How could rail services be improved in the Manchester area?

[Philip]

The focus is always on Castlefield, but why not look at improving the Denton line as an alternative route into Manchester and beyond, and so reducing the number of trains through Castlefield?

Line speed improvements would be needed as I think the Denton line is currently limited to 50mph. If this happens then I don't see why all fast services from Sheffield couldn't run into Victoria via Denton, with some continuing to Liverpool or wherever. It wouldn't involve much crossing of the tracks at Heaton Norris Junction in order to reach Stockport eastern platforms. The Alderley Edge to Southport is another service which could run this way, would also provide Wilmslow and Stockport with a direct link to Victoria.

 

[HSTEd]

The focus is always on Castlefield, but why not look at improving the Denton line as an alternative route into Manchester and beyond, and so reducing the number of trains through Castlefield?

Line speed improvements would be needed as I think the Denton line is currently limited to 50mph. If this happens then I don't see why all fast services from Sheffield couldn't run into Victoria via Denton, with some continuing to Liverpool or wherever. It wouldn't involve much crossing of the tracks at Heaton Norris Junction in order to reach Stockport eastern platforms. The Alderley Edge to Southport is another service which could run this way, would also provide Wilmslow and Stockport with a direct link to Victoria.

Because ultimately the stations people want to go to are more Picadilly and Oxford Road than Victoria.

 

[JonathanH]

Because ultimately the stations people want to go to are more Picadilly and Oxford Road than Victoria.

...and they want to get there quickly rather than going on a tour of East Manchester.

Moreover, Victoria doesn't have spare capacity either.

 

[Philip]

...and they want to get there quickly rather than going on a tour of East Manchester.

Moreover, Victoria doesn't have spare capacity either.

It does for through services. As I said, with an increased line speed up to 90mph, via Denton wouldn't be much of a time loss compared with the current route.

 

[JonathanH]

It does for through services. As I said, with an increased line speed up to 90mph, via Denton wouldn't be much of a time loss compared with the current route.

Is it practical to upgrade the relevant lines to 90mph? It seems a bit improbable.

 

[Bevan Price]

As I and others have commented before, the main problem is politicians, who all want here, there and everywhere else to have through services to / from the Airport, when the most sensible idea would be to have dedicated shuttles between the city centre and the airport (as happens with London to/from Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted). A mixture of long distance destinations to/from the airport is always going to create problems with punctuality, and consequent congestion. Unless / until someone can overrule the politicians, there will always be problems with Manchester area services.

 

[tbtc]

Line speed improvements would be needed as I think the Denton line is currently limited to 50mph. If this happens then I don't see why all fast services from Sheffield couldn't run into Victoria via Denton

I honestly don't mind which station Sheffield's services run to in central Manchester, as long as they serve central Manchester (and I'm pretty neutral on any suggestions for extensions beyond central Manchester if any) - but the problem is that if a Sheffield - Stockport service took a big dog-leg back east via the outskirts of Ashton before heading west again to get into Manchester then they wouldn't be "fast" services any more

Diverting services away from the congested Piccadilly throat sounds great (and anyone from Sheffield wanting Piccadilly/ Castlefield specifically rather than just "central Manchester" could always change at Stockport, sure), but I think you'd have to spend A LOT of money to get the line through Denton fast enough to make up for that big dog-leg (and the service between the two cities is slow enough as it is!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

...which is why we also have the nonsense of the "nine trains per hour on the Airport branch but with gaps of up to seventeen minutes, because the large mix of hourly services mean that they can't be well co-ordinated

How does that compare with the "x trains per hour" to other similar sized large British airports?

 

[Manutd1999]

As I and others have commented before, the main problem is politicians, who all want here, there and everywhere else to have through services to / from the Airport, when the most sensible idea would be to have dedicated shuttles between the city centre and the airport (as happens with London to/from Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted).

I largely agree with this, but I think there is a case for regular services to some of the towns around Manchester. There are several groups of people who may need to travel to Manchester airport:

- Airport workers, who may live in/around central Manchester but also in places like Warrington, Bolton, Wigan etc
- Frequent flyers (eg, those travelling for business).The vast majority of these people will also be from the Manchester area
- "Bucket and spade" type travellers going on holiday. Again, mostly Manchester based as Leeds/Newcastle/Liverpool airports offer a wide range of leisure services.
- Long-haul travellers, whch could be coming from across the north.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but I sense that the first two groups listed above are much more likely to use the train. With that assumption, maybe something like this would be better than the status quo:

2x Crewe - Airport - Piccadilly
2x Airport - Castlefield - Warrington - Liverpool
2x Airport - Castlefield - Victoria - Rochdale
2x Airport - Castlefield - Victoria - Stalybridge
2x Airport - Castlefield - Bolton - Wigan - Southport

That's 10x Styal line services, of which 8 continue onto Castlefield, plus 1ph freight. Crucially through, these could all skip-stop along the Styal line (2-3 stations each) as there are no 'express' services. So the timetable could be much more evenly spaced, removing the current gaps of 15 mins+.

Most of the towns close to Manchester (Bolton, Wigan, Warrington, Rochdale etc) would have a half-hourly service to the airport and there would be a clock-face 4ph service from Victoria, allowing easy connections to long-distance services.

Added to that, there would be 2x Sheffield-Liverpool services and 2x Oxford Road stoppers (probably to Blackpool) through Castlefield, giving a total of 13ph, which I believe is about the upper limit of what is possible?

The Scotland and Lake District TPE services, TfW service (ideally combined with a Chester-Victoria-Leeds) and the 4ph TPE 'fasts' from Leeds would all run via and/or terminate at Victoria. Granted this would stretch platform capacity at Victoria, but adding a turnback/siding to the east is possibly the easiest of all the possible infrastructure additions proposed?

In an ideal world, the TPE services could even join up to form a Scotland/Lakes - Manchester - Leeds - York routing. Although that is perhaps not the most sensible from a reliability point of view

 

[30907]

It does for through services. As I said, with an increased line speed up to 90mph, via Denton wouldn't be much of a time loss compared with the current route.

The other issue, for Manchester-bound trains, is Heaton Norris Junction. And you then have to decide what to do with the Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester service, which really can't avoid Castlefield.

 

[faltskog36abba]

The focus is always on Castlefield, but why not look at improving the Denton line as an alternative route into Manchester and beyond, and so reducing the number of trains through Castlefield?

Line speed improvements would be needed as I think the Denton line is currently limited to 50mph. If this happens then I don't see why all fast services from Sheffield couldn't run into Victoria via Denton, with some continuing to Liverpool or wherever. It wouldn't involve much crossing of the tracks at Heaton Norris Junction in order to reach Stockport eastern platforms. The Alderley Edge to Southport is another service which could run this way, would also provide Wilmslow and Stockport with a direct link to Victoria.

I think a local Stockport to Victoria train would be useful- As It would serve Denton and Reddish south. I have been on that route from Nottingham to Victoria and it added an extra 25 minutes to the journey.

There was talk of sending 2 trains per hour to Manchester from the east midlands[Manchester Hub rail study] 2009]. Trains would go via Hyde and Ashbury's and Philips park in to Victoria- One train to the Airport and one to Preston or Liverpool.

This wasn't carried forward as they skipped Stockport or non available paths.

 

[Purple Orange]

It does for through services. As I said, with an increased line speed up to 90mph, via Denton wouldn't be much of a time loss compared with the current route.

How much would it cost to upgrade the Denton line to 90 mph? And would it be better to spend that capital on improving capacity in to Piccadilly?

 

[HSTEd]

That's 10x Styal line services, of which 8 continue onto Castlefield, plus 1ph freight. Crucially through, these could all skip-stop along the Styal line (2-3 stations each) as there are no 'express' services. So the timetable could be much more evenly spaced, removing the current gaps of 15 mins+.

Do we have to skip stop?

Given that people want direct trains to the airport because of convenience rather than speed (at least to some degree), why can't we just make every train to the airport stop all shacks?

The Styal Line then becomes a defacto metro line.

 

[Manutd1999]

Do we have to skip stop?

Given that people want direct trains to the airport because of convenience rather than speed (at least to some degree), why can't we just make every train to the airport stop all shacks?

The Styal Line then becomes a defacto metro line.

You could do, but ~8 ph from East Didsbury etc seems a bit excessive. Having each train call at 2-3 stops would still give ~4ph from each station.

 

[billio]

Because ultimately the stations people want to go to are more Picadilly and Oxford Road than Victoria.

Possibly because (at the moment) there are not many direct services into Victoria from Stockport. Going direct to Victoria would provide access to the part of the city and improve connections to the north of Manchester on Metrolink or the Rochdale line. Although not relevant to the Denton line, Improving heavy rail access to the east of central Manchester, such as around the Etihad, and into Victoria would be worth further consideration. This could provide another destination for through diesel services, or with some wiring in the long term, some electric services.

 

[HSTEd]

You could do, but ~8 ph from East Didsbury etc seems a bit excessive. Having each train call at 2-3 stops would still give ~4ph from each station.

Yes, but would also render the line far less useful to people.

 

[HST43257]

Why not just have 4 all stoppers and 4 non stoppers? Helps separate Airport traffic and intermediate point traffic

 

[BrianW]

Yes, but would also render the line far less useful to people.

Why not just have 4 all stoppers and 4 non stoppers? Helps separate Airport traffic and intermediate point traffic

I understand the 'value' of skip-stop regarding end-to-end timings but useless for intermediate journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understand the 'value' of skip-stop regarding end-to-end timings but useless for intermediate journeys.

Is there much demand for intermediate journeys on the line, though, particularly with the 50 bus paralleling the busier part of it?

 

[HSTEd]

Is there much demand for intermediate journeys on the line, though, particularly with the 50 bus paralleling the busier part of it?

Well two extremely bus corridors largely (at least in network terms) parallel it.

It's effectively parallel with the 14x/4x bus corridor over significant portions of its length, and it would be dramatically quicker than the bus.

Bulk passenger movement in an urban environment is still something that trains tend to do better than buses - even with the bus improvements on the Oxford Road corridor you spend more time stopped than moving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well two extremely bus corridors largely (at least in network terms) parallel it.

It's effectively parallel with the 14x/4x bus corridor over significant portions of its length, and it would be dramatically quicker than the bus.

From extensive experience as a student there it is not in any way relevant to the 4x/14x routes, and still wouldn't be if there was an all stations train every 10 minutes. Yes, they come together at Parr's Wood, but most 4x/14x run near empty at least as far as Didsbury Village. Further up it runs too far away from the Wilmslow Road to be useful, and don't forget that the primary traffic objective there is the university, not the city centre, and so you would lose time getting there from Oxford Road or even worse Piccadilly (it is about 10 minutes walk).

The 50 is the only bus route really relevant, and as the Upper Brook St route is not as congested it isn't as slow as the 4x/14x. It runs every 10 minutes from closer to home than the train.

Bulk passenger movement in an urban environment is still something that trains tend to do better than buses - even with the bus improvements on the Oxford Road corridor you spend more time stopped than moving.

The Oxford Road corridor isn't really of any relevance, the only way to get that onto any form of rail would be a street tramway.

 

[HSTEd]

From extensive experience as a student there it is not in any way relevant to the 4x/14x routes, and still wouldn't be if there was an all stations train every 10 minutes.

I agree with the first part of this statement, but not really with the second - from my also extensive and ongoing experience as a student in Manchester!

Yes, they come together at Parr's Wood, but most 4x/14x run near empty at least as far as Didsbury Village. Further up it runs too far away from the Wilmslow Road to be useful, and don't forget that the primary traffic objective there is the university, not the city centre, and so you would lose time getting there from Oxford Road or even worse Piccadilly (it is about 10 minutes walk).

Whilst there is an enormous amount of traffic between Fallowfield and the University Campus there is a superimposed traffic load into the city centre.

Because we can't have proper differentiation of bus routes on the corridor they get mixed up and it all slows to a crawl.

A rail solution allows the traffic from further out to jump over the intervening road space - and whilst it is a fraction of the total traffic it is still a lot in absolute terms.

If going into the city centre even from Fallowfield it would be substantially faster to walk to Mauldeth Road and take the train.

 

[nr758123]

I think a local Stockport to Victoria train would be useful- As It would serve Denton and Reddish south. I have been on that route from Nottingham to Victoria and it added an extra 25 minutes to the journey.

Denton station is next to a motorway sliproad in a location which is difficult to access either by car or on foot, and remote from both the town centre and residential areas. From much of Denton, Guide Bridge station is easier to get to than Denton station, and has 3 or 4 trains an hour taking 11 to 14 minutes. One train an hour from Denton station taking twice as long is hardly going to be an attractive alternative.

Reddish South is within 1½ miles of two other stations which already have a frequent service into Piccadilly.

I'm really not sure how a new service via Reddish South and Denton to Victoria, with journey times and frequencies which are uncompetitive with existing services from nearby stations, solves a problem or improves the public transport provision for Denton or Reddish.

It would, however, add more trains to already congested locations such as Heaton Norris Junction and the route between Ashton Moss and Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with the first part of this statement, but not really with the second - from my also extensive and ongoing experience as a student in Manchester!

...

If going into the city centre even from Fallowfield it would be substantially faster to walk to Mauldeth Road and take the train.

You are also a poster on a railway forum. You can be sure of it that the only students who would even consider walking from Owens Park and thereabouts to Mauldeth Road, take a train to Oxford Road (potentially involving a change) and then walk down to the uni, rather than take a direct bus (or walk/cycle all the way as many do), are the rail enthusiasts.

Also don't forget that Spicehead Central, sorry, Piccadilly Gardens Bus Station, is about 5-10 minutes closer to the main shopping area than any of the railway stations, particularly if your train goes into 13/14.

Also don't forget that (and I know I want to solve this!) the bus is very considerably cheaper.

Mauldeth Road is not relevant to the (1)4x corridor, and to think it is is really a rail enthusiast dreamworld.

 

[daodao]

Why not just have 4 all stoppers and 4 non stoppers? Helps separate Airport traffic and intermediate point traffic

A sensible suggestion, with which I agree.

Is there much demand for intermediate journeys on the line, though, particularly with the 50 bus paralleling the busier part of it?

There are no longer any bus services from Heald Green or Gatley to Manchester; bus services south of Parrs Wood are sparse.

 

[The Planner]

How are 4 stoppers and 4 non stoppers going to fit (answer is they won't) The non stopper is just going to catch it up. A stopper takes 21 minutes Picc to the Airport so the non stopper can't arrive until 3 or 4 minutes after.

 

[HSTEd]

You are also a poster on a railway forum. You can be sure of it that the only students who would even consider walking from Owens Park and thereabouts to Mauldeth Road, take a train to Oxford Road (potentially involving a change) and then walk down to the uni, rather than take a direct bus (or walk/cycle all the way as many do), are the rail enthusiasts.

Who said we were going to the Uni?

People in Fallowfield do go to other places?

Also worth noting that the centre of population of Fallowfield has moved a couple hundred metres further East with the completion of the new accomodation on the University campus.

Also don't forget that Spicehead Central, sorry, Piccadilly Gardens Bus Station, is about 5-10 minutes closer to the main shopping area than any of the railway stations, particularly if your train goes into 13/14.

And you will lose all that time stuck in a traffic jam outside the Polish consulate.

Also don't forget that (and I know I want to solve this!) the bus is very considerably cheaper.

In a couple of years time this will cease to be an issue, bus fares will be set by state fiat, the same as railway fares.

 

[daodao]

How are 4 stoppers and 4 non stoppers going to fit (answer is they won't) The non stopper is just going to catch it up. A stopper takes 21 minutes Picc to the Airport so the non stopper can't arrive until 3 or 4 minutes after.

Entirely feasible. Non-stop trains are scheduled to take 15 minutes and stopping trains (calling at 5 stops) 22 minutes. If a non-stop train departs at 0000, it will arrive at 0015, the stopping train can depart at 0004 and arrive at 0026, the next fast train can depart at 0015 and arrive at 0030 etc.

 

[The Planner]

Entirely feasible. Non-stop trains are scheduled to take 15 minutes and stopping trains (calling at 5 stops) 22 minutes. If a non-stop train departs at 0000, it will arrive at 0015, the stopping train can depart at 0004 and arrive at 0026, the next fast train can depart at 0015 and arrive at 0030 etc.

Fair enough, not exactly resilient though is it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are no longer any bus services from Heald Green or Gatley to Manchester; bus services south of Parrs Wood are sparse.

I meant more between the stations rather than to Manchester and the Airport from each where demand clearly does exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2021 ==

Who said we were going to the Uni?

People in Fallowfield do go to other places?

Also worth noting that the centre of population of Fallowfield has moved a couple hundred metres further East with the completion of the new accomodation on the University campus.

Still won't happen. Do a survey around your fellow students who are not rail enthusiasts.

Those who live nearer the 50 will use that, they still won't walk 1km+ to Mauldeth Road station. (500m is what is generally regarded as the most most people will walk to public transport).

Actually, in a way it is funny we are talking about Mauldeth Road at all - Levenshulme is slightly closer to the Fallowfield campus.

If you added a new Styal Line station near the double roundabout that would be close enough to be used, I reckon, but that would exascerbate the issue.

And you will lose all that time stuck in a traffic jam outside the Polish consulate.

During which time you can sit and play with your phone.

In a couple of years time this will cease to be an issue, bus fares will be set by state fiat, the same as railway fares.

We shall see. In London, where they are, bus travel is still massively cheaper than rail.