Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Roast Veg]

So now your saving is down to about 2.3 minuites.

More than I was expecting actually.

 

[plugwash]

I suspect it would be lower in practice because while trains can accelerate at 1 meter per second per second at the lower end of the speed range I don't think many can sustain that up to 250MPH.

 

[IanXC]

You might get away with just four tracking from Cross Gates onwards, as long as you keep slower DMUs off of the Hull trains.

Unfortunately its Marsh Lane to Crossgates which is probably the easiest section to four track!

DMUs going to Hull is a major outstanding question for me, even with some four tracking, stopping services going that way will still have to mix it with the expresses, how that is made to work is a bit problematic, unless/until electrification to Selby/Hull is authorised.

 

[Bayum]

What’s the update on Leeds - Church Fenton electrification? Not happening?

 

[snowball]

What’s the update on Leeds - Church Fenton electrification? Not happening?

Eventually but we don't know when.

 

[takno]

Not much.

8 miles at 100 MPH, is 4.8 minutes, at 250MPH it's 1.92 minuites, so even with trains that could accelerate instantly you would be saving less than 3 minuites.

If we assume an acceleratoin/decelleration rate 1 meter per second per second (I don't know what the acceleration profile of the HS2 stock is planned to be but I suspect at the top end of the speed range it will be less than this) it will take over a minuite for a train to reach that speed. So ballparking you would have

1 minuite of accelerating operation with an average speed of around 175MPH covering about 3 miles.
2 miles at full speed taking about half a minuite.
1 minuite of decelerating operation with an average speed of around 175MPH covering about 3 miles.

So now your saving is down to about 2.3 minuites.

I'm assuming the main time saving is 5 minutes of not being stuck behind a stopper. Admittedly it doesn't need to be a 250mph line for that

 

[Mollman]

Unfortunately its Marsh Lane to Crossgates which is probably the easiest section to four track!

DMUs going to Hull is a major outstanding question for me, even with some four tracking, stopping services going that way will still have to mix it with the expresses, how that is made to work is a bit problematic, unless/until electrification to Selby/Hull is authorised.

Crossgates to Thorpe Park / M1 should be easy to do as it has passive provision for 4-tracking (as long as the new bridge at Thorpe Park does!). It is more difficult when you get to Garforth as there is no room for 4 track and East Garforth station is built on the space for the slow lines

I'm assuming the main time saving is 5 minutes of not being stuck behind a stopper. Admittedly it doesn't need to be a 250mph line for that

The HS2 route would also allow the speed and capacity restrictions of Micklefield Jnc to be avoided

 

[matacaster]

Just been looking at proposed Huddersfield station improvements. NR document says through platforms will cater for 8 coach trains. How will it cater for HS2 trains which surely will be longer (unless only half a train goes forward to Leeds)? Wouldn't it be a spiffing idea to make Huddersfield cater for full length HS2 trains rather than remodel again later?.... Or is there a cunning plan Baldrick?

 

[59CosG95]

Just been looking at proposed Huddersfield station improvements. NR document says through platforms will cater for 8 coach trains. How will it cater for HS2 trains which surely will be longer (unless only half a train goes forward to Leeds)? Wouldn't it be a spiffing idea to make Huddersfield cater for full length HS2 trains rather than remodel again later?.... Or is there a cunning plan Baldrick?

If these were the plans on NR's site, they were unleashed prior to the scaling back of NPR. Any additional NPR enhancements (if there even are any) would have to be in a separate doc.

 

[themiller]

Just been looking at proposed Huddersfield station improvements. NR document says through platforms will cater for 8 coach trains. How will it cater for HS2 trains which surely will be longer (unless only half a train goes forward to Leeds)? Wouldn't it be a spiffing idea to make Huddersfield cater for full length HS2 trains rather than remodel again later?.... Or is there a cunning plan Baldrick?

Carlisle is currently receiving a platform upgrade. Although it requires P1&3 lengthening and P2 filling in to be replaced by P0, this will come from a separate pot of money so current work will have to be partly undone for HS2 works. Delaying the HS2 work will save money in this year’s budget which is all the treasury is concerned about.

 

[quantinghome]

Just been looking at proposed Huddersfield station improvements. NR document says through platforms will cater for 8 coach trains. How will it cater for HS2 trains which surely will be longer (unless only half a train goes forward to Leeds)? Wouldn't it be a spiffing idea to make Huddersfield cater for full length HS2 trains rather than remodel again later?.... Or is there a cunning plan Baldrick?

According to the IRP only the Birmingham-Manchester trains would continue on to Huddersfield and Leeds, and I believe those are planned to be 200m long. But it would become complicated if they were to be expanded in the future.

 

[matacaster]

According to the IRP only the Birmingham-Manchester trains would continue on to Huddersfield and Leeds, and I believe those are planned to be 200m long. But it would become complicated if they were to be expanded in the future.

Ah, thanks!

 

[Bald Rick]

Just been looking at proposed Huddersfield station improvements. NR document says through platforms will cater for 8 coach trains. How will it cater for HS2 trains which surely will be longer (unless only half a train goes forward to Leeds)? Wouldn't it be a spiffing idea to make Huddersfield cater for full length HS2 trains rather than remodel again later?.... Or is there a cunning plan Baldrick?

You won’t be seeing 400m passenger services across the Pennines.

 

[plugwash]

Do we know what the actual usable train length of the platforms will be, afaict "8 car" could be anything from 160m to 208m.

 

[Glenn1969]

You won’t be seeing 400m passenger services across the Pennines.

Do we know what the actual usable train length of the platforms will be, afaict "8 car" could be anything from 160m to 208m

Do we know how they plan to path additional trains on the 2 track section east of Westtown? One of the reasons I was in favour of new build all the way to Leeds is I didn't think there was space for additional trains on the route through Batley and Morley and at Leeds itself

 

[Bald Rick]

Do we know what the actual usable train length of the platforms will be, afaict "8 car" could be anything from 160m to 208m.

From the drawings in the TWAO application they appear to be 200m long (or very nearly).

Do we know how they plan to path additional trains on the 2 track section east of Westtown? One of the reasons I was in favour of new build all the way to Leeds is I didn't think there was space for additional trains on the route through Batley and Morley and at Leeds itself

Way too soon to be planning the detail. But it’s quite simple - with electric trains and some linespeed improvements the stoppers will take about 17 minutes Leeds - Ravensthorpe. Possibly less. A non stop train will do the same in 9 mins; one that stops at Dewsbury about 12 minutes. In theory, that provides capacity for 14 trains an hour each way including 2 stoppers at 3 minute headways (each stopper takes four paths).

 

[Watershed]

including 2 stoppers at 3 minute headways

A 3 minute headway seems somewhat 'ambitious', at least through Morley tunnel.

 

[Bald Rick]

A 3 minute headway seems somewhat 'ambitious', at least through Morley tunnel.

ETCS is coming...

 

[Glenn1969]

ETCS is coming...

The journey time you quoted is only 2 minutes quicker than some of the current stoppers. Can they stay ahead of additional fast services, especially through the tunnel? The original TRU plan involved major work at both Batley and Morley for realignment- has the IRP abandoned this idea?

 

[Watershed]

ETCS is coming...

At current linespeed (75mph), Morley's 3080m length take 92 seconds to traverse. 98s if you allow 200m for train length.

So unless I'm missing something, even with ETCS that's going to be exceptionally tight for a 180s planning headway...

 

[Bald Rick]

The journey time you quoted is only 2 minutes quicker than some of the current stoppers. Can they stay ahead of additional fast services, especially through the tunnel? The original TRU plan involved major work at both Batley and Morley for realignment- has the IRP abandoned this idea?

The times quoted are my educated guess, but won’t be far wrong. TRU work carries on (I assume!) but realignment doesn’t give that much, and certainly not for trains that are stopping, obviously, as they can’t make so much use of the higher speeds. And as I said, 17 mins for fast, 12 for Dewsbury only, 9 for fast - it’s 14 tph. Which isn’t needed, so there is some space on the graph, on that section a two least. But not further west when the trains from Healy Mills come in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2021 ==

At current linespeed (75mph), Morley's 3080m length take 92 seconds to traverse. 98s if you allow 200m for train length.

So unless I'm missing something, even with ETCS that's going to be exceptionally tight for a 180s planning headway...

I’m sure they’ll be a way

 

[edwin_m]

At current linespeed (75mph), Morley's 3080m length take 92 seconds to traverse. 98s if you allow 200m for train length.

So unless I'm missing something, even with ETCS that's going to be exceptionally tight for a 180s planning headway...

Because it's roughly at the midpoint of the two-track section, the fast and slower trains will be further apart here (the slow will have fallen back from the fast it left just behind but won't yet have the next fast catching up with it). So the headway before and after the slows, which are the ones that will take more than 92s, can be more than 3min.

 

[Watershed]

Because it's roughly at the midpoint of the two-track section, the fast and slower trains will be further apart here (the slow will have fallen back from the fast it left just behind but won't yet have the next fast catching up with it). So the headway before and after the slows, which are the ones that will take more than 92s, can be more than 3min.

True, I was just challenging @Bald Rick on the assertion of a 3 minute headway!

 

[edwin_m]

True, I was just challenging @Bald Rick on the assertion of a 3 minute headway!

It might be that the TPR shows a longer headway around Morley.

One example of this effect is the CLC route. It's well known that the slows and the fasts are close together at the Manchester and Liverpool ends, and this makes the route as a whole close to capacity, but the middle part has some fairly desultory signalling with long planning headways.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because it's roughly at the midpoint of the two-track section, the fast and slower trains will be further apart here (the slow will have fallen back from the fast it left just behind but won't yet have the next fast catching up with it). So the headway before and after the slows, which are the ones that will take more than 92s, can be more than 3min.

It’s currently a 2 main headway departing Leeds, 2.5 at Dewsbury, but 4.5 at Morley. However, that can be changed...

 

[quantinghome]

Way too soon to be planning the detail. But it’s quite simple - with electric trains and some linespeed improvements the stoppers will take about 17 minutes Leeds - Ravensthorpe. Possibly less. A non stop train will do the same in 9 mins; one that stops at Dewsbury about 12 minutes. In theory, that provides capacity for 14 trains an hour each way including 2 stoppers at 3 minute headways (each stopper takes four paths).

2 stoppers an hour is what we have now isn't it? So there will be no increase in local services, certainly no chance of having a local metro-frequency service, unless you want to drastically reduce the number of fast services. The IRP is quoting 8 fast services an hour Manchester-Leeds, so that appears to be it.

Also this would produce a highly flighted timetable, with a rush of fast trains every few minutes, followed by a 15 minute gap for the slow service, then the next rush, etc.

 

[xotGD]

2 stoppers an hour is what we have now isn't it?

No, there is just an hourly Leeds to Huddersfield all shacks. That's all that the new White Rose station is due to get.

 

[Starmill]

Eventually but we don't know when.

Surely we can say something slightly more meaningful than that? Figure 9 in the Integrated Rail Plan (pp. 134 - 135) shows Leeds to York electrification to start between 2030 and 2035.

 

[Bald Rick]

2 stoppers an hour is what we have now isn't it? So there will be no increase in local services, certainly no chance of having a local metro-frequency service, unless you want to drastically reduce the number of fast services. The IRP is quoting 8 fast services an hour Manchester-Leeds, so that appears to be it.

Also this would produce a highly flighted timetable, with a rush of fast trains every few minutes, followed by a 15 minute gap for the slow service, then the next rush, etc.

AIUI the Transpennine Upgrade output is for 2 stoppers an hour on that section.
and there are now 2 an hour - 1 to Huddersfield, and 1 to Wigan via Halifax.

yes there would be flighting,

 

[D6130]

and 1 to Wigan via Halifax.

.....via Dewsbury and Brighouse, but not Halifax!