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How could reliability of the Airedale and Wharfedale lines be improved?

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YorksLad12

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You can add in the issue of future-proofing to accommodate services that will use re-opened lines.

Regarding Kirkstall Forge, if the line through there is four-tracked, it will most likely be arranged as Up-Wharfedale, Down-Wharfedale, Up-Airedale & Down-Airedale, rather than Up-slow, Up-fast, Down-fast & Down-slow, making it a bit of a pain to include passing loops, unless the station could have been built like Brent Cross (Thameslink) with Island platforms.
Good point about line pairing, Wiki says that's how it was in the past. But if you did it now you'd have to four-track throughout as far as Apperley Bridge to keep the separation, whereas I was only talking about a mile or so either side of Kirkstall Forge (depending on how much you'd need). All moot, anyway ;)
 
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xotGD

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Currently there are more trains (and more capacity) between Shipley and Bradford than between Shipley and Leeds. The inverse of passenger demand.
 

tbtc

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It's a tricky one

On the one hand, for a lot of journeys, it works as a simple half hourly service pattern (without necessarily being much use as a combined ten/fifteen minute frequency) - there probably aren't any additional paths into Leeds or scope for grade separation or to do anything about the three single track sections (the Bradford - Keighley curve at Shipley, the line from Shipley to Guisley and the line from Apperley towards Guisley) - so there's not much you can do which would be "radical" (other than debating whether it'd be more efficient to interwork services or try to have stand alone ones, which may be more reliable but would mean additional stock and longer occupation of platforms at Leeds etc - mind you stand alone diagrams would allow more focus to be given to the busiest bits of line)

I think that the "biggest" priority I'd aim for, if trying to tackle things would be the Leeds - Keighley market, given that this seems to be the busiest bit of line (certainly a lot busier than my experience of Leeds - Bradford services or Bradford - Keighley services). It seems a shame that connections at Shipley don't allow many passengers to change from a Skipton - Bradford service onto a Bradford - Leeds service, since that would take some pressure of the Skipton - Leeds services (or at least connections were poor last time I was at Shipley - apologies if this has all changed during Covid, it's hard to keep up sometimes!). But even if you could flight services so that the Leeds - Bradford service was just behind the Leeds - Skipton service, so that it arrived in Shipley before the Bradford - Skipton train, you might have to add on quite a few minutes to allow people to get over the bridge, in which case it might not be competitive enough to entice many people off the direct trains

The idea that I couldn't get to work was a half hourly "fast" Leeds - Skipton service which would be mainly EMU operated but would include the Carlisle/ Lancaster trains as well as potentially some five car extensions of London - Leeds services (in line with the Harrogate extensions of similar trains - a "London" train should be stopping at similar intermediate stations to the Carlisle/ Lancaster trains) - but I don't think there's space for such a service - which means we are in the awkward position of the Carlisle/ Lancaster trains being short 75mph/90mph DMUs taking up scarce paths outside of the clock face half hourly pattern - you could insist that they are combined into a single bi-hourly path between Hellifield and Leeds but would that make it less reliable? I don't think it'd be acceptable to cut them all at Skipton, but otherwise you're forcing passengers from Bingley etc onto the short DMUs - unless you make the long distance trains non-stop south of Skipton but that would have similar problems.

You could theoretically make Leeds - Skipton a fifteen minute EMU service, by removing the services from Leeds to Bradford and Bradford to Skipton and replacing them with additional Leeds - Skipton services, but that certainly wouldn't go down well! Yet how else do you focus on the busiest flow without cutting something else?
 

JRT

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Re: above

Skipton – Shipley ar 01 dep 08 – Leeds
As I mentioned above, many pax use this route.

However, in the other direction:
Leeds – Shipley ar 27 dep 48 – Skipton
 

Starmill

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Remove the DMU timings and operate a third faster Skipton service in every hour. You might eve be able to cut a few minutes off the journey times.
 

Neptune

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The biggest constraints on the Leeds NW triangle are really the signalling and the single line sections. These would be the first areas to look at with a preference for 4 aspect between Leeds and Skipton and shorter 3 aspect sections on the Ilkley line.

The single track sections cause the biggest problems on the Apperley to Springs section. Esholt to Dockfield seems to work ok and platform 5 at Shipley is fine as there is no way 2 trains can pass on that short curve.

6 car services operating on contained diagrams would be my preference incorporating Leeds - Skipton - Leeds - Bradford - Leeds - Ilkley - Leeds and repeat with 4 car units working Bradford - Skipton - Bradford - Ilkley - Bradford and repeat.

The Carlisle/Lancaster services would be better on a single semi fast path each hour (eg xx48 ex Leeds and xx58 ex Skipton) alternating on each route north of Skipton a 2 hourly service on each.

Never forget that all you crayonista timetablers out there need to factor in the Harrogate line paths at Leeds which does seem to be oft forgotten.
 

xotGD

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You could theoretically make Leeds - Skipton a fifteen minute EMU service, by removing the services from Leeds to Bradford and Bradford to Skipton and replacing them with additional Leeds - Skipton services, but that certainly wouldn't go down well! Yet how else do you focus on the busiest flow without cutting something else?
That's my proposal!

Yes, it would inconvenience Airedale to Bradford passengers, but it would be for the greater good.
 

30907

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The diesels connect with other trains later on so have to run at that time.
If that's critical (it may be, at least the pathing at Carnforth) then you would have to shift the whole timetable by about 15 minutes... at least it's self-contained apart from the Harrogates.
Paths are also used for goods trains so can't run every half hour.
How did I forget that, having sat at Dockfield for 20min last week while a freight was waiting the road in Shipley P2?
But there are potentially 4 fast/freight and 4 stopping paths ph up to Skipton.
 

47434

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Currently there are more trains (and more capacity) between Shipley and Bradford than between Shipley and Leeds. The inverse of passenger demand.
It is a bit like comparing apples with pears though as the Skipton and Ilkley's don't have an option but to pass through Shipley. The Bradford to Leeds are essentially the stoppers for Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That's my proposal!

Yes, it would inconvenience Airedale to Bradford passengers, but it would be for the greater good.
Is there enough capacity between Armley Jct and Apperley Jct to achieve 6 tph in each direction before the semi-fasts and freights are factored in? I am not convinced that in the post-Covid world there is demand for a 15 min service to SKI
 

Neptune

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Is there enough capacity between Armley Jct and Apperley Jct to achieve 6 tph in each direction before the semi-fasts and freights are factored in? I am not convinced that in the post-Covid world there is demand for a 15 min service to SKI
Capacity is better utilised with longer trains (as is the plan in this case) rather than more trains.
 

YorksLad12

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6 car services operating on contained diagrams would be my preference incorporating Leeds - Skipton - Leeds - Bradford - Leeds - Ilkley - Leeds and repeat with 4 car units working Bradford - Skipton - Bradford - Ilkley - Bradford and repeat.
Interesting point, in that you'd have 12 cars per hour instead of the current eight. Using the 333s and adding a third service would give you... 12 cars per hour.
The Carlisle/Lancaster services would be better on a single semi fast path each hour (eg xx48 ex Leeds and xx58 ex Skipton) alternating on each route north of Skipton a 2 hourly service on each.
I'd suggest running non-stop from Leeds to Skipton but I doubt the timings work out. And then there's all the Bradfordians who want a stop at Shipley... ;)
Never forget that all you crayonista timetablers out there need to factor in the Harrogate line paths at Leeds which does seem to be oft forgotten.
I didn't, and did, upthread. Does that mean I have to hand my crayons back??

Capacity is better utilised with longer trains (as is the plan in this case) rather than more trains.
True - but the 2043 study referred to upthread mentions a third service per hour. Personally, I think a nice, regular, half-hour service on all routes works for me, is easy to understand and has a lot going for it. Whether that is a four car or 2xthree service, that's up for grabs.
 

Neptune

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Interesting point, in that you'd have 12 cars per hour instead of the current eight. Using the 333s and adding a third service would give you... 12 cars per hour.
Yes same seating capacity, more robust solution.
I'd suggest running non-stop from Leeds to Skipton but I doubt the timings work out. And then there's all the Bradfordians who want a stop at Shipley... ;)
Non starter as they’d just catch up the preceding stopper so little benefit timewise
I didn't, and did, upthread. Does that mean I have to hand my crayons back??
The Harrogate line is easy to forget as it is such a short part of the triangle equation, but also the most critical part.
True - but the 2043 study referred to upthread mentions a third service per hour. Personally, I think a nice, regular, half-hour service on all routes works for me, is easy to understand and has a lot going for it. Whether that is a four car or 2xthree service, that's up for grabs.
3tph to me is more a visible uplift and a better news story even if the capacity is the same as 2tph. Better to stay robust for me.
 

Halifaxlad

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- Get rid of Leeds - Bradford and Bradford - Skipton

I certainly wouldn't get rid of Leeds - Bradford but I have previously thought about Bradford - Skipton.

I wonder if its worth getting rid of platform 5 ?

How’s this for a more ambitious idea
- Add a Leeds to Keighley service (reversing in a turnback), calling at all stations except for Kirkstall Forge due to capacity constraints.

Wasn't there plans for a turnback many years ago at Keighley ?

Although I reckon any turnback should really be between the lines somewhere North of the station.

Starting/terminating at Keighley and accelerating the existing Leeds to Skipton means that flows into Leeds from various places can be separated out and also avoids the various capacity problems beyond Keighley, such as platform space and conflicts at Skipton & having the two level crossings’ barriers down for extended periods of time.

Here’s another question; Could Skipton to Ilkley realistically reopen with the business case of re-routing freight trains that way to avoid the conflicts in the Shipley area, as well as trains from beyond Skipton if the SELRAP route reopens with frequent trains to Leeds which cannot be accommodated on the Airedale line?

Good point about the crossings I don't often go all the way to Skipton so I tend to forget there are two crossings up there, although I do occasionally read about them in the news for one reason or another.

I suppose a new route could be built around Addingham and adjacent to the A65 but the biggest problem is getting into Ikley as there are a few houses on the old route immediately West of Ikley station, probably best going under Ikley but that as we all know would require some serious investment.
 

Grumpy

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Is there a problem with the reliability of these lines? Seem to run OK whenever I use them
 

Neptune

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Is there a problem with the reliability of these lines? Seem to run OK whenever I use them
No not really. I not only live on the route but work on it too and it’s one of the more reliable routes. There’s pinchpoints but the same applies on most routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I certainly wouldn't get rid of Leeds - Bradford but I have previously thought about Bradford - Skipton.

I wonder if its worth getting rid of platform 5 ?
Is this a serious suggestion?
 
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Neptune

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Which is a fraction of the Airedale to Leeds numbers.
Absolutely but cutting the Bradford to Airedale service would be ridiculous. I’ve always said that Ilkley/Skipton - Bradford should be hourly outside the peaks.
 

Halifaxlad

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Wait up folks I was only semi-suggesting getting rid of the platform not any services!

Shipley would still be served by Leeds - BFS and BFS - Skipton services!
 

zwk500

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Wait up folks I was only semi-suggesting getting rid of the platform not any services!

Shipley would still be served by Leeds - BFS and BFS - Skipton services!
How do you run Bradford-Skipton serving Shipley without the platform on that side of the triangle?
 

zwk500

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Why do you have to have the Bradford - Skipton service stopping at Shipley when it already has a Leeds - Skipton service ?
Because, to quote you:
Shipley would still be served by Leeds - BFS and BFS - Skipton services!
Unless I've misunderstood BFS as Bradford Forster Square when you actually meant something completely different?
 

Neptune

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Why do you have to have the Bradford - Skipton service stopping at Shipley when it already has a Leeds - Skipton service ?
You haven’t explained the benefits that you believe this idea would bring.

I think we’re all waiting to hear why not stopping a service that passes through a busy junction station at 10mph, central to the routes that it serves as a connection to other services as well as a destination in its own right would be a good idea.

Would you remove platform 5 altogether?

Would it improve the timings and reliability of the whole NW triangle network?

How would you compensate for halving the connection opportunities between the Airedale and Wharfedale lines?
 

Bigman

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I would reinstate a third bi-directional track between Rodley and Dockfield Jcn using the redundant alignment and Thackley Tunnel. This would help with getting freight off the mainline and may help with pathing (I hope).
 

JKF

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No chance of Armley Canal Rd reopening at any point? Having spoken to councillors years back the message always was that Canal Rd was the most likely to reappear rather than the more centrally located former station on the New Pudsey line. I don’t hold out much hope for either, as I suspect the fairly decent bus service is probably considered adequate, even if some evenings it’s quicker to walk along Wellington St. There is scope for housing development on industrial land around both station sites that could improve the case.
 

Bigman

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No chance of Armley Canal Rd reopening at any point? Having spoken to councillors years back the message always was that Canal Rd was the most likely to reappear rather than the more centrally located former station on the New Pudsey line. I don’t hold out much hope for either, as I suspect the fairly decent bus service is probably considered adequate, even if some evenings it’s quicker to walk along Wellington St. There is scope for housing development on industrial land around both station sites that could improve the case.
Armley Moor on the Bradford line would be better. The old derelict factory next to is needs flattening in any case. Plus, the No 4 and 16 buses are shocking. A new park-and-ride at High Royds woulnd't go amiss. Traffic through Guiseley is horrendous.
 

Neptune

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No chance of Armley Canal Rd reopening at any point? Having spoken to councillors years back the message always was that Canal Rd was the most likely to reappear rather than the more centrally located former station on the New Pudsey line. I don’t hold out much hope for either, as I suspect the fairly decent bus service is probably considered adequate, even if some evenings it’s quicker to walk along Wellington St. There is scope for housing development on industrial land around both station sites that could improve the case.
If Canal Road reopened it would definitely require a recast of services as it would only make sense on the Forster Square service which gets caught up by the xx18 or xx48 semi fast as it is.
 
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