GWR ask passengers to arrive 15 mins before departure

[43066]

This particular response looks like it might have been created by splicing together two standard ‘lines to take’: one dealing with the recommended time to arrive before departure and the other intended to respond to comments about ‘doors locked before departure time’.

I think that’s exactly what has happened

I press 'doors close' at T-12 seconds, get interlock, check the monitors, check the signal, and wheels move on the dot.
Up to 1 minute with all the bat waving and ding ding station staff and guard stuff isn't unrealistic, but anything longer is just a bum-covering, inefficient, lazy, customer-unfriendly way to meet targets and shouldn't be allowed.

I used to find 30 seconds was about right to start the DOO dispatch procedure (check signal, hit door close, check interlock, check each monitor, check signal, final check of the monitors, take power) to get the wheels rolling about bang on departure time.

Leaving late (unless unavoidable) is more customer unfriendly to those who have boarded the train in good time.

 

[Class83]

15 minutes?!

Even 2 minutes is utterly ridiculous.


I press 'doors close' at T-12 seconds, get interlock, check the monitors, check the signal, and wheels move on the dot.
Up to 1 minute with all the bat waving and ding ding station staff and guard stuff isn't unrealistic, but anything longer is just a bum-covering, inefficient, lazy, customer-unfriendly way to meet targets and shouldn't be allowed.

Indeed, not sure what stock you're operating, but it should be reasonably straightforward to work out that timing for any type of train. Even on 390s I don't thing the button press to ready time can be more than 20 seconds, add 10 seconds of whistling. I have once been stood next to a static Voyager for some time discussing with the dispatcher how it had actually departed before the departure time.

 

[Taunton]

I think the practice of locking doors 2 minutes early for long distance trains and 1 minute early for local trains is fair enough to ensure a punctual railway.

How is it that a different process is needed to ensure punctuality at the first departure station, compared to stops down the route where the total duration may not even be two minutes. It's not as if it's the passenger load; leaving Waterloo nowadays it often seems far more board at Clapham Junction that at the start point.

An increasing likelihood nowadays about last-second rushers is the increase in frequency, changing from people getting to the station well in time because otherwise it will be a long wait. Once frequencies get to two or three an hour, people just turn up in a steady stream for "the next one", instead of for specific departures, or even if they are going for a certain one, the one before may not have left yet, thus increasing the last minute boarders.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have once been stood next to a static Voyager for some time discussing with the dispatcher how it had actually departed before the departure time.

Eh?

 

[alistairlees]

Eh?

The actual time of departure was before the scheduled time of departure.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The actual time of departure was before the scheduled time of departure.

An attempt, perhaps, to fudge punctuality targets?

 

[Horizon22]

I press 'doors close' at T-12 seconds, get interlock, check the monitors, check the signal, and wheels move on the dot.
Up to 1 minute with all the bat waving and ding ding station staff and guard stuff isn't unrealistic, but anything longer is just a bum-covering, inefficient, lazy, customer-unfriendly way to meet targets and shouldn't be allowed.

As you're a driver, that's a shockingly non-chalant way to explain a safety-critical station-guard dispatch process. Sure you just pull away at the end of the process, but there's a fait bit to check beforehand.

 

[whoosh]

@Horizon22

Edited:

Yes it was a bit nonchalant, what I meant was that it does take longer with Station Staff and Guards as there are more people and steps involved.
It shouldn't take that much longer though.

The point is, there's been a tendancy to keep increasing the time that doors may be closed from:
From "upto 30 seconds before",
To "upto 40 seconds before",
To "upto 1 minute before,"
To "upto 2 minutes before."

Then the railway claim the trains are on time. They aren't, they are running early!

Now there's a load of utter nonsense about being there, "15 minutes before".

Personally, I'm rather disappointed that Blackpool North isn't on Great Western Railway's network, as that could've been an entertaining exchange!

 

[AlterEgo]

This entire thread of outrage appears to be based on one tweet by one customer service person, unless I am mistaken?

Yeah it’s just a poorly worded response. Clearly they wanted to tell the person to turn up early, which is good advice for the average customer turning up at a busy London terminus. Then they’ve said “15 minutes” which has got everyone’s knickers in a twist.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As a non regular air traveller, I've had that before and it really bugs me. I remember once it caused me a panic as it had taken a long time to get through check in and security, saw gate closing, run to the gate, only to see that the plane wasn't there, and the staff not even there yet. I was not happy!

Exactly what happened to us on Thursday at Heathrow T5. "Hurry up and wait"

Herded into a too-small gate area (social distancing, what's that?) and then kept waiting for 20 minutes while they fix an IT problem. Then on a jolly bus ride to tje plsne which seemed to take almost as long as the flight.

And then at the waiting half an hour for our bags whilst hearing announcementd every 5 minutes enjoining us to leave the baggage hall promptly to monimise crowding. Delay so great each carousel had 2 or 3 flights waiting.

Should have taken the ferry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2021 ==

I have been in contact with GWR as one guard decided to close the doors 1 min 30 secs before departures (much more than 40 seconds they advertise!), and the customer support gave this reason:



To me it seems ridiculous to ask passengers to arrive 15 mins early!

Thankfully, I haven't seen it, but does anyone have any ideas what health and safety procedures require train doors to be closed 15 mins before departure?

"15 minuets". Given the customer services person obviously didn't rectify at least one typo, maybe they meant 1.5 minutes, not 15?

 

[James James]

Lots of talk, but no one has managed to explain why the UK insists on these standards when most of Europe gets by without it. (Amtrak examples aren't great given those are often multi-day journeys...)

Airport comparisons also aren't relevant given there's no security check at the train station (unless you go to China), and note that most regular travellers will do online checkin too... Funnily enough some airports in the UK do actually have an "arrived at security" time cutoff, which the rest of the world also doesn't bother with either. Similar attitude of customer's are an inconvenience I guess... Then again, go take a turboprop flight in e.g. New Zealand and you can arrive at the airport 15 minutes before departure and reasonably expect to catch your flight, and there's a lot more process involved in that (they have to lock up the doors by hand, remove the steps, check the apron is clear, etc. - whereas trains are pretty much lock and go if the signals are set).

 

[Horizon22]

Lots of talk, but no one has managed to explain why the UK insists on these standards when most of Europe gets by without it. (Amtrak examples aren't great given those are often multi-day journeys...)

Probably because the public departure time and the working timetable (WTT) are often a minute apart. Sometimes that happens here, but not often. We could do this by making every train a minute "earlier" on CIS screens but that may add its own confusion.

 

[miklcct]

But then everyone on the train will complain that it always departs 2 minutes late.

Nobody expects to be able to board planes or boats up to the listed departure time, so I don't understand why a minority think they should with trains.

Actually, in most of the world passengers do expect to be able to board up until time of departure. The extreme example is of course Japan where they apologise when the train goes 20s early. The UK is the outlier, and not in a good way (along with many other factors which make train travel in the UK a pain compared to elsewhere).

Also that analogy is a bit silly given that planes and boats tend to be used for longer journeys, and also given that... the boats local to me let you board up until listed departure time.

I used to live in a place where the stated departure times of ferries refer to the gate closing time, and I commonly ran into the pier within the last minute due to preceding traffic congestion despite I should have about 3 minutes of leeway to make the ferry connection.

Now in the UK I mainly use the minimum connection time of the station as a guidance how early I should arrive at the station on order to catch a train, which means I will aim for 5 minutes before departure if I need to take a particular departure.

 

[island]

Probably because the public departure time and the working timetable (WTT) are often a minute apart. Sometimes that happens here, but not often. We could do this by making every train a minute "earlier" on CIS screens but that may add its own confusion.

Yes, over time passengers simply realise a departure time of 18:17 really "means" the train sets off a bit after 18:18 and will work that into their expectations.

 

[AlterEgo]

Lots of talk, but no one has managed to explain why the UK insists on these standards when most of Europe gets by without it. (Amtrak examples aren't great given those are often multi-day journeys...)

The Amtrak example is often spurious as many services offer checked baggage. Amtrak services often have much longer dwell times as a result.

 

[xotGD]

This wasn't a problem back when you could just open the door and get on the train. Even after it had already departed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Threads like this, (and there‘ve been quite a few), often drift towards this argument about why the doors should not close until the exact time on the displays. I don’t believe the railway has ever operated like that, and doesn’t need to if people exercise common sense.

There would however be basically no disadvantage to anyone (other than excessively picky people stood there tapping their pocket watch if the wheels don't start turning at the exact second specified) if the railway did switch to operating like that, and it would have considerable advantages.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2021 ==

This wasn't a problem back when you could just open the door and get on the train. Even after it had already departed.

It probably was a problem to the people who died doing this, and their families and friends, though.

 

[Class83]

Eh?

We were standing on the platform, the train was on the track, not moving. The door could have been opened, a number of passengers boarded, then the door closed, in the time between me getting to the platform and the train actually moving anywhere. It was before the stated time of departure.

 

[James James]

Probably because the public departure time and the working timetable (WTT) are often a minute apart. Sometimes that happens here, but not often. We could do this by making every train a minute "earlier" on CIS screens but that may add its own confusion.

Nope - I don't think that's the answer, at least not universally - the Swiss procedure is activate door closing at the published time, and go once locked. If it's an accompanied train instead: the conductor activates door closing (except for their door), checks everythings good, boards and locks their door, and tells the driver they can go (by app/SMS).

Clearly the timetables for accompanied trains do account for time taken to do the dispatch - but they already have to account for many other related factors such as the rolling stock being used... in other words, dispatch time is simply part and parcel of travel time.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Having been at travelling by rail for a long time now on All line rovers at least 3 a year and others.
Why do TOCs not let you on trains in some cases till the last minute before departure?
I have seen people being hurried along, with children, luggage , wheelchairs lots of people for the train.
Trains that are 10 coaches or more the front is a long walk to the front of the train.
needless to say I can think of several occasions where this has happened and the train has left at least 10 late.
I should say that said trains have been in the station a fair while.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Having been at travelling by rail for a long time now on All line rovers at least 3 a year and others.
Why do TOCs not let you on trains in some cases till the last minute before departure?
I have seen people being hurried along, with children, luggage , wheelchairs lots of people for the train.
Trains that are 10 coaches or more the front is a long walk to the front of the train.
needless to say I can think of several occasions where this has happened and the train has left at least 10 late.
I should say that said trains have been in the station a fair while.

I caught the 10.3x semi-fast Liverpool Lime St. to Blackpool a couple of weekends ago.

I arrived at least 15 minutes prior to find the train at the platform, a fairly big crowd already there. Doors were unlocked less than two minutes before departure, by which time the platform was absolutely packed...... why?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having been at travelling by rail for a long time now on All line rovers at least 3 a year and others.
Why do TOCs not let you on trains in some cases till the last minute before departure?
I have seen people being hurried along, with children, luggage , wheelchairs lots of people for the train.
Trains that are 10 coaches or more the front is a long walk to the front of the train.
needless to say I can think of several occasions where this has happened and the train has left at least 10 late.
I should say that said trains have been in the station a fair while.

Largely because of excessively tight crew diagramming and it not being allowed by most TOCs to have passengers on a train without either one or both of the crew (depending on TOC).

 

[NoRoute]

Having been at travelling by rail for a long time now on All line rovers at least 3 a year and others.
Why do TOCs not let you on trains in some cases till the last minute before departure?

I was thinking much along the same lines, happy to arrive in plenty of time so long as there's the same obligation on the railway companies to have their train in the terminal, with the platform announced, doors open and available to board at the same time.

It's not just the issue with waiting until the doors are opened, I've caught a number of trains out of Euston where the platform isn't shown until the last minute prior to departure, which then results in an almighty torrent of people flooding down the ramps to the platform because there's next to no time until the scheduled departure time. It's very poor, particularly for those passengers with less mobility or who need support. Surprised it hasn't been flagged up in a risk assessment and triggered some action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder have the pseudocompulsory reservations reduced the Euston scrum (and its Kings Cross cousin) as far more people will have a reservation than usual?

 

[Grumpy Git]

I wonder have the pseudocompulsory reservations reduced the Euston scrum (and its Kings Cross cousin) as far more people will have a reservation than usual?

Was the Euston scrum a problem when Gideon was MP for Tatton, (assuming he used the train to get to his constituency)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was the Euston scrum a problem when Gideon was MP for Tatton, (assuming he used the train to get to his constituency)?

Took me a while to realise what you meant, but for Avanti/Virgin/InterCity services it's been a thing as long as I can remember, including back to being a kid. Ben Elton even did a comedy sketch about it in the 90s - "double seat, double seat, gotta get a double seat".

It being a thing on suburban services out of Euston is more recent, as practice up to Network Rail taking over operating the departure board from Virgin in the mid 2000s was that platform numbers of suburban services were never suppressed, and indeed were shown on paper posters in a few locations around the station and on the exit from the Tube so you could decide whether to go straight on or left on exit (where there is now a departure screen was just a paper sheet, and I *think* before that a manually controlled LED display showing "Euston Suburban Departures"). However it's more of an issue for off peak services than commuter services, as commuters tend to know their regular platform and just go there regardless of if it's on the displays or not. When the 1823 fast Northampton was my regular, it always went off 16 (I only recall it ever not doing once, cue lots of confused faces!), and the train would very often be nearly full in seating terms before it went anywhere near the displays.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's also a thing at Waterloo, where suburban services are often not displayed on the screens until a couple of minutes before scheduled departure. This results in overcrowding on the concourse (whilst the three-quarters of the station beyond the barriers is deserted), and consequently makes it harder for people to reach their platform when it's announced. As counter peak travel is now quite common, people trying to reach the train get into a scrum at the barriers with those who have just left it. Once past that obstacle, the imminent scheduled departure time means everyone piles into the nearest (rear) carriages, making them very crowded and causing difficulties for the less fleet of foot (or those who were simply furthest from the right platform) to board at all before the doors are shut in their faces.
SWT/SWR's don't announce the train before it arrives, but this really doesn't make sense - at other stations on their network trains can be displayed up to 89 minutes ahead (2tph, next three trains shown), although I can see that at Waterloo it makes sense not to announce the platform until the previous train has vacated it. In the rare event of a platform alteration people would have to go to another platform, but as the concourse would be less congested if everyone else was on the platforms, waiting for their trains, this would not be difficult.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Boarding the train at the last minute also unfairly disadvantages anyone who has made the effort to be there in good time. Late arrivals are often very adept at getting to the doors first.

 

[davews]

And when they used to have the extra peak trains on the Reading line, you were stood waiting in the International area for the platform number to appear, and when it does just 2 minutes before departure there is a mad scramble to platform 16, certainly not easy for those not so fleet of foot.

 

[James James]

Boarding the train at the last minute also unfairly disadvantages anyone who has made the effort to be there in good time. Late arrivals are often very adept at getting to the doors first.

That's preposterous - by your logic you might as well never even unlock the doors because whoever gets to board last before the scheduled door-closing time gets an unfair advantage. (To illustrate: doors close on published departure time - those who arrive in the last minute are advantaged, so let's move door closing to 1 minute earlier... now those arriving in the 2nd-last minute are advantaged. So let's move door closing to 2 minutes earlier... oh wait, why not just never let anyone on to be fair.) To be honest it's the early arrivers who get the advantage as they get to pick the best seats, which is much more important for anything over 15 minutes.

And I'm still waiting for an explanation of why e.g. the Swiss (and in fact most of europe I think) can include dispatch time as part of the travel time when the UK can't? (I know which system is more logical and easy to understand as a passenger...)