles.

 

[yorksrob]

It would be nice to have a change from dreary grey/white.

 

[XAM2175]

Overseen on Twitter: Modern Railways reporting that the retained LNER IC225s are due a relivery.

I'm torn between joy (arising from my intense dislike of the VTEC livery) and fear (that they'll come up with something worse)

 

[Rhydgaled]

It would be nice to have a change from dreary grey/white.

I'm torn between joy (arising from my intense dislike of the VTEC livery) and fear (that they'll come up with something worse)

I don't mind the red and white livery on the standard class coaches, apart from the buffet (the red area is too big on that) but I do dislike the odd stripes indicating first class and seriously dislike the standard VTEC livery on the locos/DVTs so hope they'll come up with something nice (leave the celebrity locos alone though please LNER).

 

[Fuzzytop]

I wonder if 91101 and 91114 (and 82205) will keep their existing livery, those being variations on the standard, or themselves get variations of whatever replaces them? I really rather like the current livery, but it is looking tatty now. The livery on the locos/DVTs definitely doesn't suit the LNER logo as well as Virgin.

Would a relivery suggest that there might be a further lease extension beyond 2023/24? It seems a lot of work for something to be retired in two or so years. That and adding a ninth set (per https://www.modernrailways.com/article/lner-takes-more-225s).

 

[xotGD]

Rail blue locos with blue & grey coaching stock.

That would be nice.

 

[Cletus]

I've noticed that 91's have been on the 1025 Bradford FS to Kings Cross service on recent Sunday's.

Realtime Trains | 1025 Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross | 19/12/2021

Real-time train running information for 1025 departure from Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross on 19/12/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is this a permanent change?
We have tickets booked for that service on the 20th February in the standard part of coach K which is based on an 80x. But K appears to be a 1st class carriage on the 91's.

 

[Fuzzytop]

It's in the current timetable long term plan - https://225group.org.uk/operations.

There are Hertford diverts that day though, so I imagine the diagrams may be different.

 

[Cletus]

It's in the current timetable long term plan - https://225group.org.uk/operations.

There are Hertford diverts that day though, so I imagine the diagrams may be different.

Thanks.
Will have to see nearer the time for definite.

 

[DanNCL]

Repaints are due - the VTEC livery was applied with vinyls which means the last time the vehicles were repainted was 2010-2012 when they gained EC Silver. It’ll be interesting to see what the livery will look like, and if it’ll be a painted livery (like all liveries the Mark 4s had carried prior to VTEC) or if it’ll be another full vinyl wrap, in which case the vehicles could theoretically be painted any colour underneath.

 

[Helvellyn]

Repaints are due - the VTEC livery was applied with vinyls which means the last time the vehicles were repainted was 2010-2012 when they gained EC Silver. It’ll be interesting to see what the livery will look like, and if it’ll be a painted livery (like all liveries the Mark 4s had carried prior to VTEC) or if it’ll be another full vinyl wrap, in which case the vehicles could theoretically be painted any colour underneath.

The Azumas are white with vinyl adding the livery details. It wouldn't surprise me if the Mark 4s got white with vinyl details added although the exterior window frames will likely be painted, so a vinyl window band like the Azumas is probably out (their windows are fitted from the inside so no frames to deal with). Plus a different style livery on thr coaches will allow the novelty liveries on the 91s/DVTs to remain in some form.

 

[800001]

Surprises me that they are now planning to do this, after the sets have gone through Wabtec, eg NL16 stored at Worksop for well over a year, now at Neville Hill ready to enter service.
Would of thought when on Wabtec would of been ideal time to do it.

 

[Mollman]

Surprises me that they are now planning to do this, after the sets have gone through Wabtec, eg NL16 stored at Worksop for well over a year, now at Neville Hill ready to enter service.
Would of thought when on Wabtec would of been ideal time to do it.

It appears to be a decision made based on circumstances i.e. replacement of Mk4s will be later than planned. I wouldn't be surprised given the decision to upgrade the ECML rather than HS2 East, rolling stock strategy is having to be re-thought.

 

[Bayum]

Do the 91s ever reach Scotland these days? Noticed 82205 still running around in ‘Flying Scots(wo)man’ with the Saltire but surely it’s pretty moot now with the 91s tending to be get on Yorkshire services as much as possible.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do the 91s ever reach Scotland these days? Noticed 82205 still running around in ‘Flying Scots(wo)man’ with the Saltire but surely it’s pretty moot now with the 91s tending to be get on Yorkshire services as much as possible.

No. According to many previous posts in this thread they shouldn’t even reach Newcastle in normal circumstances. The relevant traincrew no longer sign them.

 

[DanNCL]

Do the 91s ever reach Scotland these days? Noticed 82205 still running around in ‘Flying Scots(wo)man’ with the Saltire but surely it’s pretty moot now with the 91s tending to be get on Yorkshire services as much as possible.

No. According to many previous posts in this thread they shouldn’t even reach Newcastle in normal circumstances. The relevant traincrew no longer sign them.

Last 91 to visit Scotland (if we ignore 91130’s trip on the GBRF tour) was 91105 in September 2020.

Running north of Newcastle in passenger service would be a non starter without crew training as there are no longer any crews that sign both the route and the stock. Newcastle can be reached with crews that still sign Mark 4s, but has been avoided because of two key factors (both of which could be overcome, but LNER have clearly decided they don’t think it’s worth it) which is lack of a thunderbird in Newcastle and the lack of stock familiarity with platform dispatchers at Darlington, Durham and Newcastle.

 

[greyman42]

Last 91 to visit Scotland (if we ignore 91130’s trip on the GBRF tour) was 91105 in September 2020.

Running north of Newcastle in passenger service would be a non starter without crew training as there are no longer any crews that sign both the route and the stock. Newcastle can be reached with crews that still sign Mark 4s, but has been avoided because of two key factors (both of which could be overcome, but LNER have clearly decided they don’t think it’s worth it) which is lack of a thunderbird in Newcastle and the lack of stock familiarity with platform dispatchers at Darlington, Durham and Newcastle.

Platform dispatchers have been dispatching Mark 4 stock at Newcastle, Durham and Darlington for years. Have they forgotten what to do?
What is the difference between dispatching a Mark 4 set and a 8xx set?

 

[59CosG95]

Platform dispatchers have been dispatching Mark 4 stock at Newcastle, Durham and Darlington for years. Have they forgotten what to do?
What is the difference between dispatching a Mark 4 set and a 8xx set?

It's not so much the platform dispatch crews as the staff that go on the train...

 

[DanNCL]

Platform dispatchers have been dispatching Mark 4 stock at Newcastle, Durham and Darlington for years. Have they forgotten what to do?
What is the difference between dispatching a Mark 4 set and a 8xx set?

It's not so much the platform dispatch crews as the staff that go on the train...

The dispatch process is different for 80xs. On an 80x the doors are opened by the driver, closed by the TM, and then whilst the TM is keyed in to the door panel the orange lights on the side of that carriage will flash. The other stock they primarily dispatch are voyagers for XC which use 10 bell dispatch (driver controlled, but guard instructs driver to close the doors when clear).
There is however still one small fleet serving all of those stations North of York that does have the same dispatch procedure as the Mark 4 sets, and that is XC’s sliding door HSTs. The guard is in control of everything on those, and as with the Mark 4 sets is capable of observing the dispatch through a droplight window (TGS on a HST, DVT on a Mark 4 set). I am amazed that familiarity with dispatching those isn’t considered good enough to dispatch Mark 4s.

Train crew knowledge would only prevent running North of Newcastle, as opposed to North of York. Although Newcastle based crews no longer sign Mark 4s, there are both drivers and train managers that sign both Mark 4s and the route to Newcastle, as Leeds, Doncaster and Kings Cross crews sign up there. It would be no more difficult to find crew that sign both Mark 4s and Newcastle as it was to find crews to take 90s there a few years ago, if anything easier in fact as only Kings Cross signed the 90s.

The final issue regularly given is the lack of a thunderbird. Although it would make things a lot easier if a 91 were to sit down North of York, it’s not essential to the operation of the sets and the sets can run without a Thunderbird being located anywhere nearby.

Ultimately its self imposed inflexibility on LNER’s part that prevents the Mark 4s from running North of York - none of the three issues are unresolvable, they just cost money and time that LNER would rather spend on talking info screens on concourses that hardly anyone uses.

 

[dereksingh291]

It be nice to see an Intercity 225 set be repainted into an Intercity livery.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It be nice to see an Intercity 225 set be repainted into an Intercity livery.

Honestly, TOCs need to stop bowing to enthusiast’s wishes and spending so much time and money on such things - they’ve already done the power car and wasted money on a full HST set that did one trip. Hopefully it will be a modern application of a new variant of LNER livery that will help bring the extremely tired looking (particularly the DVT) units into the decade.

 

[skyhigh]

The dispatch process is different for 80xs.

The vast majority of the difference is on the guard side though, rather than platform staff.

 

[DanNCL]

It be nice to see an Intercity 225 set be repainted into an Intercity livery.

It would be nice. Not going to happen until if/when a full set makes it into preservation though.

Honestly, TOCs need to stop bowing to enthusiast’s wishes and spending so much time and money on such things - they’ve already done the power car and wasted money on a full HST set that did one trip. Hopefully it will be a modern application of a new variant of LNER livery that will help bring the extremely tired looking (particularly the DVT) units into the decade.

Indeed. LNER often don't make the wisest financial decisions (as you mention the HST repaint, as well as some of the "innovations" that have popped up at various stations only to dissappear fairly quickly) but even they aren't going to spend money on repainting a full Mark 4 set into Intercity Swallow, plus adjusting the doors to make them compliant with modern regulations requiring colour contrast. 91119 (it's a loco not a power car thank you ) is already in Intercity Swallow, that's more than sufficient for a retro livery in a frontline passenger fleet.

The vast majority of the difference is on the guard side though, rather than platform staff.

There is one very noteable difference from the platform staff side in that the 80xs have a flashing orange light on the carriage that the TM is in whilst keyed in to the door panel, which enables the platform staff to easily identify where the TM is - Mark 4s don't have that.

 

[800001]

The dispatch process is different for 80xs. On an 80x the doors are opened by the driver, closed by the TM, and then whilst the TM is keyed in to the door panel the orange lights on the side of that carriage will flash. The other stock they primarily dispatch are voyagers for XC which use 10 bell dispatch (driver controlled, but guard instructs driver to close the doors when clear).
There is however still one small fleet serving all of those stations North of York that does have the same dispatch procedure as the Mark 4 sets, and that is XC’s sliding door HSTs. The guard is in control of everything on those, and as with the Mark 4 sets is capable of observing the dispatch through a droplight window (TGS on a HST, DVT on a Mark 4 set). I am amazed that familiarity with dispatching those isn’t considered good enough to dispatch Mark 4s.

Train crew knowledge would only prevent running North of Newcastle, as opposed to North of York. Although Newcastle based crews no longer sign Mark 4s, there are both drivers and train managers that sign both Mark 4s and the route to Newcastle, as Leeds, Doncaster and Kings Cross crews sign up there. It would be no more difficult to find crew that sign both Mark 4s and Newcastle as it was to find crews to take 90s there a few years ago, if anything easier in fact as only Kings Cross signed the 90s.

The final issue regularly given is the lack of a thunderbird. Although it would make things a lot easier if a 91 were to sit down North of York, it’s not essential to the operation of the sets and the sets can run without a Thunderbird being located anywhere nearby.

Ultimately its self imposed inflexibility on LNER’s part that prevents the Mark 4s from running North of York - none of the three issues are unresolvable, they just cost money and time that LNER would rather spend on talking info screens on concourses that hardly anyone uses.

Where is the talking screens?

And it is DFT who controls every single penny spent, so Hiring a thunderbird, keep up the drivers competency to drive one, and also rostering 2 drivers every day to cover it, will all be scrutinised by them. Lner can not so much as order a poster without someone at Dft signing off the cost.

Keeping MK4s to Leeds/York services is sensible.

 

[DanNCL]

Where is the talking screens?

And it is DFT who controls every single penny spent, so Hiring a thunderbird, keep up the drivers competency to drive one, and also rostering 2 drivers every day to cover it, will all be scrutinised by them. Lner can not so much as order a poster without someone at Dft signing off the cost.

Keeping MK4s to Leeds/York services is sensible.

Newcastle. There were two, one located next to the information desk which has now gone, and another in the station portico that's still there, or at least it was when I was last there on Friday. It's not the only "innovation" that's popped up from LNER at Newcastle station over the last 12 months although it's the only one remaining.

The DFT did not mandate the removal of Mark 4 sets from workings north of York, that was a decision taken entirely by LNER. The DFT do have a far greater role than they should in the operation of LNER (and every TOC for that matter that isn't open access), but their level of control does not go to such an extreme level that they mandate which crews can sign what stock, not that it mattered for the example I gave anyway, as I was simply responding to another poster on whether there were any crews that signed both the sets and to Newcastle (to which the answer is yes), not if Newcastle based crews sign them (to which the answer is no).

I recognise it may come across otherwise but I'm not actually trying to suggest actively diagramming Mark 4 sets to/from Newcastle, simply saying that the self imposed inflexibility on the matter was a short sighted decision and will not help matters a) should disruption leave a choice between running a Mark 4 set or nothing/5 car short form (I'm aware that's not officially happened yet, but it could very feasibly happen), and b) with customers increasingly becoming frustrated with the poor value for money LNER offer in comparision with their two main competitors on the London - Newcastle/Edinburgh markets (Lumo and the airlines), if Mark 4 sets had been retained North of York on select diagrams (perhaps strategically timed to be just ahead/just behind a Lumo service) LNER would've had a more competitive edge on the route than they have now. In hindsight the better decision would have been to keep the sets on the Edinburgh route, but the damage is done now and with crew knowledge lapsed wouldn't be feasible to undo.

 

[swt_passenger]

If they’d followed the 2016 ECML track access application the Mk4 sets would have been shortened by now and limited to Edinburgh fast services. I suppose if that had actually happened there’d be regular questions about why they never showed up on Leeds services…